Slippery slopes are themselves a slippery concept. Imagine trying to explain them to an alien:

"Well, we right-thinking people are quite sure that the Holocaust happened, so banning Holocaust denial would shut up some crackpots and improve the discourse. But it's one step on the road to things like banning unpopular political positions or religions, and we right-thinking people oppose that, so we won't ban Holocaust denial."

And the alien might well respond: "But you could just ban Holocaust denial, but not ban unpopular political positions or religions. Then you right-thinking people get the thing you want, but not the thing you don't want."

This post is about some of the replies you might give the alien.

Abandoning the Power of Choice

This is the boring one without any philosophical insight that gets mentioned only for completeness' sake. In this reply, giving up a certain point risks losing the ability to decide whether or not to give up other points.

For example, if people gave up the right to privacy and allowed the government to monitor all phone calls, online communications, and public places, then if someone launched a military coup, it would be very difficult to resist them because there would be no way to secretly organize a rebellion. This is also brought up in arguments about gun control a lot.

I'm not sure this is properly thought of as a slippery slope argument at all. It seems to be a more straightforward "Don't give up useful tools for fighting tyranny" argument.

The Legend of Murder-Gandhi

Previously on Less Wrong's The Adventures of Murder-Gandhi: Gandhi is offered a pill that will turn him into an unstoppable murderer. He refuses to take it, because in his current incarnation as a pacifist, he doesn't want others to die, and he knows that would be a consequence of taking the pill. Even if we offered him $1 million to take the pill, his abhorrence of violence would lead him to refuse.

But suppose we offered Gandhi $1 million to take a different pill: one which would decrease his reluctance to murder by 1%. This sounds like a pretty good deal. Even a person with 1% less reluctance to murder than Gandhi is still pretty pacifist and not likely to go killing anybody. And he could donate the money to his favorite charity and perhaps save some lives. Gandhi accepts the offer.

Now we iterate the process: every time Gandhi takes the 1%-more-likely-to-murder-pill, we offer him another $1 million to take the same pill again.

Maybe original Gandhi, upon sober contemplation, would decide to accept $5 million to become 5% less reluctant to murder. Maybe 95% of his original pacifism is the only level at which he can be absolutely sure that he will still pursue his pacifist ideals.

Unfortunately, original Gandhi isn't the one making the choice of whether or not to take the 6th pill. 95%-Gandhi is. And 95% Gandhi doesn't care quite as much about pacifism as original Gandhi did. He still doesn't want to become a murderer, but it wouldn't be a disaster if he were just 90% as reluctant as original Gandhi, that stuck-up goody-goody.

What if there were a general principle that each Gandhi was comfortable with Gandhis 5% more murderous than himself, but no more? Original Gandhi would start taking the pills, hoping to get down to 95%, but 95%-Gandhi would start taking five more, hoping to get down to 90%, and so on until he's rampaging through the streets of Delhi, killing everything in sight.

Now we're tempted to say Gandhi shouldn't even take the first pill. But this also seems odd. Are we really saying Gandhi shouldn't take what's basically a free million dollars to turn himself into 99%-Gandhi, who might well be nearly indistinguishable in his actions from the original?

Maybe Gandhi's best option is to "fence off" an area of the slippery slope by establishing a Schelling point - an arbitrary point that takes on special value as a dividing line. If he can hold himself to the precommitment, he can maximize his winnings. For example, original Gandhi could swear a mighty oath to take only five pills - or if he didn't trust even his own legendary virtue, he could give all his most valuable possessions to a friend and tell the friend to destroy them if he took more than five pills. This would commit his future self to stick to the 95% boundary (even though that future self is itching to try to the same precommitment strategy to stick to its own 90% boundary).

Real slippery slopes will resemble this example if, each time we change the rules, we also end up changing our opinion about how the rules should be changed. For example, I think the Catholic Church may be working off a theory of "If we give up this traditional practice, people will lose respect for tradition and want to give up even more traditional practices, and so on."

Slippery Hyperbolic Discounting

One evening, I start playing Sid Meier's Civilization (IV, if you're wondering - V is terrible). I have work tomorrow, so I want to stop and go to sleep by midnight.

At midnight, I consider my alternatives. For the moment, I feel an urge to keep playing Civilization. But I know I'll be miserable tomorrow if I haven't gotten enough sleep. Being a hyperbolic discounter, I value the next ten minutes a lot, but after that the curve becomes pretty flat and maybe I don't value 12:20 much more than I value the next morning at work. Ten minutes' sleep here or there doesn't make any difference. So I say: "I will play Civilization for ten minutes - 'just one more turn' - and then I will go to bed."

Time passes. It is now 12:10. Still being a hyperbolic discounter, I value the next ten minutes a lot, and subsequent times much less. And so I say: I will play until 12:20, ten minutes sleep here or there not making much difference, and then sleep.

And so on until my empire bestrides the globe and the rising sun peeps through my windows.

This is pretty much the same process described above with Murder-Gandhi except that here the role of the value-changing pill is played by time and my own tendency to discount hyperbolically.

The solution is the same. If I consider the problem early in the evening, I can precommit to midnight as a nice round number that makes a good Schelling point. Then, when deciding whether or not to play after midnight, I can treat my decision not as "Midnight or 12:10" - because 12:10 will always win that particular race - but as "Midnight or abandoning the only credible Schelling point and probably playing all night", which will be sufficient to scare me into turning off the computer.

(if I consider the problem at 12:01, I may be able to precommit to 12:10 if I am especially good at precommitments, but it's not a very natural Schelling point and it might be easier to say something like "as soon as I finish this turn" or "as soon as I discover this technology").

Coalitions of Resistance

Suppose you are a Zoroastrian, along with 1% of the population. In fact, along with Zoroastrianism your country has fifty other small religions, each with 1% of the population. 49% of your countrymen are atheist, and hate religion with a passion.

You hear that the government is considering banning the Taoists, who comprise 1% of the population. You've never liked the Taoists, vile doubters of the light of Ahura Mazda that they are, so you go along with this. When you hear the government wants to ban the Sikhs and Jains, you take the same tack.

But now you are in the unfortunate situation described by Martin Niemoller:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me, but we had already abandoned the only defensible Schelling point

With the banned Taoists, Sikhs, and Jains no longer invested in the outcome, the 49% atheist population has enough clout to ban Zoroastrianism and anyone else they want to ban. The better strategy would have been to have all fifty-one small religions form a coalition to defend one another's right to exist. In this toy model, they could have done so in an ecumenial congress, or some other literal strategy meeting.

But in the real world, there aren't fifty-one well-delineated religions. There are billions of people, each with their own set of opinions to defend. It would be impractical for everyone to physically coordinate, so they have to rely on Schelling points.

