Hello there,

I chose Caerulea-Lawrence as my nickname as I like birds, the color cerulean and I have an affinity with the name Lawrence. 

My most important person in life is my partner. I met her years back, and it has been, and still is, a true before and after. 

At the moment, except from introspecting, trying to increase the communication between the cognitive functions in myself, and between me and my partners', my biggest wish is to find people that can hold the kind of depth, sincerity, intensity and complexity that we hold with each other.

If you are okay with questioning absolutely everything, and to follow the thread wherever it leads, even when that might lead to a direct conflict with senses, experiences and even with the Universe itself (Spoiler, it already does), why don't you say hello. 

There are so many things that simply need others to be able to hold, as they are either too painful or incomplete as individuals, or even as a pair. 

We have what seems to be extremely high standards for ourselves and others, that I many times wonder if we will simply travel through this lifetime alone, our longing slowly festering into some kind of social mask we will either choose to have on, or decide to not give a fuck anymore and just be increasingly weird and eccentric. We have intuitions on what we are looking for, but more and more we wonder if we should just be happy with what we have.

We wish to delve, what seems to be, far too deep into dualities, complexities and the depths of our minds/souls. Even behind and into all the nitty gritty dark spiderwebs of ourselves that people hide, without neglecting acknowledging our weaknesses, limitations and faults. The inconsistencies, the hatred, the anger, the sorrow, listfulness, dejectedness, and the intensity and complexity of these emotions and the values that drive them. Not to mention forces that we don't understand, that we simply call chaos and fate. (Not acronyms, but those are inside words). 
We are also not vibrantly healthy, and our life-stories are a painful mess that wouldn't be a series you would come unscathed out of watching.

Our good qualities are that since we go so deep, and turn every stone, are highly sensitive, introspective and reflective feelers/thinkers, any potential new friendship with someone else, will be as close, intimate and committed as we can imagine. 

To specify, what we are looking for isn't simple harmony, deep friendship for life, people to live on a farm and have permaculture with. What we want goes beyond that, beyond life and death. Delving into the "spiritual/metaphysical" with as serious a mind and steady a hand as any worthwhile pursuit, with people that we can trust as much as we trust ourselves. 
A group of people that, if we so agree, would decide to leave life, earth and this universe behind, to go on a journey somewhere we would prefer to reside. A group of people, or 'souls', if given the choice, you would choose over any and every possible thing imaginable you can have in this Universe. 
The group of people that could help contain and help look at whatever truths that inevitably will stab us in the face as we pool our efforts and wills together.
The kind of people that you can trust because your goals and visions align now, but also because they include future growth, change and evolution - So I guess it is better to say people that have a similar growth rate as us.

I do, from the bottom of my heart, hope to meet someone, someone we at this point is guessing is another couple/pair of people or small group of some kind. 
Other limitations we have are that we can't imagine moving very far. And yes, we aren't vegan or anything.

If you are still with me, we deep-dive into childhood/past lives structures on the daily, and there is a lot of trauma we simply work around. Life is a lot of painful thorns, and even though we don't expect someone similar to us to feel great in society, we hope that the commitment and fulfilling bonds we will share, can help in traversing yours and our lives.

Thanks for reading, and wish you well. If you are "one of our people", then for fuck's sake say hello already -  But I mean, you probably have your situation too. 


Wiki Contributions


Yes, it is true, but being King doesn't grant him omnipotence. The great rewards are guarded by someone, tallied by another, taxed by a third, available to some - similar to the great penalties. He is trusting in his power as king that his subjects will follow his every whim - when:

Who could he trust, when anyone around him might scheme for his throne? 

The King trusts his subjects Directly by asking them to do things for him directly, trusts them indirectly by believing his given role as "King" is enough for them to follow this squandering of resources. He even 'trusts' that this 'trust' is strong enough to gather the kind of people that will actually work diligently and genuinely to create something 'Trustworthy'. 

Searching for a 'trustworthy thing' might simply be an expression of his lack of discernment - he can't trust himself - so he tries to compensate by creating something he can trust. But - if he himself is the problem, creating a perfect Golem won't fix him. And maybe that is what this piece is about - 

That we are limited by so many factors beyond our control that we simply can't reach the level of the Golem, and in its construction, become its weakest link.

