This, and your links to Lob's theory, is one of the most fear inducing piece of writing that I have ever read. Now I want to know if I have understand this properly. I found that the best way to do it is to first explain what I understand to myself, and then to other people. My explanation is below:

I suppose that rationalist would have some simple, intuitive and obvious presumptions a foundation (e.g. most of the time, my sensory organs reflect the world accurately). But apparently, it put its foundation on a very specific set of statement, the most power... (read more)

Now I am not making any statement about rationality or presuppositionalism, but it seems to me that there is a logical veil that we cannot get to the bottom of and it is called self-reference.

That assumes that a rational person is one who holds beliefs because of a chain of logic. Empricially Superforcasters don't simply try to follow a chain of logic to get their beliefs. A rational person in the LW sense thus is not one that holds beliefs because of a chain of logic.

Tedlock gives in his book a good outlook about how to form beliefs about the likelihood that beliefs are true.

3WhySpace_duplicate0.92616921290755274yVery close, but not quite. (Or, at least not quite my understanding. I haven’t dug too deep.) A reply to Presuppositionalism I wouldn’t say that we should presume anything because it proves itself. Emotionally, we may have a general impulse to accept things because of evidence, and so it is natural to accept induction using inductive reasoning. So, that’s likely why the vast majority of people actually accept some form of induction. However, this is not self-consistent, according to Lob’s theorem. We must either accept induction without being able to make a principled argument for doing so, or we must reject it, also without a principled reason. So, Presuppositionalism appears to be logically false, according to Lob’s theorem. I could leave it at that, but it’s bad form to fight a straw man, and not the strongest possible form of an argument. The steel man [https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man] of Presuppositionalism might instead take certain propositions as a matter of faith, and make no attempt to prove them. One might then build much more complex philosophies on top of those assumptions. Brief detour Before I reply to that, let me back up for a moment. I Agree Denotationally But Object Connotationally [http://lesswrong.com/lw/4h/when_truth_isnt_enough/] with most of the rest of what you said above. (It seems to me to be technically true, but phrased in such a way that it would be natural to draw false inferences from it.) If I had merely posited that induction was valid, I suspect it wouldn’t have been disconcerting, even if I didn’t offer any explanation as to why we should start there and not at “I am not dreaming” or any of the examples you listed. You were happy to accept some starting place, so long as it felt reasonable. All I did was add a little rigor to the concept of a starting point. However, by additionally pointing out the problems with asserting anything from scratch, I’ve weakened my own case, albeit for the larger goal of epistemic r
1stoat4yEliezer ruminates on foundations and wrestles with the difficulties quite a bit in the Metaethics sequence, for example: * Where Recursive Justification Hits Bottom [http://lesswrong.com/lw/s0/where_recursive_justification_hits_bottom/] * Fundamental Doubts [http://lesswrong.com/lw/s4/fundamental_doubts/]

Open thread, Jul. 25 - Jul. 31, 2016

by MrMind 1 min read25th Jul 2016133 comments

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