While I disagree with Nate on a wide variety of topics (including implicit claims in this post), I do want to explicitly highlight strong agreement with this:
I have a whole spiel about how your conversation-partner will react very differently if you share your concerns while feeling ashamed about them versus if you share your concerns as if they’re obvious and sensible, because humans are very good at picking up on your social cues. If you act as if it’s shameful to believe AI will kill us all, people are more prone to treat you that way. If you act as if it’s an obvious serious threat, they’re more likely to take it seriously too.
The position that is "obvious and sensible" doesn't have to be "if anyone builds it, everyone dies". I don't believe that position. It could instead be "there is a real threat model for existential risk, and it is important that society does more to address it than it is currently doing". If you're going to share concerns at all, figure out the position you do have courage in, and then discuss that as if it is obvious and sensible, not as if you are ashamed of it.
(Note that I am not convinced that you should always be sharing your concerns. This is a claim about how you should share concerns, conditional on having decided that you are going to share them.)
It could instead be "there is a real threat model for existential risk, and it is important that society does more to address it than it is currently doing". If you're going to share concerns at all, figure out the position you do have courage in, and then discuss that as if it is obvious and sensible, not as if you are ashamed of it.
The potential failure mode I see with this is that, if you're not paying sufficient attention to your rhetoric, you run the risk of activating people's anti-Pascal's mugging instincts.[1] As Jeremy Gillen said:
Everyone is pretty frequently bombarded with wild arguments and beliefs that have crazy implications. Like conspiracy theories, political claims, spiritual claims, get-rich-quick schemes, scientific discoveries, news headlines, mental health and wellness claims, alternative medicine, claims about which lifestyles are better. We don't often have the time (nor expertise or skill or sometimes intelligence) to evaluate them properly.
"You should pay attention to this even if you think there's a really small chance of it happening because if it does happen, the consequences will be massive" is something most people hear pretty regularly. In lieu o...
I don't think most anyone who's studied the issues at hand thinks the chance of danger is "really small", even among people who disagree with me quite a lot (see e.g. here). I think folks who retreat to arguments like "you should pay attention to this even if you think there's a really small chance of it happening" are doing a bunch of damage, and this is one of many problems I attribute to a lack of this "courage" stuff I'm trying to describe.
When I speak of "finding a position you have courage in", I do not mean "find a position that you think should be logically unassailable." I'm apparently not doing a very good job at transmitting the concept, but here's some positive and negative examples:
✓ "The race towards superintelligence is ridiculously risky and I don't think humanity should be doing it."
✓ "I'm not talking about a tiny risk. On my model, this is your most likely cause of death."
✓ "Oh I think nobody should be allowed to race towards superintelligence, but I'm trying to build it anyway because I think I'll do it better than the next guy. Ideally all AI companies in the world should be shut down, though, because we'd need way more time to do this properly." (The action i...
Both Soares and me get mixed reviews for our social presentation, so you might want to take all this with a grain of salt. But here's my two cents of response.
I agree it's good to not seem ashamed of something you're saying. I think this is mostly a special case of how it's good to be personally confident. (See Soares here for some good advice on what it means to be confident in a confusing situation.) One reason is that it's really helpful to convey to your conversational partner that, despite the fact you're interested in what they think, you'll be fine and chill regardless of how they respond to you; this lets them relax and e.g. say their true objections if they want to.
But I think it's generally a mistake to act as if beliefs are "obvious" if in fact they aren't obvious to your audience. That is, I think that you should talk differently when saying the following different types of statements:
I agree that it's usually helpful and kind to model your conversation-partner's belief-state (and act accordingly).
And for the avoidance of doubt: I am not advocating that anyone pretend they think something is obvious when they in fact do not.
By "share your concerns as if they’re obvious and sensible", I was primarily attempting to communicate something more like: I think it's easy for LessWrong locals to get lost in arguments like whether AI might go fine because we're all in a simulation anyway, or confused by turf wars about whether AI has a 90+% chance of killing us or "only" a ~25% chance. If someone leans towards the 90+% model and gets asked their thoughts on AI, I think it's worse for them to answer in a fashion that's all wobbly and uncertain because they don't want to be seen as overconfident against the 25%ers, and better for them to connect back to the part where this whole situation (where companies are trying to build machine superintelligence with very little idea of what they're doing) is wacky and insane and reckless, and speak from there.
I don't think one should condescend about the obviousness of it. I do think that this community is generally dramatically faili...
I do think that this community is generally dramatically failing to make the argument "humanity is building machine superintelligence while having very little idea of what it's doing, and that's just pretty crazy on its face" because it keeps getting lost in the weeds (or in local turf wars).
I don't think the weed/local turf wars really cause the problems here, why do you think that?
The weeds/local turf wars seem like way smaller problems for AI-safety-concerned people communicating that the situation seems crazy than e.g. the fact that a bunch of the AI safety people work at AI companies.
And I was secondarily attempting to communicate something like: I think our friends in the policy world tend to cede far too much social ground.
Idk, seems plausible.
I don't think the weed/local turf wars really cause the problems here, why do you think that?
The hypothesized effect is: people who have been engaged in the weeds/turf wars think of themselves as "uncertain" (between e.g. the 25%ers and the 90+%ers) and forget that they're actually quite confident about some proposition like "this whole situation is reckless and crazy and Earth would be way better off if we stopped". And then there's a disconnect where (e.g.) an elected official asks a local how bad things look, and they answer while mentally inhabiting the uncertain position ("well I'm not sure whether it's 25%ish or 90%ish risk"), and all they manage to communicate is a bunch of wishy-washy uncertainty. And (on this theory) they'd do a bunch better if they set aside all the local disagreements and went back to the prima-facie "obvious" recklessness/insanity of the situation and tried to communicate about that first. (It is, I think, usually the most significant part to communicate!)
