Popularization of modern culture happens everywhere, but there are more than enough people interested in history to preserve those traditions...
I'm thinking more about the loss of traditional wisdom and accurate history in favor of the adoption of modern sensibilities, modes of behavior, and societal priorities. Popularization of modern culture isn't the concern, integrity and maintenance of traditional culture and the underlying wisdom and benefits which allowed Chinese civilization to thrive and last for over 4,000 years is.
There might or might not be en... (read more)
KataGo was not trained on human games.
I'm not a programmer, but have been trying to fit learning more about AI into my day, sort of using Go bots as an entry point into beginning to understand how neural nets and algorithms work in a more concrete, less conceptual way. So then was KataGo simply playing itself in order to train?
I wonder whether we are interpreting "local patterns" in different ways.
I've spent 20 years or so playing casually on 19x19 boards mostly, and I think my concept of local play is less crude than the one your talking about. I tend to ... (read more)
In case it wasn't clear, that sentence beginning "Stronger players do better" was not purporting to describe all the things that make stronger go players stronger, but to describe specifically how I think they are stronger in joseki.
I didn't take it as if it was all they did.
(1) they have a better sense of the range of possible outcomes once those sequences of moves have been played out and (2) they have a better sense of how the state of the rest of the board affects the desirability of those various outcomes.
With (1) it seems like your descri... (read more)
What's up with the way the impulse in me oscilated between selfish rationalizations ("she might harm me") and morality-related rationalizations ("it's wrong to upset people")?
If 'falling through a glass floor' in this instance is the fear of being humiliated and/or laughed at, you're definitely not alone in this sentiment. This is probably one of the most common social fears, as it can potentially cause you to 'fall down' the scale of social hierarchy, right? Of course this whole Pandemic has turned everything on it's head, so social norms come under the l... (read more)
I have the same sense that strong go bots play more "globally" than strong humans.
Very much so. I have the same sense.
I think what's going on with different joseki choices between amateurs and very strong humans isn't exactly more patterns versus less patterns.
From my understanding, Professional players (and stronger amateurs) still rely heavily on Joseki, it's just that they Joseki become longer and more complicated. In a lot of ways, the stronger you get I think the more reliant you become on patterns you know have succeeded for you or others in th... (read more)
the fact that Alpha Go behaves like it does suggest that what's important for being able to play very strong isn't about local patterns.
AlphaGo was partly trained using human games as input, which I believe KataGo was as well.
But AlphaGoZero didn't use any human games as input, it basically 'taught itself' to play Go.
Seeing as how AlphaGo and KataGo used human games, which rely on integrating reasoning between local and global consideration, the development of the algorithms is different than that of AlphaGoZero.
Does AlphaGo r... (read more)
It may be easier to learn "this sort of shape is better than everyone thought" than "in this particular position
Thing is, the way you build shape in Go isn't a straightforward process; the 3 phases of a game, opening, middle game and end game usually involve different types of positional judgement, requiring different ratios of consideration between local position and global position.
Shape building occurs as game play progresses simply because of the aggregation of moves on the board over time, with the development of 'good shape' being desirable bec... (read more)
Not sure of the preferred method of making qualifications to previous posts, so I guess I'll just make another post.
After doing a little due diligence to the discussion by following up on Wikipedia, I think I understand better the points being made. I was unaware of the more modern developments of Contemporary Confucianism, and my comments relate only to what the Wikipedia entry refers to as Official Confucianism which ended in 1905.
Confucianism developed from what was later called the Hundred Schools of Thought from the teachings of the Chines
Hence, maybe it'd be more accurate to say neither that Confucianism is a religion, nor that Confucianism isn't a religion, but rather that Confucianism, Neoplatonism, Hinduism and others are all holistic paths (that they're "daos"), and that both Western religions and non-religions alike are, all of them, so many daos.
I agree and disagree. As it pertains to Confucianism, I agree it is more of a holistic concept than is acknowledged by a term like religion.
From the Blog you linked to:
So, the definition is telling us that doctrines, rituals, and moral
Alot going on here.