In the original example with the alien, I cheated by using the phrase "right-thinking people". In reality, figuring out who qualifies to join the Right-Thinking People Club is half the battle, and everyone's likely to have a different opinion on it. So far, the practical solution to the coordination problem, the "only defensible Schelling point", has been to just have everyone agree to defend everyone else without worrying whether they're right-thinking or not, and this is easier than trying to coordinate room for exceptions like Holocaust deniers. Give up on the Holocaust deniers, and no one else can be sure what other Schelling point you've committed to, if any...

...unless they can. In parts of Europe, they've banned Holocaust denial for years and everyone's been totally okay with it. There are also a host of other well-respected exceptions to free speech, like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. Presumably, these exemptions are protected by tradition, so that they have become new Schelling points there, or are else so obvious that everyone except Holocaust deniers is willing to allow a special Holocaust denial exception without worrying it will impact their own case.

Summary

Slippery slopes legitimately exist wherever a policy not only affects the world directly, but affects people's willingness or ability to oppose future policies. Slippery slopes can sometimes be avoided by establishing a "Schelling fence" - a Schelling point that the various interest groups involved - or yourself across different values and times - make a credible precommitment to defend.

Schelling fences on slippery slopes
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There are also a host of other well-respected exceptions to free speech, like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.

I wonder how many people would use this example nowadays if they knew that it comes from a WW1-era U.S. Supreme Court opinion upholding a ten year prison sentence for sedition against an anti-war activist -- whose crime was to distribute pamphlets arguing that military conscription is unconstitutional under the 13th Amendment, which prohibits "involuntary servitude."

(By the way, speaking of slippery slopes, the following year the same court upheld another ten year conviction for a speech whose content was carefully crafted to remain within the bounds of the sedition laws, but which was still judged to be illegal on the grounds of intent and indirect implication.)

As an interesting side note, the grimly ironic pinnacle of these American WW1-era sedition laws was the ten-year sentence (another one!) against a certain Robert Goldstein for defying the censorship of his film about the American Revolution. The film was deemed to be seditious on the theory that it incited hostility towards Britain, a war ally.

2Nikola
Not much relevant to the discussion but I never knew that George Orwell in his novel 1984 was making a reference to a person that existed when talking about Goldstein, the leader of the revolution in the novel (or just mere coincidence perhaps?)
31point7point4
1984 (like animal farm) is an analogue to the USSR - Goldstein may represent Leon Trotsky. I’m not entirely sure if Emmanuel Goldstein corresponds to anyone, though - we don’t know a lot about him except that propaganda considers him a traitor.

You may be correct, but the speaker in that case was probably referencing the Italian Hall Disaster, a genuine precedent. A rationalist can't just chose to ignore a data point like just because they don't like the way it's normally used.

5Ben Pace
No, but the point is that what appear to be good examples are often used when they are inappropriate, so you should be wary of agreeing more with someone's position just because they say their case is analogous.

I wonder how many people would use this example nowadays if they knew that it comes from a WW1-era U.S. Supreme Court opinion upholding a ten year prison sentence for sedition against an anti-war activist -- whose crime was to distribute pamphlets arguing that military conscription is unconstitutional under the 13th Amendment, which prohibits "involuntary servitude."

Wow. The 'fire' thing doesn't even fit well as an analogy in that context. Your country scares me!

My country?! I'm not American. I haven't even been to the U.S. in several years.

(That said, you're Australian, right? I've definitely seen stuff written on LW that is technically illegal in Victoria -- google for "serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule," with the quotes.)

The fire analogy must be understood in the context of the legal test of "clear and present danger" that the court was upholding. The theory is that just as the shouting "fire" in a theater creates a clear and present danger of a stampede in which people get hurt, so does the anti-war agitation create a clear and present danger of subverting the war effort, in this case by inciting resistance to conscription.

Of course, you may reply that this "clear and present danger" stuff can be stretched this way without limit, but that is the point. (By the way, in U.S. jurisprudence, this standard has in the meantime been superseded by a much clearer one of imminent lawless action, which, whatever its overall merits and faults, has shown in practice to provide for a very strong Schelling point.)

My country?! I'm not American. I haven't even been to the U.S. in several years.

My apologies. I assumed too much from your evident awareness of US internal politics.

I've definitely seen stuff written on LW that is technically illegal in Victoria -- google for "serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule," with the quotes.

Without at all claiming that examples don't exist it isn't technical illegality that concerns me but actual instances of punishments, along the lines of the two cases of 10 year incarceration.

As you have illustrated, things being legal or otherwise is not too important. Far more important is the inclination of the judge (and the surrounding political incentives) to punish any given behavior. Both of the cases you cite illustrate how easily laws can be ignored by introducing a fully general excuse along the lines of "except when it is really politically expedient to do so!"

Without at all claiming that examples don't exist it isn't technical illegality that concerns me but actual instances of punishments, along the lines of the two cases of 10 year incarceration.

The Victorian law is one of those laws whose real meaning is quite different from its formal one. Read literally, it is a sweeping law that criminalizes anyone who says anything unkind about any religion. (It's literally criminal to "behav[e] in a way that encourages... revulsion or ridicule of another person, because of the other person's... religion," or to "encourage[]... severe ridicule of... [a] class of persons, because of their... religion.") Yet in practice, of course, it's tacitly clear what kinds of people should watch their mouths or else fear prosecution under this law, and who can in turn safely ignore it. (Generally, throughout the Western world, with the U.S. as a lone exception, modern speech restrictions commonly have this form, providing effectively a broad mandate for ideological censorship.)

Note also that a century ago people were tougher and had less to lose, so that much more severe penalties were necessary to get them in line. Also, a criminal or ... (read more)

Edit: By the way, none of these Americans (as far as I know) actually served a full ten-year sentence. They were all pardoned in the early 1920s by Warren Harding under his policy of "return to normalcy."

I take pleasure in reading this. Sanity is out there somewhere!

Yes, but it certainly hasn't won out when you look at the way Woodrow Wilson and Warren Harding are remembered nowadays...

2wedrifid
All else being equal (taking only the potential influence of these particular actions on popularity) that isn't encouraging. I don't know enough about US politics to know whether dislike of Harding is at all related to him having a nature such that he would make these (desirable) decisions.

How they're viewed has little to do with these decisions. Harding is seen as a weak President who was manipulated by those around him and who allowed corruption to flourish in his administration. The most famous example of this was The Teapot Dome Scandal. He may also, much like his successor Coolidge, have become associated with the boom that preceded the Great Depression.

Wilson is, unfairly I think, rewarded for leading America during WWI. This is in spite of the fact that he promised to keep America out of the war and managed to lose the peace that followed. Besides upholding sedition laws he did a number of other thoroughly un-liberal things.

