Many thanks for sharing your reflections. I found them very valuable for me and agree with most of them fully or mostly, while you are much closer to LLM foundational model developments than I am, so this is just a humble feeling on my side (I am intensive user in data space and understanding things and society/policy/economy developments, since early 2022, and we plan to integrated LLMs into a SAAS we want to develop). Then, I was actually surprised to read you were active in the 80s already (what makes you even older than me, being from 1968 😉).
Anyway, I wanted to share some reflections back with you (inserted after the numbers from from your text - it didn't want to keep the quotations due to form reformatting of what I pasted in, my apologies) about some aspects, where I have some ideas around the Sample-Efficient Learning (mostly, and a bit on other points). If you find them useful, please use them; I would also be happy about your feedback:
Sample-Efficient Learning
on 10. and 11.
Marc: I think, it is a contributor: filtering out fluff, but intelligence is also/more combining and transferring things we learned in comprehensive and complex ways
12.
Marc: possibly, largely (with the filtering and during-intake-interpretation&classifying being a key part, I think).
13 and 14.
Marc: this fits to my interpretation above: GPUs see all pixels, but they don’t interpret/filter the pattern but store it all and the pattern emerges (very inefficiently) from the the amount of pixel “bags”
15.
Marc: That is not the same, of course. It can though obviously compensate for a lot, same as thinking does very effectively and also rather efficiently, but hallucinations and easily losing context/track (more than smart humans would) appears the inherent price to pay.
16.
Marc: In my experience humans can do this; I have worked across domains and found this to be true for me.
18.
Marc: This fits to my above interpretation: many more facts/data, but not explicitly filtered/interpreted&classified during ingestion.
19.
Marc: I think that context pollution from inner reflection and context window size, and getting then lost in complexity: too many different sub-contexts that are mixed up in a single “thinking”, where each wrong turn derails the who effort, due to lack of de-pollution measures and lack of retro-inspection from outside the active context window - at least what I understand how this is currently done, while this could even rather easily be changed! I’d wish I had moved to work I the AI field as developer - I feel like this fits to my way of thinking and problems to solve.
30.
Marc: I would have some ideas how to improve this situation in LLMs – the tricks I am aware of now are arguably unsuitable (here humans are indeed better, but I think something similar can be achieved, even with a mix of LLM&ML).
36.
Marc: Indeed. There are even more reasons, why this graphic does not tell us much, really (yes, I should name them (maybe CAPEX/OPEX ratios, available cash for invest, narrowness of topic, scale of economic expectations, who finances etc.), but you already named several so that should suffice). But putting things in perspective is always compelling (including clearly to me - even if only to realising that another perspectives would be needed.)
Another thought: I think AGI and ASI is not defined/understood as it should be - this is currently overly anthropocentric - but why?
Note: No LLM was abused or at least used in writing this feedback 😉
Amidst the unrelenting tumult of AI news, it’s easy to lose track of the bigger picture. Here are some ideas that have been developing quietly in the back of my head, about the path from here to AGI.
I mean, I have thoughts. I talk about missing functions like “memory” and “continuous learning”, and possibly “judgement” and “insight”. But these are all debatable; for instance, ChatGPT has a form of memory. The honest answer is: I dunno what’s missing, but something is, because there are a lot of things AI still can’t do. Even if it’s getting harder and harder to articulate exactly what those things are.
(OK, I lied: GPT-5 didn’t lead me to change any of my previously written points, but it did prompt me to add this one.)
The latter cases, with no aha moment, are disconcerting. Lacking a specific moment when the difficulty was overcome, I find myself questioning whether I have in fact overcome it. I worry that I’ve missed something important – that I’ve built something in the my workshop that will never fit out the door, or an airplane that’s too heavy to fly. Sometimes this does in fact turn out to be the case; other times everything is fine.
Will the journey from here to AGI feature “aha” moments? Or will it be a long slow grind, and when we get to the end and look back to see what the key insights were, we won’t be able to find any?
Back in the 80s and 90s, I used to attend SIGGRAPH, the annual computer graphics conference. The highlight of the week was always the film show, a two-hour showcase demonstrating the latest techniques. It was a mix of academic work and special-effects clips from unreleased Hollywood movies.
