Jasnah Kholin

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So i read a lot of dah-ilani glowfics the previous weeks, and yet, i didn't guess right. i didn't stop to put numbers on it, so i can in retrospective (and still not sure it's actually good idea to put numbers on all things). and it was 0.9 that the stroy is about kid losing trust in adults because they was told a lie, and 0.3 that after that, it turned out they should trust adults and this distrust is bad (like teens that think all drugs are not dangerous because adults exaggerate the harm of the less-harmful ones). in that situation, i was basically 50-50 divided if the Aesop is about the importance of bounded trust for the reader, that should see themselves as the kid, or that lying to children is bad, and the reader should not do that. 

i did realized it's dath illan and experiment some time after. and now i even more curious to what dath ilan would do with people like me, who see lying as Evil. not try to change them - the utilityfunction is not up to grabs.

i'm pretty sure typical minding make my attempts to do that sub-optimal. i just find it hard to imagine society when most people actually OK with that state of affairs. but my attempts at imagining trust broken and things go bad feel unrealistic, an-dath-ilani to my sense of how-dath-ilan-is. for example, this: https://pastebin.com/raw/fjpS2ZDP doesn't strike me as realistic. i expect dath ilan can use the fact the Keepers Are Trustworthy for example, to swear to a child they will never ever pull such experiments on them, and the child believe that. i expect dath ilan check in younger age how children react to that sort of thing, that is standard on dath-ilani education, and stop if they see it bad for some kid.

and yet... the utilityfunction is not up to grabs. and for some reason, this "fact" about dath ilan is somehow more bad then, for example, the places where dath ilan allow people lack of reflection so they can remain themselves and not go full Keeper.  i disagree there and find it wrong, but it strike me as difference in prioritization, when here it's look like our utilityfunctions are opposite in this small section.

i see lies and deceptions as Evil, even of sometimes it can be traded off, and society with more slack will use it to lie much less, almost never. dath ilan LIKE it's clever experiments and lies children should figure out for themselves. and i would have expected that Keepers would be the type of people that HATE such lies with fury of a thousand suns. so in the end, i remain confused, and feel like dath ilan is somewhat world-where-people-like-me-doesn't-exist. which, most Utopias just ignore uncomfortable complications, but dath ilan is much better then most. and i can't really believe dath ilan heredity-optimized to not have people that hate lying and being lied to.

so in the end, i just confused.

this also describe math. like, the mote complicated math that have some prerequisites and person that didn't take the courses in collage or some analog will not understand.

math, by my understanding of "legibility", is VERY legible. same about programming, physics, and a whole bunch of explicitly lawful but complicated things. 

what is your understanding about that sort of things?

 

I already have them in my reading list, but after that post i plan to epub them and read them soon. 

this is extremely good post. it example and illustrate the sort of mental-moves i believe is needed for rational thinking, of the variety of "know thyself". those things are even harder then normal to communicate, and i find this post manage to do that, and manage to give me useful information, and give me example of how such introspection can happen. i really impressed!

somewhere (i can't find it now) some else wrote that if he will do that, Said always can say it's not exactly what he means.

In this case, i find the comment itself not very insulting - the insult is in the general absent of Goodwill between Said and Duncan, and in the refuse to do interpretive labor. so any comment of "my model of you was <model> and now i just confused" could have worked.

my model of Duncan avoided to post it here from the general problems in LW, but i wasn't surprised it was specific problem. I have no idea what was Said's model of Duncan. but, i will try, with the caveat that the Said's model of Duncan suggested is almost certainly not true :

I though that you avoid putting it in LW because there will be strong and wrong pushback here against the concept of imaginary injury. it seem coherent with the crux of the post. now, when I learn the true, i simply confused. in my model, what you want to avoid is exactly the imaginary injury described in the post, and i can't form coherent model of you.

i suspect Said would have say i don't pass his ideological Turning test on that, or continue to say it's not exact. I submit that if i cannot, it's not writing not-insultingly, but passing his ideological turning test.

