Aella

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Frame Control

Yeah, great point. I think my frame control post is overly simplified and not 100% representative of my full worldview, because I don't have the energy or skill required to put "actually everything is just narrative tho" in there and still maintain my point. 

As far as I have the capacity to understand about myself, the 'reclaiming' post was true. It happened seven years ago now, and I still haven't had the issues come back I did prior to that reclaiming moment, and I've had no further detection of unhonored or ignored pain. 

But uhhh I'm not sure if I have the clarity right now to stab further at my intuitions around this. I've got a blog post brewing specifically in response to your sort of question and I suspect it'll take a while before it's ready. But I simultaneously want to burn frame control with fire, and also believe it's not inherently bad. Or something. 

Frame Control

I stand by the thing I was trying to communicate in point 1, though I might have communicated poorly. I have met many people who are well established, very smart, who are not socially submissive, who still make the little moves that demonstrate vulnerability. I think Eliezer does this, for example.

Frame Control

To try to parse for me here, what I took away from each point:

1. "Where are the concrete claims that allow people to directly check"
2. Discomfort mixing claims about frame control with claims about Geoff, as lots of bad claims or beliefs can get sneaked in through the former while talking about the latter
3. I had a lot of trouble parsing this one, particularly the paragraph starting with "Uncharitable paraphrase/caricature:". I'm gathering something like "unease that I am making arguments that override normal good truth-seeking behavior, with the end goal being elevating my [aella's] ability to be a discerner about things"

So re: one, this... seems true. I would prefer a version of this with concrete claims that allow people to directly check, and am interested in help generating this. I am driven by the belief that there is something - there seems to be a clear pattern of 'what is my reality' I've seen in me and multiple other people close to me, and there's something that causes it. That's about as concrete as I have the capacity to get. To me, the whole thing seems elusive by nature, and I had an option of "write vaguely about an elusive thing" or "not write about it at all." 

For the second point, I think I agree with your words but there's something in me that... disagrees with the vibe? Or something? I'm not sure. And for what it's worth, I've been brewing on this topic for many years, and made a few serious attempts to write it out well before the whole Leverage thing. Geoff feels kind of incidental to me. Maybe I am wondering if you perceive this as more central-to-Leverage than I perceive it.

But to understand better: if I'd posted a version of this with fully anonymous examples, nothing specifically traceable to Leverage, would that have felt good to you, or would something in it still feel weird?

Third, I'm not sure I understand due to parsing problems, but... I think I have uneasiness about it too? I had discussions with a few people before posting this and expressed things that sounded similar to what I imagine you're trying to point at. I'm worried the concept is too fuzzy to be used judiciously, or that the self-protective mechanisms required to identify and react to frame control are very close to poison. I don't know what to do about this exactly; I have another blog post brewing I'm hoping might help. But I think I believe frame control is dangerous enough that it's worth 'throw maybe dangerous defenses out there in response'. I am very interested in figuring out how to hone those defenses so they don't backfire.
 

Frame Control

I'm slightly confused, because (unless I'm missing one) only one of my examples given was in reference to the live conflict. Unless maybe you mean the generalized timing of the post as a whole, or the other examples given for other events/people unrelated to the community but still ongoing? I am probably not down to post another two separate posts, as writing this was a lot of effort, and I'd probably feel sad if someone else did it for me. Would it just make more sense for me to unlink or remove the one example?

Frame Control

I like the rule, and if it's possible to come up with engagement guidelines that have asymmetrical results for frame control I would really like that. I couldn't think of any clear, overarching while writing this post, but will continue to think about this.

And you're right in that the concept of frame control will get inevitably weaponized. I am afraid of this happening as a result of my post, and I'm not really sure how to handle that.

Frame Control

Ahhh these are fantastic examples that clearly map onto frame controllers I know and I didn't think of it when writing this post; really great points.

Frame Control

I think there's a difference here I didn't really touch upon in the post; I think it's possible for someone to clearly know a lot more than you, but still make their moves salient. For example; I know two men who are friends, both high status, have 'followers', are very smart, and hold extremely similar beliefs. One is the one I mentioned who I had a long talk with, and I consider him to have been doing frame control. The other similarly advocated for his own beliefs, wasn't open to mine, but his frame was much more salient; he was clear about his moves, and didn't feel like he was implicitly asking me to submit to him, or something?

Or they can make clear moves to equalize; I know many people with far more expertise than I do who do very subtle social moves constantly to hand power and respect back to me, somehow without pretending that they don't know more than I do. I'm thinking of this one guy I respect a lot who is a teacher and coach and has a podcast, and he has way more experience and wisdom than me. I had lunch with him once and walked away with the sense that he had just... handed me his heart? Somehow he seemed to be actively imbuing me with power and surrendering himself before me, and at no point did it feel like he was attempting to conceal his own abilities or self-efface to make me comfortable. It was incredible.

Zoe Curzi's Experience with Leverage Research

Here's anonymous submission of Leverage's Basic Information Acknowledgement Checklist document. The submitter said "The text of this document has been copied word for word from the original, except with names redacted."

https://we.tl/t-KaDXP3vrW3

My experience at and around MIRI and CFAR (inspired by Zoe Curzi's writeup of experiences at Leverage)

I don't have an object-level opinion formed on this yet, but want to +1 this as more of the kind of description I find interesting, and isn't subject to the same critiques I had with the original post.

My experience at and around MIRI and CFAR (inspired by Zoe Curzi's writeup of experiences at Leverage)

as a tiny, mostly-uninformed data point, i read "if you realized how bad taxation is for the economy, you'd never stop screaming" to have a very diff vibe from Eliezer's tweet, cause he didn't use the word bad. I know it's a small diff but it hits diff. Something in his tweet was amusing because it felt like it was pointing to a presumably neutral thing and making it scary? whereas saying the same thing about a clearly moralistic point seems like it's doing a different thing. 

Again - a very minor point here, just wanted to throw it in.

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