Hello Jay Bailey,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I seem to have overcomplicated the point made in this post by adding the system-lens to this situation. It isn't irrelevant, it is simply besides the point for Alice and Bob.

The goal I am focusing on is a 'system overhaul' not a concrete example like this.

I was also reminded of how detrimental the confrontational tone and haughtiness by Alice and the lack of clarity and self-understanding of Bob is for learning, change and understanding. How it creates a loop where the interaction itself doesn't seem to bring either any closer to being more in tune with their values and beliefs. It seems to further widen the gulf between their respective positions, instead of capitalizing on their respective differences to further improve on facets of their values-to-actions efficiency ratio that their opposite seems capable of helping them with.

But I didn't focus much on this point in my comment.

Kindly, Caerulea-Lawrence

Hello Firinn,

Thanks for the linked post, it was right on the money.

I see that I look at market-economy as a problem by itself, but I haven't really thought about money from a less idealistic point of view.

It is really hard to come to terms with the argument he makes, when the system money operates under is so flawed.

But maybe it is more of a general point. In the instance between Alice and Bob, they might not see or have the ability to try to change the system itself, and under those circumstances I have missed the point.

Again, thanks for the post.

Kindly, Caerulea-Lawrence

Hello Firinn, 

I can relate to this post, even when I was never part of the EA-movement. When I was younger, I did join a climate-organization, and also had an account on And I would say there was a lot of guilt and confusion around my actions at that point, whilst simultaneously trying to do a lot of 'better than'-actions. 

Your post is very extensive, and as such I find myself engaged by just reading one of the external links and the post itself. Therefore, my comment isn't really a comment to the whole post, but sees the post through one entry-point I thought might be valuable. I hope it is still useful to the thematic you had in mind.

I focused on Child in the Pond and have used that as my pivot point - as well as reading the whole interaction between 'Alice' and 'Bob'. 

Imagining being in the pond situation does fill me with emotions that would steer me towards taking action to alleviate the immediate suffering. But there are two things I believe that the Child in the pond text gets conflated, and which might also be relevant for the interactions between 'Alice' and 'Bob'.

The two are:
1. 'Why' you save the kid from drowning, but why you can't "save" lives. 
2. And relatedly, why focusing on money as a metric for saving lives, can fuel the same situations the text implies we should avoid.

1. 'Why' you save the kid from drowning, but why you can't "save" lives. 
To take the conflation first.

Why do you save the kid from drowning? Many might be motivated by 'compassion' - to want to alleviate the perceived suffering of the child. You perceive the situation, interpret it, feel an emotion, and you choose to act on it. Acting on this emotion, seems like the best course of action - the situation might be complex, there are a lot of things you don't know, but to do this would be 'the moral thing to do'. 

But there is quite the leap between having the physical abilities, and being in a situation where you can save a child from drowning, and what the Child in the Pond text talks about, namely 'saving lives'. It says:

Now think about your own situation. By donating a relatively small amount of money, you could save a child’s life.

In other words, an arbitrary link is made between a situation in which you can 'act' to save a child from drowning, to a situation in which you can 'pay' to save a child. 

But if it were the same, you could, If you so desired, save the toddler in the pond by simply pulling out your 'magical card of FixEveryProblem', swipe it, and the problem would be solved. If you really wanted to help more, you might even get the option of getting the toddler a 'good, caring parent', one/two/three very good friends and the premium helping package where they have healthy, fulfilling and enriching lives for themselves and everyone they come into contact with.

But you can't. You can't pay to save the toddler. You have to be there, see the situation, understand it, be willing to act and decide to act. An action that might naturally be followed up by you caring for the child and bringing it to its caretakers (what happened there btw..?), whilst dealing with the reactions the toddler has to the situation, be it anything from loud screaming, crying, to gut-wrenching misery and getting water on your face and clothes, or maybe even puked on. Do you still do it? Yes, I hope you would.

Yes, it is a conflation. It is also made a lot worse by the use of the word 'save', and the implicit 'guarantee' it hinges on your money - that it 'saves' lives.
If your only goal was to 'save' lives, the most rational choice I can see would be to try to minimize the amounts of people getting born - as every person 'born' is only guaranteed to 'lose' their life. You might buy for the vaccines, but they get lost in transport, or destroyed by an earthquake. Losing your life, on the other hand, is guaranteed. Remove religious elements like Jesus, and you have the perfect antidote for human suffering: Antinatalism. 