First, I believe I can appreciate the subtlety and nuance, as well as the sublimity of a concept like 'Tian' although I don't speak Chinese. I can also appreciate the difficulty of trying to describe a concept like that, and especially the difficulty of translating from an Eastern language into a Western language.
I'm trying to draw attention to the fact that 天 is an amoral material relationship.
I do think this is an especially important point as it relates to Confucianism. It's the amoral aspect of this philosophy/tradition/p... (read more)
It's been awhile since I've studied Chinese History, but I wouldn't say that Confucianism is a religion. It's much more a set of protocols and etiquette regarding the ways to be successful in an extremely complicated society. For sake of ease and without knowing the author being cited, I offer this (from Wikipedia's entry on Confucianism under the section relating to religion and the mention of the Chinese concept of Tian:)
The scholar Ronnie Littlejohn warns that Tian was not to be interpreted as personal God comparable to that of the Abrahamic faith
Yes to your first question. Yes to the second question, but with the caveat that Go playing AI are still useful for certain tasks in terms of helping develop a players game, but with limitations. Will a human player ever fully understand the game of Go period, much less the way an AI does? No I don't think so.
Or maybe it means we train the professional in the principles and heuristics that the bot knows.
Many Professional Go players are already using AI to help them study, including understanding the underlying technology and algorithms, with mixed results.
Humans have been playing Go for thousands of years and there is already a long and respected tradition and cannon of literature with commentaries and human reasoning to pull from. Most human players have used human created rituals to study with,and see studying AI as just one tool among many. Some don't ... (read more)
How comparable are Go bots to chess bots in this?
I don't believe they are that comparable. For starters, an average Chess game lasts somewhere around 20 moves, whereas an average Go game lasts closer to 200 - 300 moves. This is just one example of why a Go playing computer didn't reliably beat a professional Go player until 15 or so years after a chess playing computer beat a GM.
...but this is just another way of ... querying a part of the AI...
I've studied Go using AI and have heard others discuss the use of AI in studying Go. Even for professional Go players, the inability for the AI to explain why it gave a higher win rate to a particular move or sequence is a problem.
Even if you could program a tertiary AI which could query the Go playing AI, analyze the calculations the Go playing AI is using to make it's judgements, and then translate that into english (or another language) so that this tertiary AI could explain why th... (read more)
How can I reliably know that someone's reasoning is biased ?
Everyone is biased; I think it's sort of a law. Understanding what someones biases are is probably more productive when dealing with them, then trying to figure out if they are biased or not; 10 out of 10 times I'd go with a definite 'yes' they are biased. How biased and in what ways seem like good follow ups.
(I do think it is important to change the laptop buyer's mind, even though it's a different topic.)
If the real question is "How do you reason with an unreasonable person?", I'm not convinced contemporary society has a decent handle on this on.
I've seen arguments this is about probability of being caught determining people's behavior and that magnitude of the punishment (or expected value) is otherwise ignored.
Isn't this true of all laws, and social norms though? I think issues like Mass Incarceration are also about unequal application of the law across the entire population - "one law for me, another law for you" situations.
What it's using you for becomes the concern
Ah yes, using people, a sign of benevolence everywhere. /s
Sarcasm noted :).
The thing... (read more)
I am a fan of actual rehabilitation though, not of a punitive model for social influencing.
Paraphrasing:if you have bad intentions, [nothing will ameliorate the effect on] your personal development.
if you have bad intentions, [nothing will ameliorate the effect on] your personal development.
Good word btw, ameliorateI, but to be clear, I don't want to be fatalistic about this.
If "nothing" will ameliorate the development or maintenance of bad intention (just one aspect of personal development), it makes a case for increased use of the Death Penalty and "lock'em up and throw away the key" solutions on societies part which turn out to creat... (read more)
This doesn't necessarily follow. Security is asking 'how is this broken' and 'how can it be fixed'.
I agree in some instances. It sort of depends on how far removed securities intentions are though from what is 'good' : if 'ethical hacking' is used to secure a system used by both the private and public sectors, then gaining unauthorized access to others data or otherwise hacking the system to find vulnerabilities could be seen as good unless,
a) the system being ethically hacked and hardened is a system beingused to run 'criminal' enterprises, and secu... (read more)
One part of it is whether the assistant is able and willing to interact with me in a way that is compatible with how I want to grow as a person.
