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Alister Munday
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The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
[+]Alister Munday7mo-5-7
The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
[+]Alister Munday7mo-9-6
The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
[+]Alister Munday7mo-9-6
The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
Alister Munday7mo-30

Actually, Collatz DOES require working under these constraints if staying in arithmetic. The conjecture itself needs universal quantification ("for ALL numbers...") to even state it. In pure arithmetic we can only verify specific cases: "4 goes to 2", "5 goes to 16 to 8 to 4 to 2", etc.

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The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
[+]Alister Munday7mo-6-6
The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
Alister Munday7mo00

The proof requires:

  1. The concept of rational numbers (not just natural numbers)
  2. Proof by contradiction (logical structure above arithmetic)
  3. Divisibility properties beyond basic operations

We can only use counting and basic operations (+,-,×,÷) in pure arithmetic. Any examples that stay within those bounds?

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The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
Alister Munday7mo-10

I am looking for a counter example - one that doesn't go above the arithmetic level for both system and level of proof - can you name any?

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The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
[+]Alister Munday7mo-6-7
The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
[+]Alister Munday7mo-5-7
The Fundamental Circularity Theorem: Why Some Mathematical Behaviours Are Inherently Unprovable
Alister Munday7mo10

While you're correct that arithmetic operations can be derived recursively from succession, the paper's core insight isn't about formal derivability. Rather, it suggests some mathematical behaviors are "irreducible" - they arise directly from how properties interact rather than from deeper patterns waiting to be discovered. This may explain why certain simple-looking conjectures resist proof: we're seeking deeper explanations when the behaviour itself IS the fundamental interaction.

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-41The Self-Reference Trap in Mathematics
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-11The Fundamental Circularity Theorem: Why Some Mathematical Behaviours Are Inherently Unprovable
8mo
2