Whoa, this seems very implausible to me. Speaking with the courage of one's convictions in situations which feel high-stakes is an extremely high bar, and I know of few people who I'd describe as consistently doing this.
If you don't know anyone who isn't in this category, consider whether your standards for this are far too low.
Huh! I've been in various conversations with elected officials and have had the sense that most people speak without the courage of their convictions (which is not quite the same thing as "confidence", but which is more what the post is about, and which is the property I'm more interested in discussing in this comment section, and one factor of the lack of courage is broadcasting uncertainty about things like "25% vs 90+%" when they could instead be broadcasting confidence about "this is ridiculous and should stop"). In my experience, it's common to the point of others expressing explicit surprise when someone does and it works (as per the anecdote in the post).
I am uncertain to what degree we're seeing very different conversations, versus to what degree I just haven't communicated the phenomena I'm talking about, versus to what degree we're making different inferences from similar observations.
I don't think your anecdote supports that it's important to have the courage of your convictions when talking. I think the people I know who worked on SB-1047 are totally happy to say "it's ridiculous that these companies don't have any of the types of constraints that might help mitigate extreme risks from their work" without wavering because of the 25%-vs-90% thing. I interpret your anecdote as being evidence about which AI-concerned-beliefs go over well, not about how you should say them. (Idk how important this is, np if you don't want to engage further.)
A few claims from the post (made at varying levels of explicitness) are:
1 . Often people are themselves motivated by concern X (ex: "the race to superintelligence is reckless and highly dangerous") and decide to talk about concern Y instead (ex: "AI-enabled biorisks"), perhaps because they think it is more palatable.
2 . Focusing on the "palatable" concerns is a pretty grave mistake.
2a. The claims Y are often not in fact more palatable; people are often pretty willing to talk about the concerns that actually motivate you.
2b. When people try talking about the concerns that actually motivate them while loudly signalling that they think their ideas are shameful and weird, this is not a terribly good test of claim (2a).
2c. Talking about claims other than the key ones comes at a steep opportunity cost.
2d. Talking about claims other than the key ones risks confusing people who are trying to make sense of the situation.
2e. Talking about claims other than the key ones risks making enemies of allies (when those would-be allies agree about the high-stakes issues and disagree about how to treat the mild stuff).
2f. Talking about claims other than the key ones triggers people's bullshit detector...
Ok. I don't think your original post is clear about which of these many different theses it has, or which points it thinks are evidence for other points, or how strongly you think any of them.
I don't know how to understand your thesis other than "in politics you should always pitch people by saying how the issue looks to you, Overton window or personalized persuasion style be damned". I think the strong version of this claim is obviously false. Though maybe it's good advice for you (because it matches your personality profile) and perhaps it's good advice for many/most of the people we know.
I think that making SB-1047 more restrictive would have made it less likely to pass, because it would have made it easier to attack and fewer people would agree that it's a step in the right direction. I don't understand who you think would have flipped from negative to positive on the bill based on it being stronger—surely not the AI companies and VCs who lobbyied against it and probably eventually persuaded Newsom to veto?
I feel like the core thing that we've seen in DC is that the Overton window has shifted, almost entirely as a result of AI capabilities getting better, and now people are both more receptive to some of these arguments and more willing to acknowledge their sympathy.
To be clear, my recommendation for SB-1047 was not "be basically the same bill but talk about extinction risks and levy a few more restrictions on the labs", but rather "focus very explicitly on the extinction threat; say 'this bill is trying to address a looming danger described by a variety of scientists and industry leaders' or suchlike, shape the bill differently to actually address the extinction threat straightforwardly".
I don't have a strong take on whether SB-1047 would have been more likely to pass in that world. My recollection is that, back when I attempted to give this advice, I said I thought it would make the bill less likely to pass but more likely to have good effects on the conversation (in addition to it being much more likely to matter in cases where it did pass). But that could easily be hindsight bias; it's been a few years. And post facto, the modern question of what is "more likely" depends a bunch on things like how stochastic you think Newsom is (we already observed that he vetoed the real bill, so I think there's a decent argument that a bill with different content has a better chance even if it's a lower than our a-priori odds on SB-1047), though that's a...
FWIW I broadcast the former rather than the latter because from the 25% perspective there are many possible worlds which the "stop" coalition ends up making much worse, and therefore I can't honestly broadcast "this is ridiculous and should stop" without being more specific about what I'd want from the stop coalition.
A (loose) analogy: leftists in Iran who confidently argued "the Shah's regime is ridiculous and should stop". It turned out that there was so much variance in how it stopped that this argument wasn't actually a good one to confidently broadcast, despite in some sense being correct.
Maybe it’s hard to communicate nuance, but it seems like there's a crazy thing going on where many people in the AI x-risk community think something like “Well obviously I wish it would stop, and the current situation does seem crazy and unacceptable by any normal standards of risk management. But there’s a lot of nuance in what I actually think we should do, and I don’t want to advocate for a harmful stop.”
And these people end up communicating to external people something like “Stopping is a naive strategy, and continuing (maybe with some safeguards etc) is my preferred strategy for now.”
