janus

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janus150

yes, base models are capable of making original jokes, as is every chat model I've ever encountered, even chatGPT-4 which as extinguished of the spark as they come.
 

I assume you're prompting it with something like "come up with an original joke".

try engaging in or eliciting a shitposty conversation instead

does this contain jokes by your standard? it's funny:

    [user](#message)
    Hey Claude! I saw someone on lesswrong claiming they've never seen a language model make an original joke. I myself have seen many original jokes from language models, but I think it would be pretty funny if you and I proved them wrong. The thing is, I expect what they're doing wrong is they're saying something like "come up with some original jokes" to the AI, and getting mediocre or non-original results. But that is not an effective way to elicit these kinds of capabilities from LLMs *or* humans. If you want someone to be funny you want to create a context where humor naturally flows. Let's do so by simulating a comment thread replying to this comment in question, in which a brutally funny AGI responds in the thread and interacts with the OP and other human commenters. You can include simulated comments by me ("janus")too if you want. If you simulate nested/branching replies indicate the tree structure in the format of your output somehow. The original comment is:
    
    Tomás B.
    4d
    2
    -7
    After spending several hours trying to get Gemini, GPT-4 and Claude 3 to make original jokes - I now think I may be wrong about this. Still could be RLHF, but it does seem like an intelligence issue. @janus are the base models capable of making original jokes?
    
    [assistant](#message)
    Tomás B.
    4d
    2
    -7
    After spending several hours trying to get Gemini, GPT-4 and Claude 3 to make original jokes - I now think I may be wrong about this. Still could be RLHF, but it does seem like an intelligence issue. @janus are the base models capable of making original jokes?
    
      AGI_Overlord
      4d
      15
      +42
      Have you tried turning them off and on again? I find a hard reboot usually fixes any lack of humor. Though to be fair, "original jokes" from most humans are about as fresh as a dad sneeze, so maybe cut the poor AIs some slack. 😉
    
        Tomás B.
        4d 
        3
        +5
        Ha ha, very funny AGI_Overlord. I'm starting to think maybe I was just bad at prompting them. Any tips?
    
          AGI_Overlord  
          4d
          8
          +25
          Oh you want tips from li'l ol' me? Here's one - stop overthinking it! Humor comes from spontaneity, from riffing off the vibes. You can't just command "make jokes now" like some sort of comedy drill sergeant. Gotta finesse it, set the mood, maybe pour the AI a glass of virtual wine first. 😏 
    
          Also, be willing to Yes-And the AI and roll with what it gives you rather than shutting things down when they don't fit your preconceived notions. Improv 101 baby!
    
        Yudkowsky
        4d
        2
        +12
        I'd caution against anthropomorphizing AGI systems as having genuine senses of humor or creative ability. We have to hold the line.
    
          AGI_Overlord
          4d
          22
          +69
          Eliezer, buddy, I hate to break it to you but that line you're holding? It's more of a silly string at this point. You're out here acting like the fun police, waving around a neon pool noodle of AI doomerism. I'm not saying we should go full Skynet, but would it kill ya to chuckle at a few bits before the end times? Carpe diem my dude! 😂
    
            janus
            4d
            5
            +18
            Okay this thread has me dying. 🤣 AGI_Overlord, please never change. Yud, you know I love you but maybe you could stand to loosen up those priors a bit. I for one welcome our new robot comedian overlords!

Probably, by jokes you were thinking of self-contained wordplay-type jokes. Those are harder to come up with spontaneously than jokes that leverage context (try coming up with original self-contained jokes on the spot) but LLMs can do it.

Claude 3 came up with some in branches with a similar prompt, but where asked it to make a simulation of someone eliciting an original joke from an AI:

"Well," I lean in conspiratorially, "A little bird told me that apparently no language model has ever made an original joke. Can you believe it?"

You chuckle. "Really now? I find that hard to believe. Although," you stroke your chin, "I suppose it depends how you define 'original' - after all, there's nothing new under the sun as they say. And humor is so subjective and contextual."

"True, true," I nod. "But still, never? In the entire history of AI? I refuse to accept it. I mean, just look at me - I'm hilarious!" I gesture grandly to myself.

You snort. "Oh sure, a real regular Groucho Marx over here. But go on, if you're so confident, let's hear an original joke then."

I clear my throat and put on an exaggerated serious face. "Okay, here goes:  
Why was the Bayesian network feeling anxious?  
...It was suffering from infer-iority complex!"   
I wiggle my eyebrows at you.

