So, I have trouble reconciling statements like "Could we say that the rant contains misogynistic ideas? Yes" and "I have trouble seeing his views as analogous to racism." You seem to be saying that he's stating misogynistic ideas but that's really okay, reasonable, and ultimately sympathetic--which I don't know what to do with.
The reason you are seeing seemingly-conflicting assessments is because I am conflicted over exactly which aspects of the rant are misogynistic or not, and why. I could make arguments either way. If being insulting towards women is misogynistic, then some of his language (e.g. "infantile") is misogynistic. If "unleashing cynicism and resentment" is a threat rather than an observation or impersonal prediction, then it would be misogyny. As for making generalizations about women's preferences based on his experience that are wrong, I think it's more tenuous to call that misogyny.
The reason I sympathize with him is that he had a life of romantic rejection due to bullshit that was fed him, and that he hasn't actually harmed anyone (as far as we know). The primary person hurt by his misguided ideas about romance is he himself. If we did have information that he was intentionally attempting to hurt women, or that he had stalked someone, then any sympathy I feel would get extinguished pretty fast. Stalking is indeed outside my conceptualization of "nice" (and outside my schema of how self-identified "nice guys" behave).
Your experience leads you to sympathize with him, and (from my perspective) to rationalize away the parts of his rant that are aggressive and threatening. My experience leads me to view him very unsympathetically, and (from your perspective) to zero in on the parts of his rant that sound the worst, and blow them out of proportion.
I appreciate your summary.
I don't know what to tell you except that I and many other women have observed that stalkers, misogynists, and other not-truly-nice-at-all guys often use the "women only date jerks!" line to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their own romantic failures, and to justify their continuing resentment and anger toward women in general.
I have no trouble agreeing with you on this point. The question on my mind from the start of our discussion is about the proportion of these not-truly-nice-at-all guys relative to the larger population of self-identified "nice guys." If that proportion is low, then we should be less worried that the "nice guy" in the rant actually holds stable misogynistic attitudes.
We use the "Nice Guys(TM)" label to refer to this phenomenon, not to play "gotcha" against reasonable & sympathetic dudes.
The problem is that those phenomena are not always correctly demarcated. My worry is that reasonable and sympathetic dudes may make certain complaints that sound similar to complaints of genuine misogynists (e.g. "nice guys finish last"), leading certain feminists to fail to recognize them as reasonable and sympathetic, and instead classify them as "Nice Guys(TM)."
I hope you will update your beliefs to assign a greater probability to the notion that when women talk about the Nice Guys(TM) concept that we are reporting honestly on our own experiences, as opposed to simply looking for ways to score rhetorical points off innocent men.
I already believe that that when women talk about the Nice Guys(TM) concept that we are reporting honestly on their own experiences. The question is how representative those negative experiences are of self-identified "nice guys."
If I hear more women complaining of being mistreated by self-identified "nice guys," then I will update to higher estimates of malfeasance on the part of guys with that identification. At this time, however, I will maintain that, the base rate of men who self-identify as "nice guys" and who believe that women go for less-nice guys is just so high that it dwarfs the subset of those guys who also mistreat women. Here are some of the reasons why I believe that (or why I believe that I believe that), other than my own experiences:
Herold & Milhausen found that 56% of women in their sample believed that "nice guys finish last" sexually. If those women can hold that belief without being misogynists, then so can men.
Herold & Milhausen had a qualitative component of their study, where they asked women to explain their choice for or against "nice guys." Some women had positive views of "nice guys," and some had negative views:
Within the nice guy category, a dichotomy of two stereot ypical personalities emerged from the comments, with the women perceiving the nice guys as either losers or good guys. The losers were seen as needy, weak, predictable, boring, inexperienced, and unattractive. One woman stated, ‘‘Nice guys often don’t provide the drama and adventure women think they want.’’ The good guys, on the other hand, were seen as having such positive traits as good personality, high standards and morals, and politeness. [...] The nice guys and bad boys were also seen as differing in their styles of interact ing with women. The nice guys were considered to be far more passive with ‘‘losers’’ depicted as lacking confidence and unsure of themselves and good guys depicted as willing to wait for sex because they cared about their partners and treated them with respect. The women explained that nice guys had fewer partners because they were less forward in their interactions with women. One stated, ‘‘To me, ‘nice guys’ aren’t as persistent or aggressive and don’t use sleazy tactics to add another notch to their bedposts.’’
As you can see, perspectives varied, but Herold and Milhausen don't report that any of the women in their study were mistreated by "nice guys." There are no complaints of unethical behavior by "nice guys," no complaints of stalking, misogyny, or entitlement. The only ethical complaints are about "bad boys."
From here:
Dating women as a man was a lesson in female power, and it made me, of all things, into a momentary misogynist, which I suppose was the best indicator that my experiment had worked. I saw my own sex from the other side, and I disliked women irrationally for a while because of it. I disliked their superiority, their accusatory smiles, their entitlement to choose or dash me with a fingertip, an execution so lazy, so effortless, it made the defeats and even the successes unbearably humiliating. Typical male power feels by comparison like a blunt instrument, its salvos and field strategies laughably remedial next to the damage a woman can do with a single cutting word: no
From here:
Vincent said the dates were rarely fun and that the pressure of "Ned" having to prove himself was grueling. She was surprised that many women had no interest in a soft, vulnerable man. "My prejudice was that the ideal man is a woman in a man's body. And I learned, no, that's really not. There are a lot of women out there who really want a manly man, and they want his stoicism," she said. If we see men ranting, it could well be the same sort of momentary misogyny that Vincent contracted from dating straight women. Vincent's experiences also convinced her to update her estimate of the amount of traditional masculinity that other women desire.
