re: Pascal's Mugging. There are thresholds. Would a guy hand over his wallet if he was about to die from starvation, and the wallet contained his only means to prevent this? A quadrillion doesn't matter if he is not alive to see it.
The difference is that the best information we have, indicates that no available "officially sanctioned" structural change is better than radical change, if the goal is the survival of the human species. Inequality (capitalism) killed democracy, because wealth is power. WE cannot vote using a democracy we do not have t...
re: self evident. If no one is left alive to question, then there are no more questions from us. Tree-falling in the woods. Does it fall is no-one notices? Yes. Do we care? On what foundation do we judge this new lack of tree?
We "know" so little, or at least know our knowledge is imperfect, so we also know that we would form more coherent/accurate/cogent value judgements if we had more information which was accurate. Our present judgements on moral value are likely to change with a greater understanding of reality.
If, right now, we don't value hu...
This is more about "Prima facie", as a legal and rational term. On face value, we weigh evidence, intending to look anew. We must consciously discard existing assumptions, in order to consciously re-asses the topic of free will.
We accept that: -in utero nutrients and stress for the mother can affect behaviour later. -A horridly abusive childhood influences behaviour later. -A hot day can alter a person's cognitive ability. -Low blood sugar can affect emotional intensity and cognitive ability.
...There are so many circumstantial factors which influ...
So, Democracy does not exist. It isn't real. It is fake. It is a culturally accepted reality, but not an objective reality.
Short version: The lower 90% of citizens on the socioeconomic scale, have absolutely no influence over the actual policies which are enacted by the US government. No matter which party is in power, for the last 40+ years.
"Yes Minister" showed us all that the notion of an ideologue in politics is a fallacy. Whatever values a person has, those values are constantly compromised and neutered, because the way politics "really" works, is more about compromise based on career goals, not some sort of ideological purity.
Self interest kills idealistic goals.
Bureaucracy and the status quo render idealism untenable.
So, relying on politicians to create significant socioeconomic change in society, and the world, must rely on a person doing an impossible job. There is...
All questioning; one reasonable definition of human progress and value, ...would end if humans end. The process is what we are, more than anything else. We ask, we find answers, we evolve, we continue (hopefully) with better information than before. We make better decisions, and forge better priorities.
Some people I know are unperturbed by the idea of human extinction, as if the result would be "deserved" because "we" failed to survive.
I have a problem with that, relating to the notion that few humans decide the fate of many. A few of u...
The first goal of any moral human is to reduce the likelihood of human extinction. I hope that clears up the issue.
I would rather obey some different ideological socio-economic-political construct/model, than accept all of humanity ought to die to avoid such a scenario. After all we are speaking of a very few humans in positions of power, making these decisions for everyone, and they seem biased towards maintaining their own privilege as if it is objectively necessary. It is not. Involuntary bias is inherent to hierarchy. It is a product of social aparthei...
Thanks for the PK Dick origin. I'm grateful.
I've recently been examining the Sopolsky lectures on behavioural biology (25 part y-tube playlist from Stanford), and have had my view that objective free will is unlikely to exist in any practical way, thoroughly reinforced.
Feeling free, is rather different to being a free self determining agent.
It is remarkably useful to note that what "is", is not necessarily what we think/believe "is" real.
Subjective reality vs objective reality. Never the twain shall meet... but our subjective position o...
The "or" clauses in my question define sub-categories of the concept. Both ownership and profit motive are inherent to capitalist ideology, but neither define the whole.
Hmmm. If there is no human left to ask questions, moral philosophy becomes extinct, and all questions are moot. In order to continue questioning, there must still be humans alive. Ergo: the basis of all moral philosophy must be constrained by, and its quality measured by, the resulting probability of the continuation of humanity (including whatever evolutionary processes ensue). I...
The reason I care, is because if I feel enthusiastic about writing a piece on a topic, I don't want to bore others with what they have already considered. I don't know what others have already considered. I quite agree that correct is far more important than popular or common.
"Objective" is what is still real, when you do not believe in it.
Thanks for the feedback Elo, Luminifer, gjm.
"You are on an internet forum. How much safer to do you want to be?" - Lumifer. Some forums are "more equal than others." I suspect anyone who has had unpleasant experiences online develops a modicum of caution if not healthy apprehension.
One of the reasons I wish to participate here, is because of social isolation in a regional area. I don't have access to face to face discourse with people who share a curiosity or desire to analyse topics much further away than the end of their nose, so to s...
You are claiming the inherent bias of identity (ontology?), is involuntary. I'm not disagreeing, but pointing it out because it seems unavoidable. In service to being "Less Wrong" I suppose we'd all like to have such identity based bias highlighted for us in such a way which was not a cause of conflict and defensiveness. I visualise this a sort of communicative code, in which I pretend to be a robot, and try to avoid habits of subcultural expression.
Instead of saying "tankie" or "Stalinist" I should say "centralised autho...
I understand. I guess I am a little surprised that this forum has had problems with such views, given its intent.
I don't know which of my own views are unusual or not though. I am sure reading more of the content here will help me assess this. I don't know how commonly known, are notions of determinism, social engineering, or involuntary cultural identity. I may also be quite unskilled at describing such in a way which can change a mind. I don't know.
We do not know what assumptions we already hold, which we do not or have not questioned, until something ha...
Regarding politics, and the frowning, is it acceptable to focus on measurable results, rather than ideologies (or political "teams" - re: cerulean vs blue vs green)? Whilst I understand the tribalism you refer to, it is a bias this group and website seems to be inherently about combating; as such falsely dichotomous thinking is irrational.
For example: No matter which party is in power, across most of the world's countries, economic systems remain largely unaltered over recent decades. The social and psychological effects on cultural norms, born o...
Is there some sort of new member "kiddie pool" where people aspiring to improve their own rational processes can feel free to speak as they/we wish without knowing the correct terminology, and without an academic background regarding logic itself?
I guess, to learn, and express, in aid of learning, there needs to be some sort of safe "bumper bowling" alley available.
I have little access to formal education, and so, in the interests of self improvement, would like discourse which is both forgiving and conducive to improving discursive qua...
Hello to all rationalistas. (?)
I am new here, and I intend to lurk, doing the reading regularly, and catching up from a position of being far behind, until I feel more confident about contributing. I only discovered this group a few days ago.
I have unfortunately come to the conclusion that socioeconomic revolt, by any means necessary, is a moral and ethical imperative for all people, to maximise the chances of the survival of the human species.
I hope to be proven wrong, and have my bias revealed and dissected. I am perhaps rather desperate to be proven wrong, because I do not like my own conclusions.
Thanks in advance for any help I receive, and am able to reciprocate.
Addition If Gandhi was to be given the choice to reduce his empathy slightly, in exchange for a reward, and he did so, every new exchange like that is more likely to be agreed to. This idea was mentioned on this site somewhere.
It is the same with cultural indoctrination into hierarchical social structures. The more we become used to concentrated power, the less we are able to notice and assess other options. Cultural norms inform and restrain rational thought. Bias is involuntary. Now we see existential threat from the "normal" operation of our s... (read more)