How they're viewed has little to do with these decisions.

That is true, literally speaking. The point, however, is that the qualities that got Wilson celebrated and Harding forgotten or despised in the century since then were actually the same ones that led the former to fill jails with political prisoners and the latter to consider it unacceptable to preside over a country whose jails are filled with political prisoners. Besides, compared to the way things were done under Wilson, holding these petty corruption scandals as a heavy sin against Harding shows a complete lack of perspective.

But here we are getting into a historical and ideological discussion for which this forum is probably not a good place.

1Memento_mori
Harding also didn't join the League of Nations or forgive Germany's war debts, both of which seem likely to have increased the odds of WWII.
1juliawise
I heard somewhere that for the civil rights protesters of the 60s, going to jail had a very different meaning than it does for protester types today. Respectability was a much bigger deal then than now - those people dressed up in suits to protest and be arrested. At the time, the only marginally well-known precedent for being arrested for a good cause was Thoreau. I know people now who are proud of their protest-related arrest records, but that wasn't really a thing before the 60s.
0kodos96
Yes and no. In the last several decades there has certainly been a troubling trend of disregard for free speech in civil law - i.e. "cyberbullying" kinds of things, where people are now basically able to sue because their feelings got hurt. And you're absolutely correct about the cost of litigation having a strong multiplier effect on the "chillingness" of such suits. But in criminal law, things are definitely MUCH better today than they were in the WW1 era. For one thing we now have a de facto Shelling fence around punishment of speech which is explicitly political in nature (like protesting the draft).
2Laoch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland
4kodos96
That era, and those rulings, are pretty widely regarded as the low point of American first amendment jurisprudence. Things have rebounded significantly since then, and, as Vladimir points out, those cases have long since been superseded as binding case law. Edit: spelling.
4Eugine_Nier
I believe the theory was that he was promoting illegal activity, i.e., draft dodging.
4Jiro
I'm following posts up the chain to 2012 but I think I'll comment on this anyway: I don't think it's correct to say "its content was crafted to remain within the bounds of the laws, but was judged to be illegal on the grounds of intent and indirect implication". The law doesn't say "using X phrase is illegal, and if you don't use X phrase, you're in the clear". It actually uses the word "intent" to describe what is illegal; intent and implication is inherently a part of the law, and someone who is convicted based on intent and implication isn't convicted despite the law, he's convicted according to the law. Furthermore, even if it didn't say "intent", lots of laws are interpreted according to intent and implication. If a bank robbery law says you can't threaten to kill someone to get money, and the bank robber points a loaded gun at the bank teller, and the teller gives him money without him having to say a word, he doesn't get to say "the law requies a threat and I didn't say anything, so there's no threat"--he made an implicit threat.
3Dmytry
Wow, man, awesome kudos for this link. The slope indeed slips the other way; once you allow the supreme court to make fire in the theatre analogies, you can start prosecuting people for 'sediction', which is in direct contradiction with the principle of free speech as necessary for the liberty of a free state.

Thinking about this article a bit more, you're missing a very important point. Namely, a "Schelling fence" is often of supreme importance even when there aren't multiple interest groups involved. (Nor even time- or value-inconsistent versions of the same party.)

This is because in most cases of conflict, pre-commitments are difficult to communicate. If you're maintaining some line of defence against an opponent and you're credibly pre-committed to defend even if the cost of defence is higher than the value of the prize fought over, you're safe against a rational opponent who perceives this pre-commitment correctly. However, if you have no such pre-commitment, the opponent has the incentive to mount an overwhelming attack even if the cost of the attack is higher than the prize -- since in that case you'll find it rational to retreat and avoid fighting.

The trouble is, communicating pre-commitment credibly is difficult, since it's always in your interest to assert pre-commitment to defend as credibly as possible, but secretly plan to withdraw if your bluff gets called. So this is where the Schelling points come into play: a conspicuous Schelling point helps create a meeting... (read more)

3sketerpot
I know that discussing politics is Dangerous, but this is too tantalizing to ignore. Do you have any examples?

Try this thread.

Another approach to (or rather away from) slippery slopes is to see the entire slope as a single thing à la TDT. Gandhi, contemplating his willingness to make the trade to become 95% Gandhi, can also foresee that 95% Gandhi would make a similar trade to 90% Gandhi, and so on. So his first decision is acausally linked to the whole of the slope, and to decide to take one step is to decide to go all the way.

The concept predates explicit TDT and can be found in popular wisdom: how often have I heard "there is no just once" in fiction, whether a policeman asked to break the rules just this once, an alcoholic offered just one drink, etc. Kant's Categorical Imperative is similar.

Cf. the maxim "Everything you do is a decision about who you want to be", or the outside-view version, "The way a person does one thing is the way they do everything."

So his first decision is acausally linked to the whole of the slope, and to decide to take one step is to decide to go all the way.

(emphasis added)

No no no. His first decision is causally linked to the whole of the slope. If you draw out the DAG of causation, there's an arrow going right from "became 95% Gandhi" to "became 90% Gandhi", and an arrow going from "became 90% Gandhi" to "became 85% Gandhi", and so on (with some intermediate nodes depending on resolution).

I get the impression that "acausal" is an applause light here.

0[anonymous]
I think "acausal" (or logical) linkage was used as a generalization of "causal" linkage, as 'dependences that TDT would take into account'.
-1dlthomas
Or possibly a typo.
6A1987dM
I doubt that, given that he also said TDT instead of CDT, etc.

You are correct.

8Nathan Rosquist
[de-jargoning for newcomers] TDT, CDT, ADT := models of Decision Theory DAG := Directed Acyclic Graph
-2Will_Newsome
Thanks for noting the connection to Kant; ADT's minimally-metaphysical yet deontological approach, i.e. its Kantian approach, is its hallmark and triumph. (TDT goes heavier on the metaphysics and is weaker for it.)

It's a funny sort of deontology that is justified by the agent's preferences over its consequences ...

3Johnicholas
That's true, it is a funny sort of deontology. Note that Kant actually claimed that he was not preferring one consequence over another, he was finding a self-contradiction in one consequence, and no self-contradiction in the other. That is, "you should not steal" because, at the end of the slippery slope, there is a self-contradiction, something like "if everybody ought to steal, what does theft even mean?". (I'm trying to give Kant a fair shake, though I think he's wrong.)
1Will_Newsome
I'm really not very familiar with Kant, but I guess I always thought to frame it like, after an infinity of time certain norms will defeat themselves, and other norms will reinforce themselves, and if we are to support a self-defeating norm then that's like choosing to become counterfactual. Then endorsing a self-defeating norm seems metaphysically but not phenomenologically possible, and since Kant didn't care about metaphysics, it's straight up impossible. Or something, agh. But anyway it looks ADT-esque, except that Kant had a hard time with meta levels for some reason.
0thomblake
I don't think it's right to say that Kant didn't care about metaphysics. Given that his work on ethics was Metaphysics of Morality and that was based on the more-metaphysical Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morality. Whether one can choose a norm that is inconsistent, is a question for the noumenal world, not the phenomenal world.