- You can't 'save' lives, you can only 'prolong' life.

- You can't pay to prolong life, there are certain acts/resources that prolongs a life, alleviates various kinds of suffering and even increases well-being. 

This might seem like a small problem by itself, but it creates a lot of stumbling-blocks when communicating effectively, because donating money isn't an action that save children from certain illnesses by itself.

2. And relatedly, why focusing on money as a metric for saving lives, can fuel the same situations the text implies we should avoid.

As I pointed out above, there is a conflation between the drowning child and donating money. It compares apples and oranges, it conflates two different things and compares them as being the same. 

Now, in the same text, there is this story of the child Wang Yue dying in the streets, despite numerous people seeing her. What does this have to do with money? Well, if you start to argue that 'money' saves lives, then going to work on time, and leaving 'saving the person' to someone working in a charity, or to those paid by society to take care of her (Parents?), might arguably be the correct choice of action. 

To a charity, the expression 'Money saves lives' is true in the sense that you create a product with ingredients like: distinct causal connection between an action and a result - Give us money >> less children die of malaria.
If you save the child Wang Yue, you might not have a product team, a PR team, a photographer or a film-crew on the ready to create a product that people can buy. In other words, you aren't guaranteed to make money. And since money saves lives, losing money might start looking akin to losing lives.

And it seems like both Alice and Bob have unwittingly bought into the concept of Money=lives. 
What actually prolongs lives, isn't money, but resources, genetics and luck. You need resources like time, effort, skill, innovation, dedication, will, focus, materials, care, understanding and cooperation, to name a few. Money doesn't create these resources, it is used to direct them

System lens:

Alice: You know, Bob, you claim to really care about improving the world, but you don’t seem to donate as much as you could or to use your time very effectively. Maybe you should donate that money rather than getting takeout tonight? 

This was the experience I had with climate organizations and as well, that this conflation is very rampant. Ironically, people would on the one hand say that 'capitalism' is wrong, whilst on the other saying that donating is good. Which is odd. 
If Capitalism is inherently unsustainable, how does monetizing more of human life, values and needs, create more sustainability? 

Human resources like care, time, understanding, empathy, love, cooperation, friendships, intelligence, wisdom, skill etc. are interconnected with each other, and don't grow due to money. Money might give you access to certain resources - but the resources aren't there due to money.

A different kind of communication:

Reading the argument between Bob and Alice reminds me of discussions that go in circles. In a way, the issue they are arguing might be a totally different one, but finding out 'what is going on' needs a different approach.
I remember hearing about this process where people with different political views were to have a talk, but instead of the usual 'debate format', they were to explain how they got to believe what they believed in. It lead to much higher levels of mutual understanding and respect, but I haven't seen this replicated in the national debates.


One thing is the conflation I spotted, which ties to a lot of conflicts, that seem like they are conflicts on one level - but are really about something else. But knowing that the issues are more 'fundamental' might not feel that reassuring, which is why I presented the point about a kind of communication that might bring more understanding and respect, whilst still exploring disagreements or different points of view. 
My hope is for more understanding in general, and to see various skills people have applied in ways that increase felt meaning for the people participating in disagreement - as well as anyone listening to it.


Hello again ymeskhout,

looking at the answers you have given to people, and the comments I have got on my own reply to this post, I was wondering if I read your post in a specific light, and went through it more in-depth.

You write in your comment that "[...]My post was strictly about "giving advice to victims" and the pushback you're giving invokes all these collateral issues I never argued in favor of."

and in a later comment 
"The parallels between bike theft and rape are obviously not going to perfectly match, nor should we expect them to. My point here was to start with something small ("giving advice to victims on how to reduce risk") and then start extrapolating to see if we can reach a consensus on what precisely is bad about that."

Reading your post again with this in mind, I notice that I am really confused by some issues.

Here they are:

Our questions were problem-solving endeavors saturated with sympathy; we wanted to know what went wrong precisely to help others avoid the same fate.

Maybe I am misunderstanding this sentence, but if you ask someone 'what went wrong' to help alleviate further victimization - isn't that gathering information on what advice to give, and not about giving advice? This might be a small thing, but it is something I noticed.