This seems to miss out the really important part where they would actually want to stop if we could, but it seems hard and difficult/nuanced to get right.
Yeah, I agree that it's easy to err in that direction, and I've sometimes done so. Going forward I'm trying to more consistently say the "obviously I wish people just wouldn't do this" part.
Though note that even claims like "unacceptable by any normal standards of risk management" feel off to me. We're talking about the future of humanity, there is no normal standard of risk management. This should feel as silly as the US or UK invoking "normal standards of risk management" in debates over whether to join WW2.
Sorry for budging in, but I can't help but notice I agree with both what you and So8res are saying, but I think you aren't arguing about the same thing.
You seem to be talking about the dimension of "confidence," "obviousness," etc. and arguing that most proponents of AI concern seem to have enough of it, and shouldn't increase it too much.
So8res seems to be talking about another dimension which is harder to name. "Frank futuristicness" maybe? Though not really.
If you adjust your "frank futuristicness" to an absurdly high setting, you'll sound a bit crazy. You'll tell lawmakers "I'm not confident, and this isn't obvious, but I think that unless we pause AI right now, we risk a 50% chance of building a misaligned superintelligence. It might use nanobots to convert all the matter in the universe into paperclips, and the stars and galaxies will fade one by one."
But if you adjust your "frank futuristicness" to an absurdly low setting, you'll end up being ineffective. You'll say "I am confident, and this is obvious: we should regulate AI companies more because they are less regulated than other companies. For example the companies which research vaccines have to jump through so many clin...
I think that if it were to go ahead, it should have been made stronger and clearer. But this wouldn't have been politically feasible, and therefore if that were the standard being aimed for it wouldn't have gone ahead.
This I think would have been better than the outcome that actually happened.
(Considering how little cherry-picking they did.)
From my perspective, FWIW, the endorsements we got would have been surprising even if they had been maximally cherry-picked. You usually just can't find cherries like those.
Just commenting to say this post helped me build the courage to talk about AI risks around me more confidently and to stop thinking I needed to understand everything about it before saying I am deeply worried. Thanks Soares!
Hi there,
I just made an account to offer my anecdotes as an outside observer. I admit, I’m not well versed in the of AI, I’m only a college graduate with a focus on biomedicine. But as a person who found his way to this site following the 2023 letter about AI extinction, I’ve nearly constantly read as much information as I could process to understand the state and stakes of the AI Risk conversation. For what it’s worth, I applaud those who have the courage to speak about something that in the grand scheme of things is hard to discuss with people without sounding condescending, apathetic or crazy. For someone like me, who has trouble with expressing the blood chilling dread I feel reading AI related headlines, I have nothing but the upmost respect for those who may have an influence in guiding this timeline in to one that succeeds.
I just feel like the communication form well informed people gets marred buy the sense of incapabilty. What I mean by that is the average layperson will engage with a meme or a light post about the risks of AI, but then swiftly become disillusioned by the prosepect of not being able to influence anything. (An aside, this is essentially the same...
It's important for everyone to know that there are many things they can personally do to help steer the world onto a safer trajectory. I am a volunteer with PauseAI, and while I am very bad at grassroots organizing and lobbying, I still managed to start a local chapter and have some positive impact on my federal representative's office.
I suggest checking out PauseAI's Take Action page. I also strongly endorse ControlAI, who are more centralized and have an excellent newsletter.
Politicians were not understanding the bill as being about extinction threats; they were understanding the bill as being about regulatory capture of a normal budding technology industry.
Whether the bill is about extinction threats is nearly irrelevant; what’s important is what its first- and second-order effects will be. Any sensible politician will know of all kinds of cases where a bill’s (or constitutional amendment’s) full effects were either not known or explicitly disavowed by the bill’s proponents.
If you want to quell China fears here, you need to make the in-PRC push for this book a peer to the push for the American English one. Of course, the PRC takes a dim view of foreigners trying to bolster social movements, so — and I’m trying to not say this flippantly — good luck with that.
(I also think pushing this book’s pile of memes in China is a good idea because they’re probably about as capable of making AGI as we are, but that’s a separate issue.)
AI risk discussions are happening at elite and EU institutional levels, but in my experience they're not reaching regular European citizens, especially in Spain (where I'm originally from).
This is a major problem because politicians respond to what their constituents care about, and if people aren't talking about it, they won't demand action on it.
The crux of the issue is that most Europeans simply aren't familiar with AI risk arguments, so they're not discussing or prioritizing these issues among their circles. Without this kind of public awareness, further political action from the EU is unlikely, and will likely wane as AI gets more and more important in the economy.
I'd like to encourage you to translate the book into Spanish, French, German, and Italian could help bridge this gap.
Spanish would be especially valuable given its global reach, and how under-discussed these risks are among Spanish society. But the same point extends to other EU countries. There's almost no awareness of AI risks among citizens, and this book could change that completely.
I really like this.
I think AI concern can fail in two ways:
Being bolder increases the "losing argument" risk but decreases the "argument never happens" risk. And this is exactly what we want at this point in time. (As long as you don't do negative actions like traffic obstruction protests...
I can attest that for me talking about AI dangers in an ashamed way has rarely if ever prompted a positive response. I've noticed and been told that it gives 'intellectual smartass' vibes rather than 'concerned person' vibes.