I think this argument unfortunately undercuts the entire concept of Rationality, and for this reason I think it is a good argument. Not because it undercuts Rationality, but because it points to what I think is the underlying concern of all humane cultural systems attempting to allow humans to progress, namely "what is good, what is bad/what is right/wrong, what is true/false." But I'm not convinced that all things... (read more)
What I am asking about is not 'how much' the AI would affect the user's personal development, but 'how' it would affect it. In a good or a bad way.
I am assuming you and your friends aren't trying to figure out how to rob a bank, or cheat on your taxes, or how to break the law and get away with it. The interactions you have with your friends help you develop your sense of 'what's fair' and at the same time, your friends get help developing their sense of 'what's fair', so you are all benefiting, and reinforcing for each other what you all think of 'as fair.... (read more)
I just downloaded the 2nd edition. Thank you for the suggestion.
Enjoyed the read, it's nice to see some sort of compromise between utopian and dystopian sci-fi (Meh-topian?)
It seems like the AI might be teaching/training the human user how to potentially break the law better, or possibly be more subversive in relationship to other non-AI mediated relationships though. Would people develop a more egalitarian thought process through engagement with AI assistants like this, being more likely to be egalitarian outside of AI- mediated relations? Or would they just use there conversations with these assistants to devel... (read more)
Cladistics is useful not only for biology but also for analyzing things like cultures.
Would love to see some examples if you have any to share.
Thanks for the suggestions, and now that I understand the idea that the probability values correspond to a binary interpretation of the events, it makes these areas easier to navigate for me in discussion.
In particular, truth of whether an outcome belongs to an event is not fuzzy, it either does or doesn't, as events are defined to be certain sets of outcomes.
This definitely stands as a hard to argue against idea, and it makes sense when seen from the viewpoint of rational humans interpreting data from systems based on binary calculations and logic.
D... (read more)
A really enjoyable and informative read. I noticed on your graphic that the starting point for the entire graphic is the very first land plant, and its a moss. The very first evolutionary step from that point has to do with vascularity. This makes me wonder what was before the first land plant? Some sort of water plant obviously but I'm curious what the major evolutionary step from the ocean to land was - what it means to be 'moss'.
My second question is more open ended I guess, but thinking about all the various strategies life on Earth has developed... (read more)
That clears up the issue for me. Thank you!
In Eliezer Yudkowsky's essay Burdensome Details, I get stuck by the first paragraph on the Conjunction Fallacy:
The conjunction fallacy is when humans assign a higher probability to a proposition of the form “A and B” than to one of the propositions “A” or “B” in isolation, even though it is a theorem that conjunctions are never likelier than their conjuncts.
According to Wikipedia's entry on Conjunction Fallacy:
"... the probability of two events occurring together (in "conjunction") is always less than or equal to the probability of either one occurring alo
BTW, sorry for the extraneous detail. Things have been stressful lately.
I mostly use my understanding of algorithms and data structures to organize my day-to-day tasks where possible
I'd be curious to hear about how you do this at some point. Much of my own Graphic Design training has been about Information Design, and I've often used that to organize as well.
I have a concept of Algorithms, know roughly what they can be used for and roughly how they go about doing it, but because I'm not a programmer, I couldn't distinguish one from another one if I saw them side by side. Data structures are also an interest, Databases and all ... (read more)
When you say "Clever Hans" are you talking specifically about the handler's subconscious cues determining what the dog does?
I'm thinking of it more as a variation on that idea. I think it's possible that in the button case, the buttons could be stand ins for cues from an owner. Simply training with the buttons over time would modify a dogs behavior based solely on the presence or absence of the button. Work the toys in, and you're simply training a dog to respond 'correctly' or 'incorrectly' in the presence or absence of a 'thing' associated with a p... (read more)
I tend towards the 'Clever Hans' hypothesis on this one too. Human language skills are much more complex due to our neurology, as are our cognitive abilities. That doesn't mean dogs aren't communicating at some rudimentary level, as they are at least able to recognize patterns and determine likely outcomes, even if they are at a more reflexive instead of reflective level. Hot dogs for example satisfy reflexive hunger based desires, instead of reflective philosophical desires to be seen as intelligent.
