Much of the time, the forum feels too much like a battle arena and too little like a community. In particular, I felt great disillusionment with LessWrong after my proposal to restrict downvotes to traditional use-cases of moderation received vehement opposition.

I believe that friendly behavior and not downvoting are two different things, but these ideas seem mixed together in some proposals.

I would prefer if LW became more friendly, and less like a "battle arena". I mean, when I meet with rationalists at meetups, I am so happy, and I love them all... so why don't my words here reflect it? This is a thing that needs to be fixed, and that I need to be reminded of more often.

But upvoting and downvoting is different from that. Votes != words. Clicking upvote a dozen times is not an equivalent of saying "I love you". We need more warm speech, not indiscriminate upvoting. At least this is how I feel about it. My idea of a better LW is a place with warmer discussion, not a place where hyperlinks without a summary get upvoted. That would be solving a wrong problem.

you can't downvote a comment, you can only "flag as inappropriate"

Wouldn't that be like comments on Facebook? I am afraid it would incentivize people to post controversial comments. These days a comment with 3 upvotes and 0 downvotes has a higher score than a comment with 7 upvotes and 10 downvotes; without downvoting it would be the other way round.

Publish much more of the stuff going on in meetups to the site.

Yes. And even more generally -- if your (rationality-related, but not necessarily) activities are in the real world, then write about them here. Tell us what happened at your meetup. Tell us about things you debated in your google group. Etc.

Maybe we also can allow people to participate in meetups remotely through e.g. Google hangout.

Some people tried that, the problem is you can't have more than cca 10 people in a hangout, and even then it goes very slowly. :(

I am afraid it would incentivize people to post controversial comments.

I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. It certainly would help avoid groupthink or forced conformity. And if someone gets upvoted for posting controversial argument A, then someone can respond and get even more votes for explaining the logic behind not-A.

[Meta] The Decline of Discussion: Now With Charts!

by Gavin 2 min read4th Jun 2014105 comments


[Based on Alexandros's excellent dataset.]

I haven't done any statistical analysis, but looking at the charts I'm not sure it's necessary. The discussion section of LessWrong has been steadily declining in participation. My fairly messy spreadsheet is available if you want to check the data or do additional analysis.

Enough talk, you're here for the pretty pictures.

The number of posts has been steadily declining since 2011, though the trend over the last year is less clear. Note that I have excluded all posts with 0 or negative Karma from the dataset.


The total Karma given out each month has similarly been in decline.

Is it possible that there have been fewer posts, but of a higher quality?

No, at least under initial analysis the average Karma seems fairly steady. My prior here is that we're just seeing less visitors overall, which leads to fewer votes being distributed among fewer posts for the same average value. I would have expected the average karma to drop more than it did--to me that means that participation has dropped more steeply than mere visitation. Looking at the point values of the top posts would be helpful here, but I haven't done that analysis yet.

These are very disturbing to me, as someone who has found LessWrong both useful and enjoyable over the past few years. It raises several questions:


  1. What should the purpose of this site be? Is it supposed to be building a movement or filtering down the best knowledge?
  2. How can we encourage more participation?
  3. What are the costs of various means of encouraging participation--more arguing, more mindkilling, more repetition, more off-topic threads, etc?


Here are a few strategies that come to mind:

Idea A: Accept that LessWrong has fulfilled its purpose and should be left to fade away, or allowed to serve as a meetup coordinator and repository of the highest quality articles. My suspicion is that without strong new content and an online community, the strength of the individual meetup communities may wane as fewer new people join them. This is less of an issue for established communities like Berkeley and New York, but more marginal ones may disappear.

Idea B: Allow and encourage submission of rationalism, artificial intelligence, transhumanism etc related articles from elsewhere, possibly as a separate category. This is how a site like Hacker News stays high engagement, even though many of the discussions are endless loops of the same discussion. It can be annoying for the old-timers, but new generations may need to discover things for themselves. Sometimes "put it all in one big FAQ" isn't the most efficient method of teaching.

Idea C: Allow and encourage posts on "political" topics in Discussion (but probably NOT Main). The dangers here might be mitigated by a ban on discussion of current politicians, governments, and issues. "Historians need to have had a decade to mull it over before you're allowed to introduce it as evidence" could be a good heuristic. Another option would be a ban on specific topics that cause the worst mindkilling. Obviously this is overall a dangerous road.

Idea D: Get rid of Open Threads and create a new norm that a discussion post as short as a couple sentences is acceptable. Open threads get stagnant within a day or two, and are harder to navigate than the discussion page. Moving discussion from the Open Threads to the Discussion section would increase participation if users could be convinced thatit was okay to post questions and partly-formed ideas there.

The challenge with any of these ideas is that they will require strong moderation. 

At any rate, this data is enough to convince me that some sort of change is going to be needed in order to put the community on a growth trajectory. That is not necessarily the goal, but at its core LessWrong seems like it has the potential to be a powerful tool for the spreading of rational thought. We just need to figure out how to get it started into its next evolution.