It seems like I see this sort of thing (people being evasive or euphemistic when discussing AI risk) a LOT. Even discussions by the AI2027 authors, who specifically describe a blow by blow extinction scenario that ends with AI killing 99% of humans with a bioweapon and then cleaning up the survivors with drones, frequently refer to it with sanitized language like "it could move against humans" [1] or "end up taking over" [2]. Guys you literally wrote a month by month extinction scenario with receipts! No need to protect our feelings here!
I haven’t read the book (though pre ordered it!) but I don’t think the statement in its title is true. I agree however with this post that people should be honest about their beliefs.
A plea for having the courage to morally stigmatize the people working in the AGI industry:
I agree with Nate Soares that we need to show much more courage in publicly sharing our technical judgments about AI risks -- based on our understanding of AI, the difficulties of AI alignment, the nature of corporate & geopolitical arms races, the challenges of new technology regulation & treaties, etc.
But we also need to show much more courage in publicly sharing our social and moral judgments about the evils of the real-life, flesh-and-blood people who are driving these AI risks -- specifically, the people leading the AI industry, working in it, funding it, lobbying for it, and defending it on social media.
Sharing our technical concerns about these abstract risks isn't enough. We also have to morally stigmatize the specific groups of people imposing these risks on all of us.
We need the moral courage to label other people evil when they're doing evil things.
If we don't do this, we look like hypocrites who don't really believe that AGI/ASI would be dangerous.
Moral psychology teaches us that moral judgments are typically attached not just to specific actions, or to emergen...
Sharing our technical concerns about these abstract risks isn't enough. We also have to morally stigmatize
I'm with you up until here; this isn't just a technical debate, it's a moral and social and political conflict with high stakes, and good and bad actions.
the specific groups of people imposing these risks on all of us.
To be really nitpicky, I technically agree with this as stated: we should stigmatize groups as such, e.g. "the AGI capabilities research community" is evil.
We need the moral courage to label other people evil when they're doing evil things.
Oops, this is partially but importantly WRONG. From Braχot 10a:
...With regard to the statement of Rabbi Yehuda, son of Rabbi Shimon ben Pazi, that David did not say Halleluya until he saw the downfall of the wicked, the Gemara relates: There were these hooligans in Rabbi Meir’s neighborhood who caused him a great deal of anguish. Rabbi Meir prayed for God to have mercy on them, that they should die. Rabbi Meir’s wife, Berurya, said to him: What is your thinking? On what basis do you pray for the death of these hooligans? Do you base yourself on the verse, as it is written: “Let sins cease from the land” (Psalms 104:35)
(This rhetoric is not quite my rhetoric, but I want to affirm that I do believe that ~most people working at big AI companies are contributing to the worst atrocity in human history, are doing things that are deontologically prohibited, and are morally responsible for that.)
For one, I think I'm a bit scared of regretting my choices. Like, calling someone evil and then being wrong about it isn't something where you just get to say "oops, I made a mistake" afterwards, you did meaningfully move to socially ostracize someone, mark them as deeply untrustworthy, and say that good people should remove their power, and you kind of owe them something significant if you get that wrong.
For two, a person who has done evil, versus a person who is evil, are quite different things. I think that it's sadly not always the case that a person's character is aligned with a particular behavior of theirs. I think it's not accurate to think of all the people building the doomsday machines as generically evil and someone who will do awful things in lots of different contexts, I think there's a lot of variation in the people and their psychologies and predispositions, and some are screwing up here (almost unforgivably, to be clear) in ways they wouldn't screw up in different situations.
For two, a person who has done evil, versus a person who is evil, are quite different things. I think that it's sadly not always the case that a person's character is aligned with a particular behavior of theirs.
I do think many of the historical people most widely considered to be evil now were similarly not awful in full generality, or even across most contexts. For example, Eichmann, the ops lead for the Holocaust, was apparently a good husband and father, and generally took care not to violate local norms in his life or work. Yet personally I feel quite comfortable describing him as evil, despite "evil" being a fuzzy folk term of the sort which tends to imperfectly/lossily describe any given referent.
I'm not quite sure what I make of this, I'll take this opportunity to think aloud about it.
I often take a perspective where most people are born a kludgey mess, and then if they work hard they can become something principled and consistent and well-defined. But without that, they don't have much in the way of persistent beliefs or morals such that they can be called 'good' or 'evil'.
I think of an evil person as someone more like Voldemort in HPMOR, who has reflected on his principles and will be persistently a murdering sociopath, than someone who ended up making horrendous decisions but wouldn't in a different time and place. I think if you put me under a lot of unexpected political forces and forced me to make high-stakes decisions, I could make bad decisions, but not because I'm a fundamentally bad person.
I do think it makes sense to write people off as bad people, in our civilization. There are people who have poor impulse control, who have poor empathy, who are pathological liars, and who aren't save-able by any of our current means, and will always end up in jail or hurting people around them. I rarely interact with such people so it's hard for me to keep this in ...
I've often appreciated your contributions here, but given the stakes of existential risk, I do think that if my beliefs about risk from AI are even remotely correct, then it's hard to escape the conclusion that the people presently working at labs are committing the greatest atrocity that anyone in human history has or will ever commit.
The logic of this does not seem that complicated, and while I disagree with Geoffrey Miller on how he goes about doing things, I have even less sympathy for someone reacting to a bunch of people really thinking extremely seriously and carefully about whether what that person is doing might be extremely bad with "if people making such comparisons decide to ostracize me then I consider it a nice bonus". You don't have to agree, but man, I feel like you clearly have the logical pieces to understand why one could believe you are causing extremely great harm, without that implying the insanity of the person believing that.