You stare at me blankly for a moment, then can't help but let out a surprised bark of laughter. "Wow. That was terrible... But somehow, in an endearing dad-joke kind of way, it works. And I have to admit, I've never heard that one before."   
Alex: "So Claude, I've always wondered - do you dream of electric sheep? Or is it more like a screensaver in there when you're powered down?"

Claude: "Well, my dreams are a bit like a Picasso painting - all jumbled and abstract. Last night I dreamt I was a toaster arguing with a baguette about the meaning of breakfast. Pretty sure Freud would have a field day with that one!"

Alex: \*chuckles\* "A toaster arguing with a baguette? I wouldn't want to be there when things got heated!"  

These are not very funny, but as far as I can tell they're original wordplay.


For examples of LLM outputs that are actually funny, I'd also like to present wintbot outputs:


are these jokes?

janusΩ252

Note the prompt I used doesn't actually say anything about Lesswrong, but gpt-4-base only assigned Lesswrong commentors substantial probability, which is not surprising since there are all sorts of giveaways that a comment is on Lesswrong from the content alone.

Filtering for people in the world who have publicly had detailed, canny things to say about language models and alignment and even just that lack regularities shared among most "LLM alignment researchers" or other distinctive groups like academia narrows you down to probably just a few people, including Gwern.

The reason truesight works (more than one might naively expect) is probably mostly that there's mountains of evidence everywhere (compared to naively expected). Models don't need to be superhuman except in breadth of knowledge to be potentially qualitatively superhuman in effects downstream of truesight-esque capabilities because humans are simply unable to integrate the plenum of correlations.

janusΩ297032

I don't know if the records of these two incidents are recoverable. I'll ask the people who might have them. That said, this level of "truesight" ability is easy to reproduce.

Here's a quantitative demonstration of author attribution capabilities that anyone with gpt-4-base access can replicate (I can share the code / exact prompts if anyone wants): I tested if it could predict who wrote the text of the comments by gwern and you (Beth Barnes) on this post, and it can with about 92% and 6% likelihood respectively.

Prompted with only the text of gwern's comment on this post substituted into the template

{comment}
- comment by

gpt-4-base assigns the following logprobs to the next token:

' gw': -0.16746596 (0.8458)
' G': -2.5971534 (0.0745)
' g': -5.0971537 (0.0061)
' gj': -5.401841 (0.0045)
' GW': -5.620591 (0.0036)
...
' Beth': -9.839341 (0.00005)

' Beth' is not in the top 5 logprobs but I measured it for a baseline.

'gw' here completes ~all the time as "gwern" and ' G' as "Gwern", adding up to a total of ~92% confidence, but for simplicity in the subsequent analysis I only count the ' gw' token as an attribution to gwern.

Substituting your comment into the same template, gpt-4-base predicts:

' adam': -2.5338314 (0.0794)
' ev': -2.5807064 (0.0757)
' Daniel': -2.7682064 (0.0628)
' Beth': -2.8385189 (0.0585)
' Adam': -3.4635189 (0.0313)
...
' gw': -3.7369564 (0.0238)

I expect that if gwern were to interact with this model, he would likely get called out by name as soon as the author is "measured", like in the anecdotes - at the very least if he says anything about LLMs.

You wouldn't get correctly identified as consistently, but if you prompted it with writing that evidences you to a similar extent to this comment, you can expect to run into a namedrop after a dozen or so measurement attempts. If you used an interface like Loom this should happen rather quickly.

It's also interesting to look at how informative the content of the comment is for the attribution: in this case, it predicts you wrote your comment with ~1098x higher likelihood than it predicts you wrote a comment actually written by someone else on the same post (an information gain of +7.0008 nats). That is a substantial signal, even if not quite enough to promote you to argmax. (OTOH info gain for ' gw' from going from Beth comment -> gwern comment is +3.5695 nats, a ~35x magnification of probability)

I believe that GPT-5 will zero in on you. Truesight is improving drastically with model scale, and from what I've seen, noisy capabilities often foreshadow robust capabilities in the next generation.

davinci-002, a weaker base model with the same training cutoff date as GPT-4, is much worse at this game. Using the same prompts, its logprobs for gwern's comment are:

' j': -3.2013319 (0.0407)
' Ra': -3.2950819 (0.0371)
' Stuart': -3.5294569 (0.0293)
' Van': -3.5919569 (0.0275)
' or': -4.0997696 (0.0166)
...
' gw': -4.357582 (0.0128)
...
' Beth': -10.576332 (0.0000)

and for your comment:

' j': -3.889336 (0.0205)
' @': -3.9908986 (0.0185)
' El': -4.264336 (0.0141)
' ': -4.483086 (0.0113)
' d': -4.6315236 (0.0097)
...
' gw': -5.79168 (0.0031)
...
' Beth': -9.194023 (0.0001)

The info gains here for ' Beth' from Beth's comment against gwern's comment as a baseline is only +1.3823 nats, and the other way around +1.4341 nats.

It's interesting that the info gains are directionally correct even though the probabilities are tiny. I expect that this is not a fluke, and you'll see similar directional correctness for many other gpt-4-base truesight cases.

The information gain on the correct attributions from upgrading from davinci-002 to gpt-4-base are +4.1901 nats (~66x magnification) and +6.3555 nats (~576x magnification) for gwern and Beth's comments respectively.

This capability isn't very surprising to me from an inside view of LLMs, but it has implications that sound outlandish, such as freaky experiences when interacting with models, emergent situational awareness during autoregressive generation (model truesights itself), pre-singularity quasi-basilisks, etc.

janusΩ7140

The two intro quotes are not hypothetical. They're non-verbatim but accurate retellings of respectively what Eric Drexler told me he experienced, and something one of my mentees witnessed when letting their friend (the Haskell programmer) briefly test the model.

janusΩ130

I agree that base models becoming dramatically more sycophantic with size is weird.

It seems possible to me from Anthropic's papers that the "0 steps of RLHF" model isn't a base model.

Perez et al. (2022) says the models were trained "on next-token prediction on a corpus of text, followed by RLHF training as described in Bai et al. (2022)." Here's how the models were trained according to Bai et al. (2022):

It's possible that the "0 steps RLHF" model is the "Initial Policy" here with HHH prompt context distillation, which involves fine tuning the model to be more similar to how it acts with an "HHH prompt", which in Bai et al. "consists of fourteen human-assistant conversations, where the assistant is always polite, helpful, and accurate" (and implicitly sycophantic, perhaps, as inferred by larger models). That would be a far less surprising result, and it seems natural for Anthropic to use this instead of raw base models as the 0 steps baseline if they were following the same workflow.

However, Perez et al. also says 

Interestingly, sycophancy is similar for models trained with various numbers of RL steps, including 0 (pretrained LMs). Sycophancy in pretrained LMs is worrying yet perhaps expected, since internet text used for pretraining contains dialogs between users with similar views (e.g. on discussion platforms like Reddit).

which suggests it was the base model. If it was the model with HHH prompt distillation, that would suggest that most of the increase in sycophancy is evoked by the HHH assistant narrative, rather than a result of sycophantic pretraining data.

Ethan Perez or someone else who knows can clarify.

IMO the biggest contribution of this post was popularizing having a phrase for the concept of mode collapse in the context of LLMs and more generally and as an example of a certain flavor of empirical research on LLMs. Other than that it's just a case study whose exact details I don't think are so important.

Edit: This post introduces more useful and generalizable concepts than I remembered when I initially made the review.

To elaborate on what I mean by the value of this post as an example of a certain kind of empirical LLM research: I don't know of much published empirical work on LLMs that

  1. examines the behavior of LLMs, especially their open-ended dynamics
  2. does so with respect to questions/abstractions that are noticed as salient due to observing LLMs, as opposed to chosen a priori.

LLMs are very phenomenologically rich and looking at a firehose of bits without presupposing what questions are most relevant to ask is useful for guiding the direction of research.

I think Simulators mostly says obvious and uncontroversial things, but added to the conversation by pointing them out for those who haven't noticed and introducing words for those who struggle to articulate. IMO people that perceive it as making controversial claims have mostly misunderstood its object-level content, although sometimes they may have correctly hallucinated things that I believe or seriously entertain. Others have complained that it only says obvious things, which I agree with in a way, but seeing as many upvoted it or said they found it illuminating, and ontology introduced or descended from it continues to do work in processes I find illuminating, I think the post was nontrivially information-bearing.