i think we have very different models of things, so i will try to clarify mine. my best bubble site example is not in English, so i will give another one - the emotional Labor thread in MetaFilter, and MetaFilter as whole. just look on the sheer LENGTH of this page!

https://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor

there are much more then 3 comments from person there.

from my point of view, this rule create hard ceiling that forbid the best discussions to have. because the best discussions are creative back-and-forth. my best discussions with friends are  - one share model, one ask questions, or share different model, or share experience, the other react, etc. for way more then three comments. more like 30 comments. it's dialog. and there are lot of unproductive examples for that in LW. and it's quite possible (as in, i assign to it probability of 0.9) that in first-order effects, it will cut out unproductive discussions and will be positive.

but i find rules that prevent the best things from happening as bad in some way that i can't explain clearly. something like, I'm here to try to go higher. if it's impossible, then why bother? 

I also think it's VERY restrictive rule. i wrote more then three comments here, and you are the first one to answer me. like, i'm just right now taking part in counter-example to "would find it surprising if you needed more than 3 comments per day to share examples, personal experiences, intuitions and relations."

i shared my opinions on very different and unrelated parts of this conversation here. this is my six comment. and i feel i reacted very low-heat. the idea i should avoid or conserve those comments to have only three make me want to avoid comment on LW altogether. the message i get from this rule is like... is like i assumed guilty of thing i literately never do, and so have very restricted rules placed on me, and it's very unfriendly in a way that i find hard to describe.

like, 90% of the activity this rule will restrict is legitimate, good comments. this is awful false positive ratio. even if you don't count the you-are-bad-and-unwelcome effect i feel from it and you, apparently, not.

 

i don't think it will go more productive. explaining harder is not my default mode. my default mode is more close to your suggestions, and so i can tell from experience it's NOT productive. what happen next is Fabricated Options, and refusal to react rationally to evidence.

like, i can remember ONE time when i got sensible reaction. and there are locally-infamous situation when socialist politician agreed that their proposal was tried and the results was bad, only to use the same proposal afterwards. 

the standard failure mode i have with socialists in discussion is ignoring or outright denying bad consequences. the good version is accepting the price and prefer this version, or having wildly different frame and so different model and predictions. and most of political discussions are bad - capitalists tend to replay in slogans and ignore evidence of socialists policies working, too. 

maybe it'ss different worlds or inverting every advise situation. because when i read the title, i was sure the post will be about explaining capitalism harder, because in my experience, this is the helpful thing people need to do more, while your proposal for different strategy is the current, inefficient one. 

i find the fact that you see comments as criticism, and not expanding and continuing the building, is indicative of what i see as problematic. good comments should most of the time not be critisim. be part of the building. 

the dynamic that is good in my eyes, is one when comments are making the post better not by criticize it, but by sharing examples, personal experiences, intuitions, and the relations of those with the post. 

counting all comments as prune instead of bubble disincentivize bubble-comments. this is what you want?

(3) i didn't watch the movie, nor i plan to watch it, but i read the plot summary in Wikipedia. and I see it as caution against escalation. the people there consistently believe that you should revenge on 1 point offense at 4 points punishment. and this create escalation cycle.

while i think most of Duncan's writing is good, the thing when i think he consistently create bad situations, is in unproportional escalations of conflict, and inability to just let things be. 


once upon a time if i saw someone did something 1 point bad and someone reacting in 3 point bad thing, i would think the first one is 90% of the problem. with time, i find robustness more and more important, and now i see the second one more problematic. as such. i disagree with your description of the movie.

the plot is one people doing something bad, other refuse to punish him, and a lot of people that escalate things, and so, by my standards, doing bad things. LOT of bad things. to call it a chin reaction is to not assign the people that doing bad unproportional escalating things agency over their bad choices. it's strange for me, as i see this agency very clearly. 

"I do generally wish Duncan did more of this and less trying to set-the-record straight in ways that escalate in IMO very costly ways"

strongly agree.

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