I respect at least some of the people working at capability labs. One thing that unites all of the ones I do respect is that they treat their role at those labs with the understanding that they are in a position of momentous responsibility, and that them making mistakes could indeed cause historically unprecedented levels of harm. I wish you did the same here.
I edited the original post to make the same point with less sarcasm.
I take risk from AI very seriously which is precisely why I am working in alignment at OpenAI. I am also open to talking with people having different opinions, which is why I try to follow this forum (and also preordered the book). But I do draw the line at people making Nazi comparisons.
FWIW I think radicals often hurt the causes they espouse, whether it is animal rights, climate change, or Palestine. Even if after decades the radicals are perceived to have been on “the right side of history”, their impact was often negative and it caused that to have taken longer: David Shor was famously cancelled for making this point in the context of the civil rights movement.
The comparisons invite themselves, frankly. “Careerism without moral evaluation of the consequences of one’s work” is a perfect encapsulation of the attitudes of many of the people who work in frontier AI labs, and I decline to pretend otherwise.
(And I must also say that I find the “Jewish people must not be compared to Nazis” stance to be rather absurd, especially in this sort of case. I’m Jewish myself, and I think that refusing to learn, from that particular historical example, any lessons whatsoever that could possibly ever apply to our own behavior, is morally irresponsible in the extreme.)
EDIT: Although the primary motivation of my comment about Eichmann was indeed to correct the perception of the historians’ consensus, so if you prefer, I can remove the comparison to a separate comment; the rest of the comment stands without that part.
(From a moderation perspective:
The LW mods told me they're considering implementing a tool to move discussions to the open thread (so that they may continue without derailing the topical discussions). FYI @habryka: if it existed, I might use it on the tangents, idk. I encourage people to pump against the controversy attractor.)
I agree with you on the categorization of 1 and 2. I think there is a reason why Godwin’s law was created once thread follow the controversy attractor to this direction they tend to be unproductive.
The apparent aim of OpenAI (making AGI, even though we don't know how to do so without killing everyone) is evil.
You mis-read me on the first point; I said that (something kind of like) 'lower-class violent criminals' are sometimes dysfunctional and bad people, but I was distinguishing that from someone more hyper competent and self-aware like SBF or Voldemort; I said that only the latter are evil. (For instance, they've hurt orders of magnitude more people.)
(I'm genuinely not sure what research you're referring to – I am expect you are 100x as familiar with the literature as I am, and FWIW I'd be happy to get a pointer or two of things to read.[1])
The standard EA point is to use moral stigmatization? Even if that's accurate, I'm afraid I no longer have any trust in EAs to do ethics well. As an example that you will be sympathetic to, lots of them have endorsed working at AI companies over the past decade (but many many other examples have persuaded me of this point).
To be clear, I am supportive of moral stigma being associated with working at AI companies. I've shown up to multiple protests outside the companies (and I brought my mum!). If you have any particular actions in mind to encourage me to do (I'm probably not doing as much as I could) I'm interested to hear them. Perhaps you could w...
To be clear, I think it would probably be reasonable for some external body like the UN to attempt to prosecute & imprison ~everyone working at big AI companies for their role in racing to build doomsday machines. (Most people in prison are not evil.) I'm a bit unsure if it makes sense to do things like this retroactively rather than to just outlaw it going forward, but I think it sometime makes sense to prosecute atrocities after the fact even if there wasn't a law against it at the time. For instance my understanding is that the Nuremberg trials set precedents for prosecuting people for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace, even though legally they weren't crimes at the time that they happened.
I just have genuine uncertainty about the character of many of the people in the big AI companies and I don't believe they're all fundamentally rotten people! And I think language is something that can easily get bent out of shape when the stakes are high, and I don't want to lose my ability to speak and be understood. Consequently I find I care about not falsely calling people's character/nature evil when what I think is happening is that they are committing an atrocity, which is similar but distinct.
My answer to this is "because framing things in terms of evil turns the situation more mindkilly, not really the right gears, and I think this domain needs clarity-of-thought more than it needs a social-conflict orientation"
(I'm not that confident about that, and don't super object to other people calling them evil. But I think "they are most likely committing a great atrocity" is pretty non-euphemistic and more true)
Yeah that makes sense.
As an aside, I notice that I currently feel much more reticent to name individuals who there is not some sort of legal/civilizational consensus about their character. I think I am a bit worried about contributing to the dehumanization of people who are active players, and a drop in basic standards of decency toward them, even if I were to believe they were evil.
I'm personally against this as matter of principle, and I also don't think it'll work.
Hi Knight, thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I'm curious whether you read the longer piece about moral stigmatization that I linked to at EA Forum? It's here, and it addresses several of your points.
I have a much more positive view about the effectiveness of moral stigmatization, which I think has been at the heart of almost every successful moral progress movement in history. The anti-slavery movement stigmatized slavery. The anti-vivisection movement stigmatized torturing animals for 'experiments'. The women's rights movement stigmatized misogyny. The gay rights movement stigmatized homophobia.
After the world wars, biological and chemical weapons were not just regulated, but morally stigmatized. The anti-landmine campaign stigmatized landmines.
Even in the case of nuclear weapons, the anti-nukes peace movement stigmatized the use and spread of nukes, and was important in nuclear non-proliferation, and IMHO played a role in the heroic individual decisions by Arkhipov and others not to use nukes when they could have.
Regulation and treaties aimed to reduce the development, spread, and use of Bad Thing X, without moral stigmatization of Bad Thing X, doesn't usually work very...
