Aleksi Pietikäinen
23
4
Aleksi Pietikäinen has not written any posts yet.
Aleksi Pietikäinen has not written any posts yet.
I think your feelings stem from you considering it to be enough If AS simply beats human players while APM whiners would like AS to learn all the aspect of Starcraft skill it can reasonably be expected to learn.
The agents on ladder don't scout much and can't react accordingly. They don't tech switch midgame and some of them get utterly confused in ways a human wouldn't. Game 11 agent vs MaNa couldn't figure out it could build 1 phoenix to kill the warp prism and chose to follow it with 3 oracles (units which cant shoot at flying units). The ladder agents display similar mistakes.
Considering how many millions of dollars AS has cost already (could be hundreds at this point) these holes are simply too big to call the agents robust or the project complete and Starcraft conquered.
If they somehow could manage to pull off ASZero which humans can't reliably abuse I'd admit they've done all there is to do. Then they could declared victory.
Sorry I worded that really poorly. Dumb and fast was a comment about relatively high-level human play. It is context dependend and as you said, the trade off is very hard to measure. It probably flips back and forth quite a bit if we'd slowly increase both and actually attempt to graph it. Point is, If we look at the early game, where both players have similar armies, unlimited athleticism quickly becomes unbeatable even with only moderate intelligence behind it.
The thing about measuring athleticism or intelligence separately is that we can measure athleticism of a machine but not of a human. When a human plays sc2 it's never about purely executing a
I don't think this was unexpected at all. As soon as Deepmind announced their Starcraft project, most of the discussion was about proper mechanical limitations since the real-time-aspect of RTS games favors mechanical execution so heavily. Being dumb and fast is simply more effective than smart and slow.
The skills that make a good human Stracraft player can broadly be divided into two categories: athleticism and intelligence. Much of the strategy in the game is build around the fact that players are playing with limited resources of athleticism (i.e. speed and accuracy) so it follows that you can't necessarily separate the two skill categories and only measure one of them.
The issue with the presentation was that not only did Deepmind not highlight the problematic nature of assessing the intelligence of their algorithm, they actively downplayed it. In my opinion, the pr spin was blatantly obvious and the community backlash warranted and justified.
This is not true. In Starcraft Broodwar there are lot's of bugs that players take advantage of but such bugs don't exist in Starcraft 2.
I think it's much more important to restrict the AI mechanically so that it has to succeed strategically that to have a fair fight. The whole conversation about fairness is misguided anyway. The point of APM limiter is to remove confounding factors and increase validity of our measurement, not to increase fairness.