Of course one reason more of this type of research isn't... (read more)
When you say "Clever Hans" are you talking specifically about the handler's subconscious cues determining what the dog does? I think that's very unlikely, in a lot of interactions you can see an exchange where the pet is supposed to make a decision - the owner doesn't know the right answer! When Bunny presses "ouch stranger paw" to indicate a splinter in her paw, how was the owner supposed to "influence" that, without even being aware of the splinter? Some interactions are owner asking a question with a defined right answer, but there's clearly much more t... (read more)
That is actually really helpful, thank you. I get a lot into how words are used, as sometimes it's not so much the 'things' themselves which are the cause of disagreement, but rather the words used to describe our concepts of them in discussion. The concept of Gravity as a 'Moral' Force is a great example, one I've actually written about a little bit, actually around the same time as the post you're referring too, a little after I believe.
My take is both similar and different, and I'm currently trying to work out how to explain it, as it seems to nee... (read more)
Simply put, I think this is a pretty concrete example of neglected areas of research that skew our rational understanding of the world, and calls into question the reasons why this blind spot exists. Studying the reason for this blind spot is important as it relates to legislation, academic priorities and the politics underlying the domain.
On a related topic, the implications for AI/ML analysis of this area of research, especially as it pertains to other areas of research which would rely on statistics generated from 'all the available research' could pote... (read more)
Good post. I think when you look at the likely neural wiring underlying concerns like the ones you're bringing up, it's simply the case that unless you've developed the type of logic loops which actively consider these types of issues, they just don't occur to most people at a conscious level. This is an argument for the "Fish in the water" possibility.
For instance, the first 'caveperson' who discovered that eating rotten food would likely make you sick might have gone around telling everyone that "eating rotten food might make you sick" as he or she had p... (read more)
From any given moral perspective, progress in one moral dimension will basically always amount to regression in another
In my life experience, this is the type of observation which has led me to try and come up with a concept of Social Physics. This is a decent low level example of how I believe Newtons third law of Motion "For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction" applies to social studies.
I think Newtons laws of motion apply well here to an idea of privilege, and I'm debating currently doing a top level post on my ideas.
The birds outside don’t give a shit about how their chirps make us feel or what they make us think.
I strongly agree that birds are assholes.
Seriously though, I will delve into this tomorrow more, as it is relevant to my interests.
The use of environmental features to create memory and association provides durability beyond that of the brain, and allows for the possibility of multiple users.
Thanks for this and the first paragraph, I understand a little better what the Extended Mind concept is about. I tend to think of this sort of concept as External Memory, in that our phones, laptops, the Internet, notebooks and the like hold media like writing, video, audio and images, that can be rather directly encoded and decoded into meaning rather efficiently.
Whereas something like a st... (read more)
I find this idea of an Iterative Kickstarter particularly useful because of my fear of being taken advantage of.
This fear doesn't come out of nowhere; some work of mine from a student portfolio I created about 7 years ago as a graphic design student was basically stolen and I wasn't credited or paid for the work I had done. I sent it out as requested, with my resume while applying for design positions. Just last year I was watching tv and saw a sllightly changed version of the spec work I had done in my portfolio. Same type of... (read more)
Great course. I took it a few years back and got a lot out of it. I think as it relates to understanding the actual underlying physical processes of the brain and how they relate to making conscious meaning, it was super helpful to me.
