Would it be terribly rude for me to point out that ... you guys are making up a lot of shit about Buddhism? It's like stumbling into a meetup of Creationists randomly speculating about physics and biology. It's so far removed that it isn't worth correcting you. You should just scrap it and start over. Or use very different terminology to talk about what it is you actually wish to talk about. You guys aren't even close to describing the differences between Theravada and Mahayana. 

"Dismantling your motives" is an interesting phrase, but I don't know what it means. What does this actually entail? How does one achieve this? 

I used to suffer from burnout all the time before I started Buddhist training. After a lot of effort, I did 'dismantle' that pattern. Does this count as dismantling my motives? Are we certain that the culture that perpetuates burnout as a common pattern among otherwise young, healthy people isn't the cultural program that 'dismantles your motives'? 

REVIEW
LessWrong is stuck in looped ways of being and thinking, and this was AN attempt at opening the door a bit, but I have the sense it wasn't a very effective attempt. 

I still appreciate the attempt. I'm not that good at meeting LW where it is, but I care to try.  

I am now thinking that using fiction or story would maybe be a better avenue. 

The main sticking points seem to be

• how does letting go actually make someone more effective (does the 'effectiveness' need to be legible to lots of ppl? I dont think so personally, but effectiveness can be objective here, not about people's personal opinions) 
• why wouldn't there be a worldview or set of worldviews sufficient to 'win' at problems? i don't know how to explain or express this right now. 

I cannot tell if you writing this is actually helpful or not. Nonetheless I personally appreciate the attempt. I'm inspired to try to speak a little about how I see it. 

I live in a community where 'going insane' is seen as a volitional act (volitional does not imply self-consciously aware; the vast majority of intentions or volitional actions are not in self-conscious awareness). So if someone acts in an insane way, it's seen as a mistake on their part, and we offer support as it seems appropriate. We don't bother blaming people. People != Their patterns of behavior or choices. And agreeing with you above, People != Personalities, on any level. 

When we talk about how to avoid insanity, we speak about taking "adult" responsibility, where "adult" is a technical term. Being an 'adult' is a stage of life; it's not where everyone needs to be. But we do see that lots of people who are 'of age' (18+) have been stuck in the 'adolescent' stage. (For instance, I am still working through this in my late 30s.) Another word we might use is 'parent'. Who's a parent? Versus a baby or child or teenager, which are also valid life stages. 

A properly responsible parental adult does not go insane (in this case, "going insane" could mean something like - have a psychotic break, get too depressed to get out of bed and feed the kids, throw a temper tantrum, or intentionally harm themselves such that they can't take care of their kids). "does not go insane" here means these things are NOT on the table; it's not in the conversation; it's not an option; it's not a possibility. This is importantly NOT some form of denial or active forcing. It's just gone from the picture. The whole world has moved such that this cannot happen. It's a clean cut. It's so clean that no one even remembers what the problem might have been. No one even considers it. What are we talking about? It's not worth wasting even one second on it.  

Note: We acknowledge that nowadays, lots of literal parents with children aren't responsible adults in this sense. And this might be sounding harsh and unforgiving or something, but again, we don't blame anybody here. But yes, it's a choice. We observe that society has been degrading people's ability to initiate into proper adulthood, but we should also acknowledge that we have been complicit in giving up our right to become an adult, to be initiated, and there's no comfortable way to deflect. 

So there's a lot more aged adolescents in the world, and the global machine mind wants that, for reasons that are pretty nefarious and evil imo, but that's another topic.

So the mechanism I'm speaking to is: Grow Up

There's a lot of parts to this, and it has taken me years to even work this out for myself, but that sums it up.

Some of the parts:

• Everything I do matters and has consequences
• I care. I have compassion for myself and others and, in fact, all life. 
• It's not about me (as Eliezer says above). 

One step for 'it's not about me' (which is a step out of adolescence and into adulthood) is to act for something larger than me. To live for something larger than myself. This can be as simple as living for one's family or children. But it can be as big as living for all of planet earth or for all beings through space and time. But I'd suggest starting with the smaller stuff, because for most people, 'planet earth' or "all of humanity" is conceptual, and that's not gonna cut it for actually making the shift. 

Making concrete, tangible sacrifices for something greater than myself is a pathway. In fact, it's good to train doing this all the time, so that nothing I do is for the sake of maintaining the character of my own story. 

I might be missing something, but the "soloware" project seems very likely to escalate misuse of AI by human beings and make things far less transparent (b/c now everything is custom-made and it's harder to track the cause-effect chains of how anything was created, and imo we want a drastic increase in accountability for every action taken by human and machine). 

It's going to take all the bad parts of individualist capitalist patterns / competition-seeking and turn the dial up, which is basically what happens anytime anyone applies collective-optimization pressure to a technology. 