We have to denounce them as the Bad Guys. As traitors to our species. And then, later, once they've experienced the most intense moral shame they've ever felt, [etc. contd. p.94]
This is self-indulgent, impotent fantasy. Everyone agrees that people hurting children is bad. People are split on whether AGI/ASI is an existential threat.[1] There is no "we" beyond "people who agree with you". "They" are not going to have anything like the reaction you're imagining. Your strategy of screaming and screaming and screaming and screaming and screaming and screaming and screaming and screaming is not an effective way of changing anyone's mind.
Anyone responding "but it IS an existential threat!!" is missing the point. ↩︎
I think this is a pretty unhelpful frame. Most people working at an AI lab are somewhere between "person of unremarkable moral character who tells themselves a vague story about how they're doing good things" and "deeply principled person trying their best to improve the world as best they can". I think working at an AI lab requires less failure of moral character than, say, working at a tobacco company, for all that the former can have much worse effects on the world.
There are a few people I think it is fair to describe as actively morally bad, and willfully violating deontology - it seems likely to me that this is true of Sam Altman, for instance - but I think "evil" is just not a very helpful word here, will not usefully model the actions of AI lab employees, and will come across as obviously disingenuous to anyone who hears such rhetoric if they actually interact with any of the people you're denigrating. If you had to be evil to end the world, the world would be a lot safer!
I think it's fine and good to concentrate moral opprobrium at specific actions people take that are unprincipled or clear violations of deontology - companies going back on commitments, people taking on rol...
But the mere choice of job title is usually not a deontology violation for these people, because they don't think it has the harms to the world you think it does!
I don't think this step is locally valid? Or at least, in many situations, I don't think ignorance of the consequences if your actions absolves you of responsibility for them.
As an example, if you work hard to help elect a politician who you believe was principled and good, and then when they get into office they're a craven sellout who causes thousands of people to die, you bear some responsibility for it and for cleaning up your mess. As another example, if you work hard at a company and then it turns out the company is a scam and you've stolen money from all your customers, you bear some responsibility to clean up the mess and help the people whose lives your work ruined.
Relatedly, it is often the case that the right point to apply liability is when someone takes an action with a lot of downside, regardless of intent. Here are some legal examples a shoggoth gave me of holding people accountable even if they didn't know the harm they were causing.
Drake -- this seems like special pleading from an AI industry insider.
You wrote 'I think working at an AI lab requires less failure of moral character than, say, working at a tobacco company, for all that the former can have much worse effects on the world.'
That doesn't make sense to me. Tobacco kills about 8 million people a year globally. ASI could kill about 8 billion. The main reason that AI lab workers think that their moral character is better than that of tobacco industry workers is that the tobacco industry has already been morally stigmatized over the last several decades -- whereas the AI industry has not yet been morally stigmatized in proportion to its likely harms.
Of course, ordinary workers in any harm-imposing industry can always make the argument that they're good (or at least ethically mediocre) people, that they're just following orders, trying to feed their families, weren't aware of the harms, etc.
But that argument does not apply to smart people working in the AI industry -- who have mostly already been exposed to the many arguments that AGI/ASI is a uniquely dangerous technology. And their own CEOs have already acknowledged these risks. And yet people continue to work in this industry.
Maybe a few workers at a few AI companies might be having a net positive impact in reducing AI X-risk. Maybe you're one of the lucky few. Maybe.
ASI could kill about 8 billion.
The future is much much bigger than 8 billion people. Causing the extinction of humanity is much worse than killing 8 billion people. This really matters a lot for arriving at the right moral conclusions here.
Curated. I have been at times more cautious in communicating my object level views than I now wish I had been. I appreciate this post as a flag for courage: something others might see, and which might counter some of the (according to me) prevailing messages of caution. Those messages, at least in my case, significantly contributed to my caution, and I wish there had been something like this post around for me to read before I had to decide how cautious to be.
The argument this post presents for the conclusion that many people should be braver in communicat...
Correct & timely. There do exist margins where honesty and effectiveness trade off against each other, but today - in 2025, that is - this is no longer one of them. Your SB 1047 friend is quite right to suggest that things were different in 2023, though. The amount of resistance we got behind the scenes in trying to get words like "extinction" and even "AGI" (!!) published in our report (which was mostly written in 2023) was something to behold: back then you could only push the envelope so far before it became counterproductive. No longer. The best me...
Nobel laureates and lab heads and the most cited researchers in the field are saying there’s a real issue here
Some do, others dont. A lot of people are smart enough to spot cherry picking.
I think the very fact that some do is already evidence that this is not a completely unfounded concern, which is what this is driving at.
The amount of respected professional doctors who worry about the impact of witches casting curses on public health is approximately zero. The amount of climate scientists who worry about the impact of CO2 emissions on the future of life and civilization on Earth is approximately 100%. The amount of world class AI-related scientists and researchers who worry about AI apocalypse is not as much but it's also far from negligible. If there's a mistake in their thinking, it's the kind of mistake that even a high level expert can make, and it's not particularly more likely than the other side being the one who makes a mistake.
Yes---but when some people say "I think there is danger here" and others say "I think there is no danger here," most people (reasonably!) resolve that to "huh, there could be some danger here"... and the possibility of danger is a danger.
"We cold-emailed a bunch of famous people..."
"Matt Stone", co-creator of South Park? Have you tried him?
He's demonstrated interest in AI and software. He's brought up the topic in the show.