I'd like to mention that I had an entire family branch hacked off in the Holocaust, in fact have a great uncle still walking around with a number tattooed on his forearm, and have heard dozens of eye witness accounts of horrors I could scarce imagine. And I'm still not okay with Holocaust Denial laws, which do exist where I live.

In part, this is just my aversion to abandoning the Schelling point you mention; but lately, this is becoming more of an actual concern: My country is starting to legislate some more prohibitions on free speech, all of them targeting one side of the political spectrum, and one of the main arguments touted for such laws is "well, we're already banning Holocaust denial, nothing wrong came of that, right?".

The slope can be slippery indeed...

Given the discussion, strictly speaking the pill reduces Ghandi's reluctance to murder by 1 percentage point. Not 1%.

6Cyan
Glad I'm not the only person who noticed. Pedantry for the win! (Upvoted.)
[-]prase230

A true pedant would insist on correct spelling of Gandhi's name.

[-]Cyan180

Touché. I'll have to tear up my Pedantry Association membership card.

-1joraine
What is the difference?

Couldn't the alien argue that slippery slopes slip both ways? If we start allowing Holocaust denial, soon it will be legal to yell "fire!" in a theater.

You know... if I actually yelled "Fire!" in a theater I think I'd just end up with people looking at me like I was a dick.

The example when coined almost certainly was a reference to the famous Italian Hall Disaster in which it seems 73 people died because of someone falsely yelling "fire".

If you shout from the middle of the crowd - probably so. If you enter - visibly exhalirated - just to shout "Fire!", there is a risk.

[-]jefftk100

Fire suppression systems have gotten better, we don't overcrowd theaters anymore, and we now use electricity for lighting instead of burning things, so fires are less common and not as dangerous.

2aphyer
This. This this this. I feel like the "fire in a crowded theater" example is a pretty painfully outdated one. If you imagine a more crowded theater made of dry wood with no sprinklers/fire extinguishers, it becomes a lot more reasonable to expect people to panic at the thought of a fire.
2TimS
I think the prevalence of the "falsely shouting fire in theater" quote is a product of usage of that quote in an important freedom speech decision (that ultimately ruled against free speech). Thomblake suggests convincingly that the quote was referencing a then recent disaster, but you are correct that the circumstances in theaters today are so different that the quote lacks the same impact as when it was written. In other words, the same legal reasoning today would probably be supported by a more culturally relevant example. For what it is worth, the legal standard on liability for possible harm from speech is different (and more speech protective) than the decision in the Schenk case from which the quote originates.
1AndHisHorse
Yes, but the danger of a false call of "Fire!" lies in the subsequent stampede (and, even if no one is hurt, the inevitable disruption of everyone's prior activity).
7jefftk
Wedrifid was saying that people aren't that likely to stampede or even evacuate if someone yells "fire" now. I think he's right. If I started shouting "fire" right now I think the people around me would think I'd snapped and would at the least ask what I was seeing that they weren't. (If I actually wanted people to listen to me I would start by asking "do you smell fire?" to the person next to me. Two people shouting fire is much less likely to be someone hallucinating.)
-1Lumifer
Real life, 2007 -- 100 dead. Real life, 2013 -- 242 dead.
3[anonymous]
Reality is more complicated than that. Grandparent is right about deaths from fire in many parts of the world. The following deals with the fire death rate from 1979 to 1992. -- "Fire Death Rate Trends: An International Perspective" For the US in particular, this trend has continued into the present. We leave as an exercise to the reader what exactly the flaw in your argument was.
1wedrifid
(By convention there the reference is to 'grandparent', not 'parent'. Context is sufficient here to correct the meaning but in less clear circumstances it would be misleading.)
2[anonymous]
Fixed.
2Kawoomba
Single datapoints rarely matter with these kinds of things. The overall statistics strongly support the grandparent's point.
-3Lumifer
"These kinds of things" are public perception and, in particular, public perception of risks and what to be afraid of. For these kinds of things single datapoints matter a great deal. Prime example: 9/11. Public perception of risks notoriously does not care about statistics.
6Kawoomba
I see, I took you to be responding only to jkaufman's comment. Since rare dangers typically get more publicity than common dangers, we might even expect that under many circumstances public angst may increase as the actual danger decreases (due to the remaining incidents getting overreported).
1Lumifer
Nowadays you might also get charged with making terrorist threats. Speaking of nowadays, screaming "It's a bomb, it's going to blow" is probably going to be much more effective at creating stampedes...
1wedrifid
Or, for that matter, held without charge or trial. Or perhaps "Look! It's Justin Bieber and he's taking his shirt off!".
4keddaw
Any theatre offering access to the public should be able to evacuate all patrons safely in the event of a real fire, thus someone falsely yelling "fire!" simply inconveniences people and should be banned by the owner. There is no need to get the police involved and have this ridiculous example as legitimisation on limits on free speech in a public arena. There are limits that should be upheld, but not necessarily by police (e.g. someone being slandered could sue rather than have the slanderer arrested.) Incitement to violence may be banned as a pragmatic measure, but that would be my Schelling point (and even then I'm not 100% sure...)

Being able to evacuate all patrons with sufficient safety is not necessarily the same thing as being able to evacuate all patrons with perfect safety.