Every year, the videos would include some important component that had been missing the year before. Shadows! Diffuse lighting! Interaction of light with texture! I’d gaze upon the adventurer bathed in flickering torchlight, and marvel at how real it looked. Then the next year I’d laugh at how cartoonish that adventurer’s hair had been, after watching a new algorithm that simulated the way hair flows when people move.
I think AI is a little like that: we’re so (legitimately!) impressed by each new model that we can’t see what it lacks… until an even-better model comes along. As I said when I first started blogging about AI: as we progress toward an answer to the question “can a machine be intelligent?”, we are learning as much about the question as we are about the answer.
(Case in point: in the press briefing for the GPT-5 launch, Sam Altman said that we’ll have AGI when AIs get continuous learning. I’ve never heard him point to that particular gap before.)
With that in mind: evolution would laugh if it saw how crude our algorithms are for training neural networks.
I don’t know how many carefully optimized decisions are incorporated into the design of current LLMs[2], but I doubt it comes to hundreds of millions. This is why I believe current AI designs are very crude.
Sample-Efficient Learning
(This suggests that sample-efficient learning is one of the things evolution optimized us for.)
Here are some examples of sample efficiency in humans: learning to drive a car in a few dozen hours. Figuring out the rule in an ARC-AGI task from just a couple of examples. Learning the ropes at a new job. Sussing out the key trick to solve a difficult mathematical problem. Are these all basically the same skill?
But if this were true, you’d think they’d be able to handle ARC-AGI puzzles (see the example image just above)[3]. Maybe they’re only good at picking up ideas from an example, if they’d already learned that idea during their original training? In other words, maybe in-context learning is helpful at jogging their memory, but not for teaching new concepts.
Crystallized and Fluid Intelligence
AIs have been demonstrating what arguably constitutes superhuman performance on FrontierMath, a set of extremely difficult mathematical problems. But they mostly seem to do it “the wrong way”: instead of finding elegant solutions, they either rely on knowledge of some obscure theorem that happens to make the problem much easier, or grind out a lengthy brute-force answer.
Does this matter? I mean, if you get the answer, then you get the answer. But in mathematics, much of the value in finding a proof is the insights you acquired along the way. If AIs begin knocking off unsolved problems in mathematics, but in ways that don’t provide insight, perhaps we’ll still need mathematicians to do the real work of advancing the overall field. Or maybe, once AIs can solve these problems at all, it’ll be a short step to solving them with insight? My instinct is that it’s not a short step, but that could be cope. In any case, the big question is what this tells us about AI’s potential in applications other than mathematics. What portion of human activity requires real insight?
(Taren points out the irony that while LLMs know far more facts than people, they also routinely get facts wrong – “hallucinations”.)
The best public estimate is that GPT-4 has 1.8 trillion “parameters”, meaning that its neural network has that many connections. In the two and a half years since it was released, it’s not clear that any larger models have been deployed (GPT-4.5 and Grok 3 might be somewhat larger).
The human brain is far more complex than this; the most common estimate is 100 trillion connections, and each connection is probably considerably more complex than the connections in current neural networks. In other words, the brain has far more information storage capacity than any current artificial neural network.
Which leads to the question: how the hell do LLMs manage to learn and remember so many more raw facts than a person[4]?
One possible answer: perhaps models learn things in a shallower way, that allows for more compact representations but limits their ability to apply things they’ve learned in creative, insightful, novel ways. Perhaps this also has something to do with their poor sample efficiency.
Solving Large Problems
When projecting the future of AI, many people look at this graph:
It shows that the size of software engineering tasks an AI can complete has been roughly doubling every 7 months. This trend has held for over 5 years (arguably[5]), during which the achievable task size increased from around 3 seconds to around 2 hours. Why should the trend be so steady?
It’s not obvious that the difficulty that AI will have in completing a task should increase steadily with the size of the task. If a robot could assemble 10 Ikea bookshelves, it could assemble 20 bookshelves. If a coding agent can create a form with 10 fields, it can probably create a form with 20 fields. Why is it that if an AI can complete a 10-minute project, it still may not be able to complete a 20-minute project? And why does the relationship between time and difficulty hold steady across such a wide range of times?
I think the predictable(-ish) trend of AIs tackling larger and larger software engineering tasks has something to do with large tasks containing a fractal distribution of subtasks. There is a fuzzy collection of tactical and strategic skills involved, ranging from “write a single line of code” to “design a high-level architecture that breaks up a one-month project into smaller components that will work well together”. Larger tasks require high-level skills that are more difficult for AIs (and people) to master, but every task requires a mix of skills, tasks of the same size can involve different mixes (building one fancy model airplane vs. 20 bookshelves), and the fuzzy overlaps smooth out the graph.