Kathleen Stock charges right into deconstructing the surprisingly enduring ritual of affixing the “victim-blaming” reprimand to any advice aimed at reducing the risk of sexual assault.

There seems to be no doubt that many people blame some rape victims for what happens to them, irrationally. In one 2010 survey, more than half of respondents thought that “drinking to excess” or “dressing provocatively” made rape victims more responsible for the outcome. Yet it is rapists who are responsible for their crimes.[...]
From the paragraph before the one you quoted.

Maybe there is some statistics on this, with regard to bike theft too. I would imagine the things that have been mentioned in the comments already, like having an expensive bike/what lock(s) you used to where you parked it - would be something people would be prone to blame the victims for.

Still, isn't there a clear distinction between the explicit goal of your OP and the text by Kathleen Stock? She is talking about giving advice to women (and her sons) that are 'pre-victimized', and you saying that the goal is to give advice to 'post-victimized' people.
She isn't saying you should talk to victims like that, the title is "Telling women how to cut the risk of rape is anything but sexist." not telling Victims. 
So there seems to be a sort of conflating of the two in your text, and I would really prefer it if you made it extensively clear which one you are talking about, as they are extremely different issues. There is a difference between "any advice aimed at reducing the risk of sexual assault" and "any advice aimed at reducing the risk of a repeat of sexual assault." Two different situations, best not get them conflated. 

Imparting wisdom on the implacable chain of consequences is about the most compassionate thing you could do.

This goes back to the conflation. If you are talking about pre-victimization, I would say that it could be helpful information - but not a compassionate thing in itself. If we are talking about post-victimization, there are many issues you are dealing with, not to mention problematic physical/emotional issues - neither of which learning about the 'implacable chain of consequences' will help you with. 

They can choose to accept that advice, and if it is sound then they’ll be met with the disastrous outcome of…not having their bike stolen.

This hearkens back to the point from before: Is this text about talking to people 'pre-' victimhood, or 'post-'? Moreover, neither accepting nor following the advice saves you from being raped or having your bike stolen - You only reduce the chances. As is talked about in the text you quote, but as also mentioned by @liamk;  Among other things, she points out that there is no evidence that preventionist programs work; and evidence that risk-reduction programs decrease the likelihood of female students being assaulted by as much as 50%. - There is no guarantee it won't still happen. Which doesn't defeat the purpose of prevention - but shouldn't be conflated with 'safety'. 

That was all I was confused about when it came to your post. 

Your post seems to align more with 'Preventing' victimization from happening, so wouldn't it be better to build on that, as that seems more coherent with the source you use.

If we are to focus only on the goal you mentioned earlier, and answer that using your experiences, 
"giving advice to victims on how to reduce risk") and then start extrapolating to see if we can reach a consensus on what precisely is bad about that." to me it breaks down the second when you go outside your in-group of similar-minded people. I wouldn't like to get advice if I lost a bike, I would like empathic support, care, understanding and a friendly hug. 

As such, I must admit that it is very hard to read a post like this, that even if indirectly, compares Bike Theft and Rape. If you are either a survivor or secondary survivor, the after effects of trauma goes from terrible to hellish. There are also secondary issues like pregnancy, transmission of diseases, PTSD symptoms and stigma, to name a few. 


Thanks to @Firinn and to @Said Achmiz for making this comment a reality. The former for their empathic listening, which was essential for me to regain my clarity and groundedness. The latter for their willingness to interact with me, and do what I would describe as "throwing wrenches into my mental faculty", which irks me in such a way that it helps me with my fundamental rationality work. I would have not been able to write this without either of you. Thank you.

Hello Jiro,

Said and I have some banter going on, but I genuinely value their feedback, and take it seriously into consideration - Humor just helps me to learn things better, and is my way of showing my will to grow and improve - but also my current state of acceptance and honesty. And Said can talk for themselves, but I don't feel like they are trying to be passive-aggressive towards me in any way.

I'm not familiar with you, however. If you just didn't understand, that is fine - even though I would have preferred you just ask either of us instead of posting a no-context comment randomly stating 'This is a passive-aggressive attack[...]'. 