-5keddaw
5ArisKatsaris
A theater than can protect its patrons against a real fire doesn't necessarily equal a theater that can protect its patrons against a false fire. Nor do I find it more reasonable to ban businesses that are incapable of protecting all patrons against the repercussions of all types of lying. I find it far more reasonable, and much of a "Schelling point" to ban spreading knowingly false information. That's effectively a matter of degree -- you're just saying that the punishment should be a fine instead of a prison sentence. It's not really a difference in kind.
-2keddaw
That is a patently false statement. And thus the slippery slope becomes a teflon cliff. One is criminal and the other is civil? One is a dispute between two (equal under the law) individuals in front of a (supposedly) impartial judge and the other is the state versus an individual? Quite a lot of difference really.
4ArisKatsaris
How do you know this? In the case of a true fire, fire extinguishers may activate, fire exits might automatically open, or perhaps the theater's army of flying robots would come and carry everyone to safety. Or perhaps the theater is designed from such materials that it can't catch fire. Excuse me? The concept of "knowing lie" isn't a good enough Schelling Point for you? I'm in favour of banning the act of falsely shouting "Fire" in a theater, for the exact same reason that I'm in favour of banning the act of giving poison to other people while calling it "orange juice" I don't think you'd have any opposition to treating the latter an act of murder, why are you against treating the former likewise an act of murder? This is a legalism, a difference in labelling, nothing else. Again mere legalism. In practical terms, it's the same, at least from the point of view of the accused -- you get accused for something, someone is accusing you, if you're found guilty you get punished. Simple as that.
3Elithrion
I believe there actually is a salient distinction between the two. Namely, whereas the harm in the poisoning is the act of placing the poison in the drink and giving it to another person, the act in shouting "Fire!" is in the believing that there is no fire and the harm resulting from the shout. While the distinction would not amount to much for an all-knowing god, in reality it would probably prove difficult to establish what the person shouting expected the result to be, and to determine whether he had believed there was a fire or not. Punishing alarmist statements is indeed a potential slippery slope - if someone shouts "Earthquake!" in the middle of a crowded street and pedestrians panic and someone ends up in the traffic, shall we prosecute this shouter too? Or what if someone proclaims that the nation is under imminent threat of nuclear attack and this results in massive economic disruption as people try to hoard survival-type goods? The problem here is that it is difficult for a court to assess whether the person actually believed what they said, and whether they anticipated (perhaps a priori rationally) that there would be no negative consequences of their proclamation. It may also interest you to know that the original "shouting fire in a crowded theater" claim was part of a judicial ruling written by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in which the Supreme court unanimously ruled that it was a violation of the Espionage Act of 1917, to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I, which I think is a suitable example of its slippery slope potential. My general impression is that while there have been real instances of deaths caused by such shouts, most of these occurred before recent times, although I am not too confident in this.
5TimS
Courts do this all the time. Further, there's a well developed set of doctrines about when a person is held responsible for consequences that the person did not actually anticipate. More generally, the quote about falsely shouting fire is not intended to support a particular test for the limits of freedom of speech. Rather, the quote makes the point that speech is not unlimited.I can agree that Schneck's conviction should have been overturned without believing that no pure speech can have legal consequences. As an aside, the current test in the United States is imminent lawless action, a much more pro-speech standard. Nonetheless, a knowing false statement likely to lead to multiple injuries is almost certainly punishable by the criminal law.
0Elithrion
Thanks, that helps update my knowledge of the current standards. I certainly agree that what you say is reasonable, however I do not think that a potential for a slippery slope effect can be eliminated through carefully formulated test or doctrines (merely substantially reduced). For example, it is conceivable that in emergencies the fact that we now accept some restrictions on free speech will make it much easier to accept further restrictions and thus make unreasonable restriction more likely. Whether that is a reasonable compromise depends on the actual danger of "pure speech" causing negative consequences, on alternative ways of mitigating them, and on the actual degree of the slipperiness of the slope. Personally, based on my current knowledge, I would prefer to pursue various alternatives before resorting to criminal legal action, however that's dependent on actual facts and has little to do with the main topic being discussed.
2TimS
This distinction breaks down very quickly. Consider Hustler v. Falwell, which limited the scope of civil remedies because enforcement of those remedies violated freedom of speech.
1Blueberry
Or, more recently, Phelps v. Snyder, where the Court overturned a jury verdict for intentional infliction of emotional distress based on Fred Phelps's First Amendment protected funeral protest.
0keddaw
Limiting the scope of a civil remedy is somewhat removed from the distinctions between civil and criminal, no?
3TimS
No. If you really believe the public/private distinction is solid, then the First Amendment has nothing to do with private (i.e. civil) disputes. So Hustler should have come out the other way. In general, American law has really struggled with the public/private distinction. I would say this is because the distinction is not rigorously meaningful - although I doubt most judges would frame it quite that way. Regardless of the framing, American law recognizes that the situation of "two equal individuals before an impartial judge" includes the fact that the judge is an arm of government, exercising government power. What that means in practice is less clear. Compare Shelley v. Kraemer ("That the action of state courts and judicial officers in their official capacities is to be regarded as action of the State within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment is a proposition which has long been established by decisions of this Court.") with Schiavo v. Schiavo (holding that a state judge ordering the removal of a feeding tube is not state action).
-1Dmytry
I've heard it argued this way. I've also started an argument on some other forum, to test some ideas, with regards to the 'harm principle' (in law). Most of the laws of free countries do conform to harm principle, even though it is not in constitution and a few laws don't (usually for quite bad reason and with very ineffective enforcement). But if you try to bring it up you get slippery slope arguments along the lines of "if we start legalizing harmless behaviours we'd have to legalize driving on other side of the road". Try talking to authoritarians and you can see them argue the slippery slopes the other way. It must be noted though that there's much longer way to slip in the direction of disallowing speech, than in the direction of allowing speech.

Very good post! I feel like I understand the concept of slippery slopes much better now. The breakdown into different categories of "slippery slope argument", and cases where they would be valid, is one I find especially useful.

It does make me wonder whether the existence of "slippery slopes" is based on the flawed design of human brains, i.e. hyperbolic discounting, and just the general tendency to alter beliefs for self-consistency or because they sound/feel better. (An example of this would be a real-life version of Gandhi's pill, where starting out with a small not-very-bad act which someone can justify within their moral system, like stealing candy, could lead someone to be more comfortable with stealing in general and end up stealing much bigger things.) Would a non-human 'perfectly rational' alien, one that didn't hyperbolically discount and had no tendency to automatically update their beliefs/moral system so that their past actions weren't evil, still need to worry about slippery slope arguments?

4John_Maxwell
Not from hyperbolic discounting or value drift. Maybe from other sources, like the coalition argument presented by Yvain.
5Stuart_Armstrong
You could still hit them with large rewards for making themselves less rational, and thus recreate the slippery slope argument along that axis.
5Eugine_Nier
Or large rewards for changing their utility function.

I think you are dismissing the abandoning the power of choice argument unfairly. I'll try to give it a better formulation than you did.

There is a decision to make. The question is not just "A or B?" It is "How shall this type of choice be made?" and "Who shall make this type of choice?"

Changing how decisions of this type are made and who makes them are dangerous. "Holocaust denial is verboten," implies "There are authorities who decide what beliefs are acceptable." and "Individuals cannot be trusted to seriously consider all alternatives for belief." The second is true, because by removing the ability to reject the holocaust removes the ability to consider if the histories are reliable.

For the Civilization example. "I should decide on when to go to sleep based on a prior rule I accepted." is a different principle than "I should decide on when to go to sleep based on my current enjoyment of whatever I am doing now."

Admittedly, I rarely make arguments of the slippery slope form. I prefer to point out the toxic principles being accepted.