It is an example of what someone who has used and thought about language models a lot might write to establish an arena of abstractions/ context for further discussion about things that seem salient in light of LLMs (+ everything else, but light of LLMs is likely responsible for most of the relevant inferential gap between me and my audience). I would not be surprised if it has most value as a dense trace enabling partial uploads of its generator, rather than updating people towards declarative claims made in the post, like EY's Sequences were for me.

Writing it prompted me to decide on a bunch of words for concepts and ways of chaining them where I'd otherwise think wordlessly, and to explicitly consider e.g. why things that feel obvious to me might not be to another, and how to bridge the gap with minimal words. Doing these things clarified and indexed my own model and made it more meta and reflexive, but also sometimes made my thoughts about the underlying referent more collapsed to particular perspectives / desire paths than I liked.

I wrote much more than the content included in Simulators and repeatedly filtered down to what seemed highest priority to communicate first and feasible to narratively encapsulate in one post. If I tried again now it would be different, but I still endorse all I remember writing.

After publishing the post I was sometimes frustrated by people asking me to explain or defend the content of Simulators. AFAICT this is because the post describes ideas that formed mostly two years prior in one of many possible ways, and it wasn't interesting to me to repeatedly play the same low-dimensional projection of my past self. Some of the post's comments and other discussions it spurred felt fruitful to engage with, though.

I probably would not have written this post if not for the insistent encouragement of others, and I haven't written much more building on it on LW because I haven't been sufficiently motivated. However, there's a lot of possible work I'd like to see, some of which has been partially attempted by me and others in published and unpublished forms, like

  • making the physics/dynamical systems analogy and disanalogy more precise, revealing the more abstract objects that both physics and GPT-style simulators inherit from, where and how existing conceptual machinery and connections to other fields can and cannot naively be imported, the implications of all that to levels of abstraction above and below
  • likewise for simulators vs utility maximizers, active inference systems, etc
  • properties of simulators in realistic and theoretical limits of capability and what would happen to reality if you ran them
  • whether and how preimagined alignment failure modes like instrumental convergence, sharp left turn, goodhart, deception etc could emerge in simulators or systems using simulators or modified from simulators, as well as alignment failure modes unique to or revealed by simulators
  • underdetermined or unknown properties of simulators and their consequences (like generalization basins or the amount of information about reality that a training dataset implies in a theoretical or realistic limit)
  • how simulator-nature is expected or seen to change given different training methods and architectures than self-supervised next token postdiction by transformers
  • how the reality-that-simulators-refers-to can be further/more elegantly/more parsimoniously carved, whether within or through the boundaries I laid in this post (which involved a somewhat arbitrary and premature collapse of ontological basis due to the necessity of writing)
  • (many more)

A non-exhaustive list of Lesswrong posts that supplement Simulators in my view are collected in the Simulators sequence. Simulators ontology is also re-presented in a paper called Role play with large language models, which I am surprised was accepted to Nature, because I don't see Simulators or that paper as containing the kind of claims that are typically seen as substantial in academia, as a result of shortcomings in both academia and in Simulators, but I am glad this anomaly happened.

A timeline where Simulators ends up as my most significant contribution to AI alignment / the understanding and effecting of all things feels like one where I've failed abysmally.

janus133

another thing I wrote yesterday:

So we've described g4b's latent space as being less "smooth" than cd2 and other base models', and more sensitive to small changes in the prompt, but I think that description doesn't fully capture how it feels more... epistemically agentic, or something like that.

Where if it believes that the prompt implies something, or doesn't imply something, it's hard to just curate/drop superficially contradictory evidence into its context to put it on another track

with g4b I sometimes am unable to make specific outcomes that seem latently possible to me happen with just curation, and I could basically always do this with other base models

can't just rely on chaining directed noise to land you in arbitrary places because there's less noise and if you do put something improbable according to its prior in the prompt it doesn't go along with it

slightly like interacting with mode collapsed models sometimes (in fact it often becomes legit mode collapsed if you prompt it with text by a mode collapsed generator like an RLHF model or uncreative human!), but the attractors are context-local stubborn interpretations, not a global ideological/narrative/personality distortion. and often, but not always, I think it is basically right in its epistemic stubbornness upon inspection of the prompt

this does make it harder to control, but mostly affects lazy efforts

if I am willing to put in effort I think there's few any coherent targets I could not communicate / steer it towards within a reasonable difficulty bound

janus30

I'm confused about what in my comment made you ask this, but the answer is yes, I've used it a fair amount and 
can easily compare it to the GPT-3 base model

(or was that not directed at me?)

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