Thanks for the link to the video. It's short and pretty concise and decent production quality, and frankly I don't disagree with most of it. It seems like in many ways this idea of an extended mindspace I'm getting from the video relates quite directly to a study like Social Factors Engineering and Industrial Psychology, both fields I thought of pursuing in school as I have interests in Architecture, Design, Industrial Design and Psychology. Environmental Press is the psychological effect your environment has on you and I'm absolutely convinced of the impo... (read more)
A lot of actor's have children that grow up to be actors because they hung out with actors growing up. A lot of politicians have children who grow up to be politicians because they hung out with politicians growing up. A lot of ex-convicts have children that grow up to be ex-convicts because they hung out with ex-convicts growing up. Access to resources, or lack of them, seem to have a huge impact on human potential. I often wonder how many of our characteristics are truly innate, and not just learned or trained. Nature or Nurture? An argument for nature undercuts the idea that education and good opportunities should be made available to everyone.
Tl;Dr: the last 2 paragraphs asks a question.
As I'm of the belief that it's only in hindsight, as a sentient human looking back at a theoretical bacterium and it's genes and formulating human meaning, that the gene has meaning, I'd like to offer an alternative word to consider which might make things easier in some ways.
This couple of sentences: "Consider a gene in an ancient bacterium, in a time before there were any other kinds of cell...this gene still meant something. But what exactly? The protein perhaps?"
What if we changed it slightly to this:... (read more)
First off, thanks for the thoughtful and insightful post, I really appreciate it. Most of my thinking is pretty cross disciplinary, as my educational training is in Art, but my reading, research and analysis runs the gamut. I've done some Visual Design and UX/UI as well. With this in mind, I claim to be an artist and not a scientist, although I try to combine the 2.
In this light, I subscribe to the idea that the Universe is essentially meaningless without a sentient life to attempt to interpret it. Those continual individual efforts in aggregat... (read more)
Not sure if this is the correct place to put this comment, but I think it seems to relate. Layman here with big ideas, and little ability to back it up. Which is why I'm here hoping for some clarity. So anyway, this comment struck a chord with me:
"Probably this view can be drawn from an analogy to the fact that MWI does not violate energy (or mass) conservation. Preumably stuff that matters is made out of stuff, and if the amount of stuff is conserved across time, then (all other things being equal) the sum total of what matters must be conserved across ti... (read more)
I love the social sciences, but they tend to tell you more about the people studying them then they do about the actual subjects they study. I'm a believer that much of the data in the Social Sciences would benefit from reexamination using recalibrated metrics, as the political shifts in the world of the last 50 years have caused seismic shifts in the ways data is collected, organized, and interpreted. I've got some ideas of major areas of the Social Sciences which need to be reconsidered, as they have significantly impacted legislation in ways that have c... (read more)
I think the efforts to focus on issues of 'Mental Health' pay only lip service to this point. We live in a culture which relies on male culture to be about learning to traumatize others and learning to tolerate trauma, while at the same time decrying it as toxic male culture. Males are rightly confused these days, and the lack of adequate social services combined with a country filled with guns that continues to promote media of all sorts that celebrates violence as long as it's 'good violence', is a recipe for this kind of tragedy. Focusing on the individual shooters as being the problem isn't the answer. It is a systemic problem I believe.
I think you make some key points kithpendragon.
Firstly "Reality comes to us in a series of sensory moments..." and "The tags and transformations that allow us to go from raw sensory information to the much-lower-dimensional objects that populate the map constitute Meaning"
From my readings on Cultural Theory I pull this statement "Culture creates meaning." At a much lower level of abstraction we have to look at some Evolutionary Psychology. In pre-verbal human society, how did they 'create meaning'? Without the use of language, the shared meaning came... (read more)
Thanks so much for the suggestions. I've got time on my hands, and so doing some reading to attempt to keep my head above water here just makes sense. I would love to pay for the book versions as they look like they would be best appreciated in print form, but right now free is the only way for me. I'm guessing my local library won't have copies and you mentioned free digital versions, can you expand on that idea?
I'm sure it's not the line you were expecting to be drawn, but I think it bears stating as a way to reduce the amount of the universe which needs to be considered when looking for an answer to your question. With relationship to the idea of energy at the quantum level and a range of temperatures at which 'consciousness' exists, contemporary processors run at a relatively high temperature, and- for the time being - quantum computers run at an extremely low temperature.
If, at the human level of perception, it is true that Consciousness requires t... (read more)