A thought inspired by an exchange upthread with Vladimir, but more general than what we were immediately discussing:

It seems that (e.g., political) extremism may be a result of a certain perception of where the Schelling points are and an application of meta-level thinking to the slope, even where basic preferences aren't changed much. Suppose that it is 11:30 and you are playing Civ. You want to play until 11:40 and then stop, but you know that if you do you'll want to play until 11:50 and then stop, etc.

If you think everything is a nice round number, you can just say "I'm going to stop at 11:40" and then do it. This is great if you're not lying to yourself, which you probably are. If you think :00s and :30s are nice round numbers, you can compare how you feel about stopping now, 10 minutes earlier than your current ideal, to stopping at midnight, 20 minutes after it. Trivially so for whatever other round numbers you might see, &c.

But suppose to yourself: "but why should my night be dictated by what I think at 11:30?" Well, because that's who you are at this point in time, and thus whose desires reason consists in fulfilling, obviously. But: you are in a s... (read more)

4A1987dM
Meh. I just say "20 more minutes" and set up an alarm timer. Pomodoro technique FTW. (And when the alarm goes off, if I still want to do what I'm doing, I halve the time and restart the timer. This way, the total time I waste can't exceed twice the original time I used, in this case 40 minutes.)
[-]taw160

In parts of Europe, they've banned Holocaust denial for years and everyone's been totally okay with it.

You should look closer, they're banning speech left and right all across Europe under variety of trivial reasons.

And let's not forget the speech being banned under American influence.

7thomblake
That does not follow. As Giles suggests, the UK does not have a law against Holocaust denial, and the UK is the relevant country for libel tourism, which is the only phenomenon you linked to. Furthermore, the UK standards for libel are very old, and there has been some success in the UK in reducing them. This is partially in response to pressure from the US, which no longer extradites for speech violations that are not illegal in the US, in direct response to libel tourism. I'd link to a reference with details on all this, but you already did.
5Giles
I thought that libel tourism was basically a UK thing, which doesn't have a law against Holocaust denial. I guess I'm saying: * Different nations can have different Schelling fences * Some nations can establish Schelling fences and others can be on slippery slopes. The strategy of the nations with Schelling fences would depend on the extent to which they care about the other nations.
[-]TimS120

like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.

Pedantic-lawyer Tim says the exception is for falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater.

Edit: But the general point is right. Lots of law is some implementation of: "Better decided clearly now than decided correctly some vague time in the future."

[-][anonymous]110

I am surprised that pedantic-lawyer Tim does not also point out the origin of that phrase.

Specifically, the case Schenck v United States in which "falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater" was used as an analogy for protesting the draft.

I have therefore always been troubled by the origin of the phrase, even though it feels like a reasonable exception to make.

Edit: And now I see that Vladimir_M has already posted this.

3FiftyTwo
Reminds me of the "best defence against libel is truth."
2wedrifid
I doubt it. It doesn't seem likely that for some reason declarations that happen to be true will be the optimal declarations to make.
5FiftyTwo
Sorry I may have been unclear, the quote means that when accused of libel a defendant can be exonerated if they prove the statement to be true, however damaging it might have been shown to be by the prosecution. So to count as libellous a statement must be both false and have done provable damage to reputation. As such the easiest way to prove a statement is not libellous is to show it is true. Rather than, how I think you interpreted it as meaning, that when libelled one should tell the truth in response.
1Eugine_Nier
Unfortunately, at least in certain jurisdictions, the burden is on you to prove that what you say is true.
2Incorrect
A good burden requirement would be more qualified than either of those approaches. I don't want to have to prove I do not spend my nights fantasizing about eating babies in the privacy of my own thoughts.
4FiftyTwo
"I'm not saying my fellow candidate is a terrorist, but ladies and gentlemen, has he presented any conclusive evidence that he is not?"
4TimS
"I just want to make him deny it."
0Eugine_Nier
And I would argue you should have the right to make that statement.
0wedrifid
Ahh, that makes sense! That's right.

Great post. Very clear and concise as usual. I recently read an interesting article by Eugene Volokh on slippery slopes focused specifically on gay marriage, which you can find in pdf form here. (If you don't like pdf's, the title is "Same-Sex Marriage and Slippery Slopes.") Interestingly, he also discusses the US's first amendment as something like a Schelling point, though he doesn't use the same terminology.

In parts of Europe, they've banned Holocaust denial for years and everyone's been totally okay with it. There are also a host of other well-respected exceptions to free speech, like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater

From what Volokh says in the article, it seems that many countries aside from the US don't have as strong of protections for freedom of speech. E.g., in Canada and Sweden ministers have been prosecuted for comments condemning homosexuality.

3novalis
Volokh actually also has an older, more general article, "Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope. It's well worth reading.
0A1987dM
To include links, use [link text](http://url.example). Click on the “Show help” button under the edit box for more info about markdown.
1novalis
Thanks. I always screw that one up, but I usually notice and correct it. I wish LW would just accept HTML.
1gwern
Well, the posts do. (It's the HTML button in the toolbar in the WYIWYG edit box.)
0RobinZ
The "Political Momentum Slippery Slopes" section in that link seems to make some features of US political discourse a lot clearer to me.

I am new to the website. So new that this is my first comment and I didn't even particularly want to sign up. I found it interesting having just come from reading Eleizer's post about 0 and 1 not being probabilities to here I immediately had a question form in my mind.

How certain of a thing do we have to be in order to prescribe that the state be able to end someone's life for their speaking it?

There are several points in this question that require some unpacking. The most prominent being about the state being able to end someone's life. Though people are generally self-seeking and somewhat rational in being so (so taking a prison sentence over engaging in a shootout with police), any action we ask the state to police is then done so with the threat that the state has total authority to use lethal force in the case of serious non-compliance. If we grant that the state has the right to put people in prison for an action, we grant that the state has the right to kill someone for refusing to comply with the states right to put them in prison.

So how certain of a thing do we have to be in order to grant the state the right to kill someone who questions it? Can any... (read more)

Firstly, welcome!

Beyond a certain probability (say 99.9% confidence that a story is true in its generality, even if one is less sure of some of the specifics), it seems to me that the truthfulness of the story is no longer the main consideration in whether to instigate such a law. In that case I would be more interested in how such a law would alter the incentives of society and the knock-on effects of such. Not making a decision due to imperfect information can often be a mistake.

The point about granting the state authority to end a life for breaking any law isn't something I'd thought about before and is a very interesting one. I feel like it possibly proves too much if relied on too heavily to make decisions about which laws to implement - I can apply the same argument to speeding but that isn't a strong argument against speeding laws. The strength of the argument depends on how often one would expect such a death to occur. Assuming this list is typical, the argument is much stronger in e.g. the US than in Europe (where it can be all but ignored).