I don’t share this intuition. I’d expect increases in task length to keep upping the difficulty, even when the base line task length is already large. For instance, if I’m approaching a 2-month project, perhaps I should start out by spending a couple of weeks prototyping several different approaches, or taking an online course to learn a new programming technique. Those are high-level ideas that might not make sense if I only have one month.
Heck, maybe we should expect 1 month → 2 months to be a bigger leap than 1 minute → 2 minutes: the former is an increase of one month, the latter is an increase of only one minute! I wouldn’t actually expect successive doublings to get more difficult, but it’s not obvious to me why we should expect them to get easier, either.
This is feasible under current conditions, when models are mostly handling tasks that take a few seconds to a few minutes to carry out. What happens when we’re trying to train models to independently manage month-long projects? One bit of learning per month is a slow way to make progress. Perhaps sample-efficient learning becomes more important as you attempt longer tasks.
For instance, when I tackle a subtask during a large software project, the result is not just that a certain chunk of the code gets written. I come out with a slightly deeper understanding of the problem. I may have learned new things about the existing codebase. I may have hit upon a handy trick for testing the kinds of operations that this code performs, or had an insight about the data being processed. I may have gotten some little nudge that will eventually accumulate with 20 other nudges across other portions of the project, eventually leading me to rethink my entire approach. If the subtask is assigned to a separate agent, whose memories are discarded as soon as the subtask is complete, none of that learning can take place.
Continuous Learning
Continuous learning seems related to sample-efficient learning. Cutting-edge models today are trained on tens of trillions of “tokens” (roughly meaning, words). This is astronomically more data than a person might encounter over the course of a project. So to learn new things on the fly, you need to be sample-efficient.
Everything that current models do, they do in their first hour on the job.
It’s been proposed that LLMs can rely on their “context window” – the transcript of everything you’ve said to them, everything they’ve said to you, and their own internal monologue as they work through the task – as a substitute for continuous learning. I have trouble accepting that this will scale up to large projects. Current LLM architectures make it very expensive to keep increasing the context window, and this seems like a fundamental barrier. People are able to fluidly “wake up”, “put to sleep”, consolidate, and otherwise manage sections of our memory according to need, and today’s LLMs cannot.
Phase Changes as We Get Closer to AGI
When AIs start to do most of the higher-level work, workplace dynamics will change in hard-to-anticipate ways. Futurists like to point out that AIs can run 24 hours a day, never get bored, can be cloned or discarded, and do many things much faster than people. So long as people are the glue that holds the AI workers together, all this is of limited consequence. When the AIs take center stage, all of those AI advantages will come into play, and the result will be something strange.
Think about a long vacation when you really unplugged – not in December when nothing was happening, but during a busy period. Think about how much catching up you had to do afterwards. Now imagine if every single morning, you discover that you have that much catching up to do, because the AI team you’re attempting to supervise has done the equivalent of two weeks of work while you slept. You’ll no longer be a central participant in your own job; it’ll be all you can do to follow the action and provide occasional nudges.
The transition from AI-as-a-tool to people-are-mostly-spectators could happen fairly quickly, like a phase change in physics.
This may be related to the recent phenomenon where for some people, extended interactions with a chatbot, over the course of weeks or months, appear to be exacerbating mental health issues. The common theme is that when machines transition from bit parts to leading roles, unexpected things happen.
(Those unexpected things don’t have to be bad! But until AIs get better at managing the big picture, and/or people learn a lot more about the dynamics of AI-powered processes, the surprises will probably be bad more often than not.)
We score an AI’s output on a benchmark problem as “correct” or “incorrect”. In real life, each task is part of a complex web of ongoing processes. Subtle details of how the task is performed can affect how those processes play out over time. Consider software development, and imagine that an AI writes a piece of code that produces the desired outputs. This code might be “correct”, but is it needlessly verbose? Does it replicate functionality that exists elsewhere in the codebase? Does it introduce unnecessary complications?