I see a lot of risk and am unclear on the benefits. 

But let me try to articulate why one might see soloware as a good idea... 

If I believed that the issue with machines was this emphasis on 'replacing humans' by automating stuff, rather than empowering humans, then I might get what was better about this approach. <-- This is VERY succinct. But hopefully enough. 

However: 
There's nothing inherently 'robust' about human beings' alignment, at any scale. The alignment issue isn't just about artificial intelligences; it extends to human intelligence also, and in fact extends to just "intelligence" generally. Intelligence doesn't have any way to align itself, at any scale. (It needs 'wisdom' which is in some sense the "opposite" of intelligence.) 

You seem to point at this yourself with point #2 RE: humans and indifference risks. The problem isn't rooted in the AI's agency; it's also in the human's own agency. You won't solve one without solving both. 

So I guess it raises a Question:

Does one believe human intelligence or empowerment is somehow anchored to an alignment solution in some special way? 

FTR, I agree with the points made about the chatbot interface being problematic, for the reasons expressed. But my solutional direction would not be soloware, at least not as I understand or am seeing it implemented (i.e. by inviting some ppl to start trying it out more). 

My solutional direction might be something I'd call "Sacredware." 

In all likelihood, Sacredware would be designed by a small group of "only-corrigible-to-the-inconceivable" (Bodhi-corrigible) for "Everyone". This might end up looking like soloware, or something similarly flexible. And yet, it would also need to, at scale, rigorously avoid red queen dynamics, tragedy of the commons, and unnecessary killing of life. It would not be designed to cater to human preferences or comfort, but rather their collective spiritual development and ability to steward life on Earth. (In other words, it constantly affirms or upholds a set of virtues that transcends human societies or particular time&place, without major deviation, while being extremely adaptable for specific time&place.)

It would not be possible to get to Sacredware by starting with the soloware project, as far as I understand it. But that is difficult for me to explain here. 

(I'm not sure what term would be appropriate to encompass both soloware and groupware.)

fitware? 

I benefited greatly from my CFAR experience, as a participant, a volunteer mentor, and as full-time staff. 

The main early benefit was a boost to my self-confidence and agency, the realization that I could endlessly work to resolve my own problems (physical, emotional, and mental) and that there is no end to self-improvement and overcoming one's own obstacles. I was deeply inspired by CFAR instructors as role models. 

As a mentor, I realized I could also help others with their problems, and often this meant getting out of the way and simply acting as a mirror. 

As staff, I gained some much-needed common sense and the ability to work with physical objects and places. I learned to merge with tools and the venue itself, in order to do operations. I became better at time (like being on time and learning how long it takes to do things). I learned to value my voice and became more openly disagreeable. And a lot more that I won't list. 

I believe I also gained deep insights and new ways of being that bolstered my path of truth-seeking with CFAR, which then led me to even clearer truth-seeking paths. 

If there's a piece of curriculum that I think would be a helpful addition, it's how to escape all forms of victim mentality. All the benefit of a place like CFAR seems like it could come crashing down with victim mentality in the water. The "drama triangle" is a helpful framework here. 

You are speaking from a materialist, consequentialist worldview. I do not buy into this worldview. 

It has caused massive suffering and existential crises on the planet and is deeply deluded about what 'beneficial' is. 

• Any good reading on circling, spiral dynamics, or chakras off the top of your head?

No, none come to mind. 

This is like asking about reading how to ride a horse. Find someone who can teach you to ride a horse with real horses, and you'll learn 100x more, with less error. 

• How do you think about impact when going for arahantship, or do you reject the frame? I'd love to do this too but think I could do an (actually) impactful startup

Truly beneficial impact is only possible with Awakening. Everything is still based in delusion until realization, and stream entry is not sufficient. 

That does not mean you shouldn't do anything until then. We can use everything for the path of letting go. 

But simply telling yourself you are using everything for the path is not sufficient, and you are probably deceiving yourself in some way. Therefore find a true spiritual teacher, and a good spiritual community, who can keep you on track. 

Until then, you are going to be making decisions based on liking and disliking, grasping and avoiding, and none of that really works. It only creates more, bigger problems. 

You can check out the Buddhism for AI course online. Might be of interest. 

Any chance you could rattle off the next half dozen things that come to mind?

Connection Theory Charting (Leverage Research framework), Core Transformation, Tai Chi / Qi Gong, Bio-Emotive Processing (Doug Tataryn), Shaolin practice (Shi Heng Yi on YouTube), TWIM, Gendlin's Focusing, Immunity to Change (Kegan process), Improv Theater (see book Impro), Perri Chase (spiritual teacher online). 

I haven't done this one but I hear Alexander Technique is quite powerful. Also heard good things about Landmark.