I do think that Holocaust denial laws are problematic if you're not allowed to say anything even slightly less sev... (read more)

2Motasaurus
Thank you for your response. I don't think you are misunderstanding me. I can't present certain evidence or even write too extensively on this topic (which is in part why I phrased everything as a non-specific question in the first place) as there are two publicly known cases where people in the country I live have ended up facing court for writing in a public forum on the internet - one was sent to prison for being the owner of a revisionist website that was hosted in the U.S. In a more general discussion of these examples (as specifics are legally tenuous), were there evidence to the contrary regarding the use of gas chambers or the number of the dead, what is the probability that the discoverer of such would be chilled in their speech from reporting this evidence, compared to were these convictions not in place? I can think of an experiment to test this - how many people question these facts where the questions themselves are not illegal (the US for example) compared to where they are (Germany)? The second question is that what is the probability the evidence will be judged on its own merits when people have been convicted for presenting it, compared to when people have not? I can't think of any way to quantitatively evaluate this since we live in a world where people /have/ been convicted for presenting evidence to the contrary. Leaving aside evaluations of truthfulness, or even the specific topic at hand, what is the effect on encouraging rationalism to society at large when some conclusions are a priori prohibited no matter what the evidence may find? Eleizer writes in at least one (though it feels like many) of the introductory guides of the dangers of making conclusions before evaluating the evidence - and that this leads humans to reject evidence that doesn't fit the conclusion and seek out evidence that does. Doesn't using legal systems to prosecute conclusions set up a society-wide bias that forces true evidence to be rejected?
7Bucky
In the most general sense, any law which impinges on free speech has the potential to be detrimental to accuracy of beliefs. For example, if I make a defamatory claim about someone and they take me to court, the onus is on me to prove that what I said was true (at least in the UK). This will discourage me from making a claim that I believe to be true but don't have strong evidence for and so I cannot publish some true information. In the US the burden of proof would be more on the person who I defamed to show that what I said was false (I'm not a legal expert, I got this from an episode of The Good Wife!). This is a lesser brake on free speech and allows me to say things which I am confident are true, even if my proof would be insufficient for a UK court. However, there is a flip side. Completely free speech is not beneficial for truth seeking unless all members of the society can be trusted to communicate in good faith. Without any defamation laws everyone can say whatever they like about anyone else and no-one knows what to believe. I can imagine circumstances where if the burden of proof is overly on the defamed then people can make up things which are very hard to disprove and again the truth can suffer. Another example would be that hate-speech laws discourage racism but also make it more difficult for people to discuss the possibility of differences between races. So the choice of where to draw the line on free speech includes a play-off between allowing accurate evidence to be presented and preventing bad faith communication. In the case of Holocaust denial I don't think it would be too controversial to suggest that most revisionist theories constitute bad faith communication (I'll be honest, I haven't looked at any myself). My personal preference on this wouldn't be to ban holocaust denial, as the social norms where I am from are sufficiently strong that they constitute enough of a barrier to Holocaust denial entering the main stream but I can certain
2Motasaurus
Thank you. I think you are right. I did not sit down and think through this idea before proposing it. Such an experiment would not just be useless, it would probably be worse than useless. I think it would give meaningless data that could easily be confused for meaningful. I appreciate the correction. I think that this is wise, but perhaps it just comforms to my own opinions. You made not about libel and slander - both of which I agree with your positions on. The difference, as I can fathom it, between being able to sue someone for saying something that is untrue (whomever the burden of proof is on), and making questioning parts of an event illegal, is in the quest for truth. In the case of a legally protected event, you can never prove whether or not what you are saying is true. In the particular case we are speaking of, even to present true evidence that is 1/googleplex against being false is itself a crime, and the evidence inadmissible in your defense. I can't comprehend how rationality can hope to propagate in an environment that values social nicety over truth.
2Bucky
The point I was trying to make was that social nicety is a prerequisite for truth, or if not social nicety per se, at least good faith communication. In general I'd agree that society values nicety more highly than is strictly healthy. To propagate rationality in such circumstances you focus on the battles that you can win. I'm not optimistic about rationality propagating fast but I don't think focusing on extreme and emotionally charged hypotheticals will get us there any faster. Maybe give it another 30 years and we'll see where we are! (Of course if this is less hypothetical then this discussion would be a very different one.)

>Give up on the Holocaust deniers, and no one else can be sure what other Schelling point you've committed to, if any...
>
>...unless they can. In parts of Europe, they've banned Holocaust denial for years and everyone's been totally okay with it.

I'd say this has aged poorly, except it was evident at the time this was written as well, if not quite as much.  Europeans have managed to slippery-slope from banning Holocaust denial to banning political speech that could be painted as related to an oppressed group in any way, so you get people prosecuted for objecting to immigration or to trans politics.