Over time, a codebase maintained mostly by AI might become a bloated mess of conflicting styles, redundant code, poor design decisions, and subtle bugs. Conversely, the untiring nature of AI may lead to codebases that are inhumanly well-maintained, every piece of code thoroughly tested, every piece of documentation up to date. Just as it was hard to guess that extended conversations could lead early chatbots into deranged behavior, it is hard to guess what will result from giving a coding agent extended responsibility for a codebase. Similarly, it is hard to guess what will result from putting an AI in charge of the long-term course of a scientific research project, or a child’s education.
Other Thoughts
I find this argument compelling up to a point, but I suspect we may incorrectly attribute the impact of great scientists to brilliance alone. Einstein contributed multiple profound insights to physics, but he did that at a time of opportunity – there was enough experimental data to motivate and test those insights, but that data was new enough that no one else had found them yet[6]. Edison’s labs originated or commercialized numerous inventions, but his earlier successes provided him with the resources to vigorously pursue further lines of research, and the opportunity to bring his further inventions to market.
Steve Jobs’ accomplishments owed much to his ability to attract talented employees. Great leaders achieve success in part by edging out other leaders to rise to the top of an organization. If AI allows us to create a million geniuses, we won’t be able to give them all the same opportunities that (some of) today’s geniuses are afforded.
In the two and a half years since GPT-4 launched, frontier developers have continued to increase the amount of data used to train their models, but model sizes are no longer increasing; many subsequent cutting-edge models seem to be smaller than GPT-4. This has been interpreted as a sign that the benefits to scaling may have stalled out. However, it might simply be that no one would have much use for a larger model right now, even if it was more intelligent. All of the leading edge AI providers (with the possible exception of Google?) are clearly capacity constrained – they already can’t offer all of their goodies to everyone who would like to use them. Larger models would make this much worse, both increasing demand (presumably, if models were smarter, people would use them more) and reducing supply.
We might not see much progress toward larger models until we’ve built enough data centers to saturate demand. Given how much room there is for AI to diffuse into further corners of our personal and work lives, that could be quite a while.
Everyone is sharing this graph, which compares the level of investment in railroads in the 1880s, telecommunications infrastructure during the dot-com bubble, and AI data centers today:
The usual takeaway is: wow, the AI boom (or bubble) is bigger than the dot-com bubble. I don’t understand why people aren’t focusing more on the fact that railroad investments peaked at three times the dot-com boom and AI datacenter rollout put together. Holy shit, the 1880s must have been absolutely insane. The people of that time must have really believed the world was changing, to be willing to sustain that level of investment. (I’ve seen arguments that the pace of change in the late 1800s and early 1900s made our current era seem positively static. Steam power, electricity, railroads, the telegraph, telephones, radio, etc. This graph makes that a bit more visceral.)
(I also wonder whether these numbers may turn out to be wrong. There’s at least one obvious error – the dot-com boom took place around 2000, not 2020. Some commentator noted that older GDP figures may be misleading because the informal economy used to play a much larger role. When a startling statistic spreads like wildfire across the Internet, it often turns out to be incorrect.)
Quick reminder that the regular application deadline for The Curve is next Friday, August 22nd! In case you missed it: on October 3-5, in Berkeley, we’ll bring together ~250 folks with a wide range of backgrounds and perspectives for productive discussions on the big, contentious questions in AI. Featuring Jack Clark, Jason Kwon, Randi Weingarten, Dean Ball, Helen Toner, and many more great speakers! If you’d like to join us, fill out this form.
Thanks to Taren for feedback and images.
This quote is from a restatement of the paradox by Steven Pinker. Moravec’s original statement, in 1988:
Large Language Models, such as GPT.
Yes, the some models can now post high scores on the original ARC-AGI-1 test, but they still struggle with ARC-AGI-2 and ARC-AGI-3. Also, yes, it seems likely that one reason models struggle on ARC-AGI problems is that they don’t have much experience looking at pixelated images. But I still stand by the observation that models seem to only be selectively skilled at in-context learning.
I asked ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini to compare the number of “facts” known by a typical adult to a frontier LLM. They all estimated a few million for people, and a few billion for LLMs. To arrive at those estimates, they engaged in handwaving so vigorous as to affect the local weather, so take with a grain of salt. (ChatGPT transcript, Claude transcript, Gemini transcript)
The data does suggest that the rate of progress has accelerated recently, perhaps to a 4 month doubling time, but this is debated and there isn’t enough data to be confident in either direction.
Though some of the relevant data had been available for several decades.