All of Chad2's Comments + Replies

Catperson: I agree with your reading.

Additionally, it seems Akon is unaware of the historic asymmetry of gender roles in non-consensual sex.

Either that, or in this impossible possible world there was a reversal from our present gender dynamics at some point in the past.

This is incidental to the topic, but what do you mean by “controlled shutdown”, as distinct from “shutdown”?

My guess: the now-malfunctioning AGI is in charge of critical infrastructure upon which the lives of O(3^^^3) humans depend at the time it detects that it is about to self-deceive. Presumably a "controlled shutdown" would be some kind of orderly relinquishing of its responsibilities so that as few of those 0(3^^^3) humans are harmed in the process.

Of course, that assumes that such a shutdown is actually possible at that time. What guarantees could be provided to ensure that a non-future-destroying controlled shutdown of an AGI would be feasible at any point in time?

>How exactly can you construct a disproof of X without using
>premises that rule out X? That's what disproving is.

Sure, a mathematical proof proceeds from its premises and therefore any results achieved are entailed in those premises. I am not sure we are really in the real of pure mathematics here but I probably should have been more precise in my statement. In a non-mathematical discussion, a slightly longer chain of reasoning is generally preferred -- starting with the premise that dualism is false is a little uncomfortably close to starting with ... (read more)


In an argument that is basically attempting to disprove the existence of God, it seems a little disingenuous to me to include premises that effectively rule out God's existence. If you aren't willing to at least allow the possibility of dualism for the sake of argument, then why bother talking about God at all?

Also, I am not sure what your notion of "infinite" mathematics is about. Can you elaborate or point me to some relevant resources?

"Chad: if you seriously think that Turing-completeness does not imply the possibility of sentience, then you're definitely in the wrong place indeed."

gwern: The implication is certainly there and it's one I am sympathetic with, but I'd say its far from proven. The leap in logic there is one that will keep the members of the choir nodding along but is not going to win over any converts. A weak argument is a weak argument, whether you agree with the conclusion reached by that argument -- it's better for the cause if the arguments are held to higher standards.

"Conway's Life has been proven Turing-complete, so it would be possible to build a sentient being in the Life universe"

Bit of a leap in logic here, no?

Seems to me your comment would have received more votes if you had amplified it a bit considering the majority viewpoint of readers attracted to this blog. What Eli's assumption depends upon: The biblical words are 'God created man in his own image', which hinges on assuming God created the universe. Now, if God can create us in his own image, why can't we create a sentient AI in Our own image? Did god pass on to us whatever "power" he used to endow us with sentience so that we are also empowered to pass on sentience? Can we arrive at a correct answer just be looking at the evidence? From the theistic approach we live in a universe .. one theory (Linde) is that we live in a multiverse with many local universes with their own laws of physics, perhaps they are turing-computable? There is controversy about whether the baby universe is shaped (inherits) laws from the parent universe or whether the physical laws of the baby universe evolve on their own, essentially random in relationship to the parent universe. It is known that experiment cannot provide an answer to which way this unfolds. Looking at the physical laws of this universe (observations) doesn't provide insight as to which, if any, inheritable traits are passed from parent to baby universe. In other words, even if the laws of this universe are turing-computable (Zuse, Fredkin/Wolfram, and Deutsch in an expanded CT Thesis sense) that doesn't provide the foundation for a firm conclusion, because not all possibilities are excluded with this amount of information. Computability is an algorithmic thus cause and effect structure. This doesn't answer the question of whether the origin of the universe is likewise computable. Most current theories introduce faster than light source moments and computability/law of cause and effect, have a speed of light limitation. A similar difficulty arises in the effort to reconcile Relativity and Quantum Theory->to make it universal, called the Problem of Gravity which is really

The leap is that the Church–Turing thesis applies to human (“sentient”) cognition. Many theists deny this.

Worst case, our laws of physics seem to be turing-computable.

Read Gödel, Escher, Bach. And google "Turing Machine".

Isn't there quite a bit of selection bias involved here? Perhaps some level of native intelligence is required to be in the elite (or strongly correlated to it at least) but don't you have to see how many equally intelligent people are toiling away outside the elite to determine if greater intelligence is sufficient? Wouldn't Bayes be a little disappointed with thispost? Also, you observe that people who are in the elite seem happier and more fulfilled than the average. That doesn't really seem that surprising to me -- after all they are already pretty far... (read more)