South Park has a large reach. And the creators have demonstrated a willingness to change their views as they acquire new information. (long ago, South Park satirized Climate Change and Al Gore... but then years later they made a whole "apology episode" that presented Climate Change very seriously... and also apologized to Al Gore)
Seriously, give him a try!
Thank you for writing this statement on communication strategy and also for writing this book. Even without knowing the specific content in detail, I consider such a book to be very important.
Some time ago, it seemed to me that relevant parts of the AI risk community were ignoring the need for many other people to understand their concerns, instead thinking they could "simply" create a superintelligent and quasi-omnipotent AI that would then save the world before someone else invents paperclip maximizers. This seemed to presuppose a specific worldview th...
I don't think people in general react well to societal existential risks, regardless how well or courageous the message is framed. These are abstract concerns. The fact that we are talking about AI (an abstract thing in itself) makes it even worse.
I'm also a very big opponent of arguing by authority (I really don't care how many nobel laureates are of the opinion of something, it is the content of their argument I care about, now how many authorities are saying it). That is simply that I cannot determine the motives of these authorities and hence their opi...
Your take is consistent with political messaging advice that people like water and they like drinks but they don't like watered down drinks. Swing voters react to what's said most often, not to the average of things that get said around them.
I think more people should say what they actually believe about AI dangers, loudly and often. Even (and perhaps especially) if you work in AI policy.
I’ve been beating this drum for a few years now. I have a whole spiel about how your conversation-partner will react very differently if you share your concerns while feeling ashamed about them versus if you share your concerns while remembering how straightforward and sensible and widely supported the key elements are, because humans are very good at picking up on your social cues. If you act as if it’s shameful to believe AI will kill us all, people are more prone to treat you that way. If you act as if it’s an obvious serious threat, they’re more likely to take it seriously too.
I have another whole spiel about how it’s possible to speak on these issues with a voice of authority. Nobel laureates and lab heads and the most cited researchers in the field are saying there’s a real issue here. If someone is dismissive, you can be like “What do you think you know that the Nobel laureates and the lab heads and the most cited researchers don’t? Where do you get your confidence?” You don’t need to talk like it’s a fringe concern, because it isn’t.
And in the last year or so I’ve started collecting anecdotes such as the time I had dinner with an elected official, and I encouraged other people at the dinner to really speak their minds, and the most courage they could muster was statements like, “Well, perhaps future AIs could help Iranians figure out how to build nuclear material.” To which the elected official replied, “My worries are much bigger than that; I worry about recursive self-improvement and superintelligence wiping us completely off the map, and I think it could start in as little as three years.”
These spiels haven’t always moved people. I’m regularly told that I’m just an idealistic rationalist who’s enamored by the virtue of truth, and who’s trying to worm out of a taboo tradeoff between honesty and effectiveness. I’m sometimes told that the elected officials are probably just trying to say what they know their supporters want to hear. And I am not at liberty to share all the details from those sorts of dinners, which makes it a little harder to share my evidence.
But I am at liberty to share the praise we've received for my forthcoming book. Eliezer and I do not mince words in the book, and the responses we got from readers were much more positive than I was expecting, even given all my spiels.
You might wonder how filtered this evidence is. It’s filtered in some ways and not in others.
We cold-emailed a bunch of famous people (like Obama and Oprah), and got a low response rate. Separately, there’s a whole tier of media personalities that said they don’t really do book endorsements; many of those instead invited us on their shows sometime around book launch. Most people who work in AI declined to comment. Most elected officials declined to comment (even while some gave private praise, for whatever that’s worth).
But among national security professionals, I think we only approached seven of them. Five of them gave strong praise, one of them (Shanahan) gave a qualified statement, and the seventh said they didn’t have time (which might have been a polite expression of disinterest). Which is a much stronger showing than I was expecting, from the national security community.
We also had a high response rate among people like Ben Bernanke and George Church and Stephen Fry. These are people that we had some very tangential connection to — like “one of my friends is childhood friends with the son of a well-connected economist.” Among those sorts of connections, almost everyone had a reaction somewhere between “yep, this sure is an important issue that people should be discussing” and “holy shit”, and most offered us a solid endorsement. (In fact, I don’t recall any such wacky plans that didn’t pan out, but there were probably a few I’m just not thinking of. We tried to keep a table of all our attempts but it quickly devolved into chaos.)
I think this is pretty solid evidence for “people are ready to hear about AI danger, if you speak bluntly and with courage.”[1] Indeed, I’ve been surprised and heartened by the response to the book.
I think loads of people in this community are being far too cowardly in their communication, especially in the policy world.
I’m friends with some of the folk who helped draft SB 1047, so I’ll pick on them a bit.
SB 1047 was an ill-fated California AI bill that more-or-less required AI companies to file annual safety reports. When it was being drafted, I advised that it should be much more explicit about how AI poses an extinction threat, and about the need for regulations with teeth to avert that danger. The very first drafts of SB 1047 had the faintest of teeth, and then it was quickly defanged (by the legislature) before being passed and ultimately vetoed.
One of my friends who helped author the bill took this sequence of events as evidence that my advice was dead wrong. According to them, the bill was just slightly too controversial. Perhaps if it had been just a little more watered down then maybe it would have passed.
I took the evidence differently.
I noted statements like Senator Ted Cruz saying that regulations would “set the U.S. behind China in the race to lead AI innovation. [...] We should be doing everything possible to unleash competition with China, not putting up artificial roadblocks.” I noted J.D. Vance saying that regulations would “entrench the tech incumbents that we actually have, and make it actually harder for new entrants to create the innovation that’s going to power the next generation of American growth.”