1green_leaf
As a European, there aren't any problems with free speech. I've read this twice already from anonymous people online some years ago, and when I asked them for the source, I never got a response. Do you have a source that in some European country, you can get prosecuted for objecting to immigration?
2Jiro
It's not hard to google this. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41295-020-00215-4 (paywall, but the synopsis is enough to prove that they exist) https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Prosecuted%2C-yet-popular-Hate-speech-prosecution-of-Jacobs-Spanje/dcd9bd4a1cea597377b74083e6ba560060cec9d3 (ditto) https://www.fairus.org/blog/2016/08/31/free-speech-except-about-illegal-immigration Here's a trans politics one: https://archive.ph/9ugnq
1green_leaf
The first two are identical. The third is a xenophobic portal and the fourth is, in fact, transphobic (not merely "against transgender politics"). What I had in mind was speaking up against immigration and also not being hate speech.
2Jiro
That's like saying "I wanted an example of someone being put in jail for just marijuana possession, and also not being arrested." "Hate speech" is the excuse used by Europe to prosecute people for objecting to immigration. It's something you guys made up in order to stop free speech.
6gjm
Obviously green_leaf's claim is not merely that the people being prosecuted for objecting to immigration are being accused of hate speech, but that they are doing things that a reasonable person would consider hate speech rather than merely "objecting to immigration" and that the latter, if done not-hatefully, doesn't get anyone prosecuted. The paywalled article at your first and second links proves that some people are objecting to immigration and getting prosecuted for hate speech, but (at least on this side of the paywall) doesn't make it clear exactly what they're saying, hence doesn't let us tell whether they're just "objecting to immigration" as opposed to, say, calling immigrants vermin or suggesting that they should be thrown into the sea or something. The third link gives several purported examples but again doesn't do much to clarify exactly what was said in each case. * Markos Vasilakis: I don't have the text of his sermon or anything, but the Gatestone Institute article about it links to a Greek-language article that quotes some fragments and (from Google's translation, whose accuracy I can't vouch for) it doesn't seem as if the Gatestone Institute is being very honest when e.g. it says that he merely "express[ed] accurately the percentages of refugees and illegal migrants entering the country". Also, was he actually prosecuted? The GI article says that the government "asked the district attorney to prosecute" Vasilakis, but that doesn't seem like it's the same thing. * British man arrested "for tweeting about a conversation he had with a Muslim woman about terrorism": he tweeted that he had "confronted" a Muslim woman and demanded that she "explain" the terrorist attacks that had recently happened in Brussels, and followed it up by saying "Britain is for Britain's" (presumably he meant "Britons") and "Who cares if I insulted some towelhead?". Whatever you might think about that, I don't think "objecting to immigration" is a reasonable description o
2Jiro
If you think it's possible to object to immigration in Europe in a manner similar to other political views, in a way which can't easily be painted as 'hate speech', I'd like to know some examples of things which can be said, without watering down objections to immigration.
5gjm
Well, since your earlier claim was that people are being prosecuted "for objecting to immigration" and so far as I can tell none of the people in the FairUS article were actually prosecuted, one answer to that would be "all the things the people you used as examples said". But here are a few other concrete examples of people saying anti-immigration things without being prosecuted. The examples I've given are of politicians because they tend to be the people who say these things very visibly and get reported on. They're mostly from the UK because that's where I am and English is the language I know best. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoieBSjNpqA Nigel Farage: "I think that if you have an immigration rate that runs too high, with people who speak different languages, have a totally different culture, and in particular attitudes towards women and their place in society, then I think you're storing up for yourself an enormous problem which then leads to cities with divided communities." Complains that after a period with ~30k immigrants per year "Blair opened the doors, the Tories have kept them open, and that's why this has now become a big political issue". * https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63466532 Suella Braverman (the UK's "Home Secretary"): "The British people deserve to know which party is serious about stopping the invasion on our southern coast and which party is not. Some 40,000 people have arrived on the south coast this year alone, many of them facilitated by criminal gangs, some of them actual members of criminal gangs." She got some criticism for this, unsurprisingly, but equally unsurprisingly she did not face prosecution or official censure by the House of Commons or losing her job near the top of the UK government. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNeV_Wo0SNE Richard Tice of the "Reform Party" talking about a "betrayal of Brexit" represented by current levels of immigration to the UK. "They've betrayed us on taking back control of lawfu
4Jiro
That's not what I asked for. What I asked for was And there's a reason why. "Hate speech" censorship works by having vague, broad, rules that let the governments censor anything they want related to the subject. The fact that the government hasn't actually chosen to use this unlimited discretion all the time, yet, doesn't mean that they don't have it. Are you claiming that not only were those statements not prosecuted as hate speech, but they can't be prosecuted as hate speech? If he wanted to claim that such immigrants are merely disproportionately criminals, thus not using the literally false word "all", would he be permitted to do that? Would it matter if they actually are disproportionately criminals?
6gjm
This seems like obvious goalpost-moving. What you originally said is that people are being prosecuted for objecting to immigration. I think you should provide some examples of people being prosecuted for objecting to immigration. I looked at the things you cited, and not one of them seems to be that. But now you're demanding examples of anti-immigration sentiments that can't possibly be painted as "hate speech", that couldn't possibly result in prosecution. That seems like an obviously impossible demand; if I give what I claim is an example, you can just say "nah, they'd totally call that hate speech" or "so it didn't get prosecuted this time, but it totally could have". Do you have examples of people being prosecuted just for objecting to immigration? Or did you claim that that's happening without having any evidence? Reminder: what you said was: I think you should (1) show us some compelling examples where the thing you claimed happens has actually happened, preferably enough and clear enough to show that it's an actual pattern and an isolated weird one-off; or (2) explain what good reason you have for believing that "you get people prosecuted for objecting to immigration" that doesn't enable you to provide a compelling list of examples; or (3) admit that you made that claim without actual grounds for thinking it to be true. As for the weaker claim you are making now: it may well be true that laws around "hate speech" are too vague and too broad. However, I invite you to show me a law valid in (let's say) the UK, France, or Germany, that makes it a criminal offence for someone to say, for instance, "In my opinion, societies with high immigration rates are less stable, and I therefore think that my country should reduce its immigration rate by a factor of 10" or "Immigration is expensive and many immigrants cost the country they move to more than any economic benefit they provide, and I therefore think my country should only permit immigration by people with
2Jiro
They are. A subset of them prosecuted is still people being prosecuted. Using "hate speech" as an excuse to prosecute them doesn't mean it doesn't count, since "hate speech" is so broad it can apply to anyone. The original claim is directly related to the "weaker" claim, because if "hate speech" is broad, prosecuting them for it is just an excuse for prosecuting them for something else; they're really being prosecuted because they don't like immigration. But that waters down the previous statement. It no longer claims that immigrants have high crime rates, and uses the vague term "stable". If you were asked to clarify and you said "by stable I mean low crime, since immigrants are disproportionately criminals", that's still hate speech. (And of course the government could say "he said 'stable', but that's a dogwhistle for 'high crime'. Illegal hate speech.")
7gjm
Suppose I say "these days there's so much racism that you can get arrested for being black". You express some slight skepticism about this. I present five examples of black people getting arrested. You point out that they were arrested for assault, tax fraud, libel, and theft. I say "A subset of them arrested is still people being arrested". You would, I take it, not be impressed. If you say that people are being prosecuted for objecting to immigration, you need to show us some examples where that is what they are being prosecuted for. (Though ... a first step would be showing us some people being prosecuted at all, for anything, which so far you haven't bothered to do.) No, it's completely separate from the previous statement. The two anti-immigration propositions I mentioned are not intended to be equivalents of any other anti-immigration things that have been discussed elsewhere in the thread. They are examples of ways in which one could "object to immigration" while facing no, zero, none, zilch, zip, nada, risk of prosecution for it. Which (if I am right about the risk being negligible) shows that it isn't true that objecting to immigration puts you at risk of prosecution. It's other things that do that. You made the claim that "you get people prosecuted for objecting to immigration". You have presented no examples of this. You have in fact presented no examples of people getting prosecuted at all, and it's not clear that any of the examples you've (indirectly) given are of people who were merely "objecting to immigration". You have given no specific examples of relevant laws. You have given no specific examples of things someone could do that (1) could reasonably be described as merely "objecting to immigration" and (2) would pose any real risk of prosecution. What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. It is not my job to give you examples of people who couldn't be prosecuted. You claim that "you get people prosecuted for objecting
2Jiro
I'd respond "is assault defined in such a way that it can be used against most black people, and it just isn't because of government whim? If