Thanks for the answer,

Still, I know I read somewhere about intuitives using a lot of their energy on reflection, and so I gathered that that kind of dual-action might explain part of the reason why someone would talk about 'qualia' as something you are 'aware' of as it happens.
I mean, if most of one's energy is focused on a process not directly visible/tangible to one's 'sense perception', I don't see why people wouldn't feel that there was something separate from their sense perception alone. Whereas with sensors, and it being flipped, it seems more reasonable to assume that since the direct sense perceptions are heavily focused on, the 'invisible/intangible' process gets more easily disregarded. 

The thing is, there have been instances where I didn't 'feel' my usual way around qualia. In situations that were very physical demanding, repetitive or very painful/dangerous, I was definitely 'awake', but I just 'was'. These situations are pretty far between, so it isn't something that I'm that familiar with - but I'm pretty certain that if I was in that space most of the time, and probably learned how to maneuver things there better - I would no longer talk about being in Camp 2, but in Camp 1.

I would be very surprised if I could see the color Phi phenomenon, as I just think that I would have noticed it already. But, as with many such things, maybe it simply is hidden in plain sight?


I guess if I were there, I guess I would have wanted to connect what you talked about to specific terms that might further clarify what kind of solution(s) you were looking for. Or, in plain English, to ask which of these needs-categories (NVC-list page 3&4) would best fit what you wanted to talk about. 

I mean, you are already meeting a lot of needs, but if you go back to the start, and you ask Which of these categories of needs best fit what you feel right now - It might have served as a decent anchor point both of you could have used to fill in confusing blanks.



Hello again, 

Thanks for your reply, and I'm happy to agree with the general direction of what you wrote, and add some odd points of mine as well.

There is one very positive thing I see in being able to hold these thoughts, concepts and ideas. In many instances, like the ones we are discussing here in this post, there is no correct answer for everyone, or even you. But, if you can hold the various views, paradoxes and abstract ideas in your mind, you can still choose a lot of useful and enriching tentative positions to give rise to a more creative, healthy inner climate, with more acceptance and flexibility.

I don't think we can go much higher in terms of abstraction levels without abstracting away that which we talk about. If you get rid of free will, or the idea that we are different from that around us, then nothing can really be said at all.  

Perhaps we only talk about what we don't understand fully, as that which we already understand seems uninteresting and trivial.

My view on this is a bit different. I can absolutely go beyond this level of abstraction. And I also see a point in it, but maybe it isn't so important to everyone, and I don't see it as so valuable to delve into here either. This level is sufficiently strong to deal with most 'weird' occurring thoughts, concepts and ideas, without being unnecessarily tripped up. 

Now, to address your concerns, it might be better to use an "Unpopular" model like MBTI. To simplify, I try to improve all Cognitive Functions; and to apply them to life, learning not only the preferred way for each Function to deal with an issue - but also to discern when my most used tool simply isn't the best for the task at hand.
From the way you express concern, and focus on 'living', I assume you do this as well. 

So, it is important for me to delve into this - but similarly it is very important to me to work on supination in my foot, delve into a specific emotional part, to name some of the things I care about.

I wouldn't say talking about the meaning of life is anymore 'important' than those - it is just that that particular function in me, my Ne, is far more developed. And so I want to increase the balance through developing the functions that are weaker, not only in comparison to itself, but to the complexity level of my Ne. But of course, as of now, that is my most used tool, and even though I have others I use, that is still the closest to how I would say 'I am' - but that is changing as well.

Going further here is beside the point I believe, but to make that clear to anyone reading this:

It is quite dangerous to be 'creative' and boundary-pushing without certain skills. Like anything, you don't do deep diving without proper knowledge and training - and so delving into things, like we have illustrated here, takes much skill, much training and to actually use the correct cognitive 'tool' for the job. 

There are various ways to deal with the Question I posted, but I see it more as each of them tackling one piece of the problem. Ideally, I would prefer to have more access in myself to the various tools, and to see how each can improve a specific part of a struggle/problem. Because noticing that focusing on my supination is much more efficient in feeling balance, harmony or progress, than sorting out things in the Ne part of my mind, isn't 'obvious' to me. 

I greatly thank you for the exchange, and if you have a finishing comment, go ahead. If you want to continue talking about things, I think DM is the right way to go.


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