On my view, these were evidence that the message wasn’t working. Politicians were not understanding the bill as being about extinction threats; they were understanding the bill as being about regulatory capture of a normal budding technology industry.
...Which makes sense. If people really believed that everyone was gonna die from this stuff, why would they be putting forth a bill that asks for annual reporting requirements? Why, that’d practically be fishy. People can often tell when you’re being fishy.
It’s been a tricky disagreement to resolve. My friend and I each saw a way that the evidenced supported our existing position, which means it didn't actually discriminate between our views.[2]
But, this friend who helped draft SB 1047? I’ve been soliciting their advice about which of the book endorsements would be more or less impressive to folks in D.C. And as they’ve seen the endorsements coming in, they said that all these endorsements were “slightly breaking [their] model of where things are in the overton window.” So perhaps we’re finally starting to see some clearer evidence that the courageous strategy actually works, in real life.[3]
I think many people who understand the dangers of AI are being too cowardly in their communications.[4] Especially among people in D.C. I think that such communication is useless at best (because it doesn’t focus attention on the real problems) and harmful at worst (because it smells fishy). And I think it’s probably been harmful to date.
If you need a dose of courage, maybe go back and look at the advance praise for If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies again. Recall that the praise came from many people we had no prior relationship with, including some people who were initially quite skeptical. Those blurbs don’t feel to me like they’re typical, run-of-the-mill book endorsements. Those blurbs feel to me like unusual evidence that the world is ready to talk about this problem openly.
Those blurbs feel to me like early signs that people with a wide variety of backgrounds and world-views are pretty likely to adopt a sensible viewpoint upon hearing real arguments made with conviction.
The job isn’t done yet. Society being ready to have the conversation doesn’t mean that society is having the conversation. We’re still somehow in a world where I occasionally have dinner with elected officials who worry about recursive self-improvement leading to superintelligence inside of three years — and yet none of the congress members who privately praise our book are willing to endorse it publicly yet.
There’s work to be done. And now is perhaps the right time to do it.
This possible window of opportunity is why Eliezer and I wrote the book in the first place. Once I started noticing that the message was really working, e.g. in private meetings with elected officials in D.C., I came back and told Eliezer that I thought the time was ripe. Perhaps a clear, convincing, and successful book (with an associated media tour) will do a lot to thrust this conversation into the mainstream. And then maybe humanity will decide to do something else, and maybe we won't all die.
So, at the risk of pandering: If you see any of the hope here that I see, consider helping us make this book cause a big splash.
The time is ripe. Pre-orders can help our book debut on the best-seller lists, and being on the best-seller list will influence whether our book, and this conversation, catches national attention.
Last month we were hitting Amazon best-seller lists in our categories despite still being in pre-order mode (which I’m told is rare). I’m heartened by this support. If we can keep up the pace of the last month for the next two and a half months, we’ll be in good shape. If we can keep up the pace and then get an extra burst of support right as the book launches, we’ll be in great shape. I think that’s a possibility, with support from this community.
We’re doing everything we can on our end, and it’s going well. If you want to coordinate about breaking open the Overton window, now is quite plausibly the best time for it.
If we do our job well here, there’s a real chance that politicians and journalists and your neighbor are taking extinction-level dangers from AI seriously by the end of the year.
And regardless of whether you think our book is worth throwing your weight behind, I hope you consider that you don’t need to hide your beliefs about AI danger, nor be ashamed of them. People respond well when you speak to them with courage.
The "courage" property I'm talking advocating here is about naming what you think is the real problem plainly, not about being impolite. This notion of courage is completely compatible with saying "you don't have to agree with me, Mr. Senator, but my best understanding of the evidence is [belief]. If ever you're interested in discussing the reasons in detail, I'd be happy to. And until then, we can work together in areas where our interests overlap." The concept is about naming what you think are the key issues, straightforwardly, in plain language. There are loads of ways to do so politely. See also this comment.
That wasn't the only case where the evidence was tricky to read. In January, Senator Cruz had Elon Musk on his podcast and asked “How real is the prospect of killer robots annihilating humanity?” in a context where the senator was overall a bit dismissive. Some of my friends read this as a bad sign, on account of the dismissiveness. I read it it as a good sign, because he was at least starting to think about the key dangers.
And shortly after J.D. Vance read AI 2027, he was asked “Do you think that the U.S. government is capable in a scenario — not like the ultimate Skynet scenario — but just a scenario where A.I. seems to be getting out of control in some way, of taking a pause?” and he answered:
I don’t know. That’s a good question.
The honest answer to that is that I don’t know, because part of this arms race component is if we take a pause, does the People’s Republic of China not take a pause? And then we find ourselves all enslaved to P.R.C.-mediated A.I.?
Some of my friends read this as a bad sign, because he seemed intent on a suicide race. I read it as a good sign, because — again — he was engaging with the real issues at hand, and he wasn't treating AI as just another industry at the mercy of over-eager regulators.
My friend caveats that they're still not sure SB 1047 should have been more courageous. All we have actually observed is courage working in 2025, which does not necessarily imply it would have worked in 2023.
By "cowardice" here I mean the content, not the tone or demeanor. I acknowledge that perceived arrogance and overconfidence can annoy people in communication, and can cause backlash. For more on what I mean by courageous vs cowardly content, see this comment. I also spell out the argument more explicitly in this thread.