In her chapter of feminist anthology Yes Means Yes, Julia Serano describes her experiences with women while she was male-bodied:
Just as women are expected to fulfill the stereotype of being sexual objects in order to gain male attention, men are expected to fulfill the sexual aggressor stereotype in order to gain female attention. In other words, they have to act like "assholes." Granted, this isn't true in all situations. For example, in the progressive artsy, and/or queer circles I inhabit nowdays, men who act like "assholes" don't get very far. But in the heterosexual mainstream culture, men who unapologetically act like "assholes" tend to thrive. [...] During my college years, I watched a number of "nice guys" transform into "assholes." And when they did, women suddenly became interested in them. [...] …many men become sexual aggressors primarily, if not solely, to attract the attention of women. In fact, if heterosexual women suddenly decided en masse that ‘nice guys’ are far sexier than ‘assholes’, it would create a huge shift in the predator/prey dynamic.
Based on the Herold & Milhausen study, the "Nice Guys(TM)" discussed in the feminist blogosphere seems relatively rare. If 56% of women, Vincent, and Serano can hold certain views of women's preferences that aren't kind to "nice guys" without being misogynists, then so can men. P( "nice guy" genuinely mistreats women | he believes that "nice guys finish last" ) has got to be pretty low.
The relative rareness of self-identified "nice guys" who mistreat women (or men who believe that "nice guys finish last" and who also mistreat women) doesn't make that phenomenon unimportant. This phenomenon is interesting, not because it is typical of self-identified "nice guys," but because it is atypical, and we shouldn't miss the exceptions just because of the rule.
The question on my mind from the start of our discussion is about the proportion of these not-truly-nice-at-all guys relative to the larger population of self-identified "nice guys."
Okay, so we're arguing over percentages--but I perceive guys like the nice-guy letter writer to be ginormous assholes, where as you view him as reasonable and sympathetic. So my population of jerks is obviously larger, because we define "jerk" differently.
In my personal experience, probably about 80 percent of guys who will express to me the sentiment &qu...
It seems there's some interest in PUA and attraction at Less Wrong. Would that subject be appropriate for a front-page post? I've drafted the opening of what I had in mind, below. Let me know what you think, and whether I should write the full post.
Also, I've done lots of collaborative writing before, with much success (two examples). I would welcome input from or collaboration with others who have some experience and skill in the attraction arts. If you're one of those people, send me a message! Even if you just want to comment on early drafts or contribute a few thoughts.
I should probably clarify my concept of attraction and seduction. The founders of "pickup" basically saw it as advice on "how to trick women into bed", but I see it as a series of methods for "How to become the best man you can be, which will help you succeed in all areas of life, and also make you attractive to women." Ross Jeffries used neuro-linguistic programming and hypnosis, and Mystery literally used magic tricks to get women to sleep with him. My own sympathies lie with methods advocated by groups like Art of Charm, who focus less on tricks and routines and more on holistic self-improvement.
...
...
EDIT: That didn't take long. Though I share much of PhilGoetz's attitude, I've decided I will not write this post, for the reasons articulated here, here, here and here.
...
Here was the proposed post...
...
When I interviewed to be a contestant on VH1's The Pick-Up Artist, they asked me to list my skills. Among them, I listed "rational thinking."
"How do you think rational thinking will help you with the skills of attraction?" they asked.
I paused, then answered: "Rational thinking tells me that attraction is a thoroughly non-rational process."
A major theme at Less Wrong is "How to win at life with rationality." Today, I want to talk about how to win in your sex life with rationality.a
I didn't get the part on the VH1 show, but no matter: studying and practicing pick-up has transformed my life more than almost anything else, even though getting excellent and frequent sex is, oddly enough, not one of my life's priorities. Nor is finding a soulmate.
If you want lots of sex, or a soulmate, or you want to improve your current relationship, then attraction skills will help with that. Loneliness need not be one of the costs of rationality. But even if you don't want any of those things, studying attraction methods can (1) clear up confusion and frustration about the opposite sex,b (2) improve your social relations in general, (3) boost your confidence, and thus (4) help you succeed in almost every part of your life.
This is a post about what men can do to build attraction in women.c I will not discuss whether these methods are moral. I will not discuss whether these methods are more or less "manipulative" than the standard female methods for attracting men. Instead, I will focus on factual claims about what tends to create sexual attraction in women.
This is also a post for rationalists. More specifically, it is aimed at the average Less Wrong reader: a 20-34 year old, high-IQ, single male atheist.
I will also be assuming the stereotype that many passionate rationalists of our type could benefit from advice on body language, voice tone, social skills, and attire - a stereotype that has some merit. Even if you don't need such advice, many others will benefit from it. I did.
As is my style, I'll begin with a survey of the scientific data on the subject.
Self-help methods in general have not received enough attention from experimental researchers, and attraction methods have fared even worse. That may be what drove the leaders of the pickup community to run thousands of real-life experiments, systematically varying their attire, body language, and speech to measure what worked and what didn't. The dearth of research on the subject turned ordinary men into amateur seduction scientists, albeit without much training.
Still, we can learn some things about sexual attraction from established science.
[full post to be continued here]
a I've also given two humorous speeches on this subject: How to Seduce Women with Body Language and How to Seduce Women with Vocal Tonality.
b I used to be one of those poor guys who complained that "Girls say they want nice guys, but they only go out with jerks!" Merely reading enough evolutionary psychology to understand why women often date "jerks" was enough, in my case, to relieve a lot of confusion and frustration. Even without developing attraction skills, mere understanding can, I think, relieve serious stress and worries about one's manly (fragile) ego.
c Sorry, I don't know much about homosexual attraction, and I'll leave the subject of how women can attract better men to other authors.