Lovely! I think this is valuable. This comment is just to cheer you on. I hope that's allowed by LW rules.
Chiming in to also say that I think this post is valuable. But not only this post--posts like this in general. I really appreciate the work of you and people like you who are able to take a complex topic explained across multiple posts/sequences and by multiple people and distill it into a concise summary that feels approachable and understandable while also giving relevant links to find deeper material.
Like I think this is really, extremely valuable. So thank you and I look forward to reading more from you and anyone else who wants to submit work like this here!
To what extent do boundaries/modules typically exist "by default" in complex systems, vs require optimization pressure (e.g. training/selection) to appear?
Dalton Sakthivadivel showed here that boundaries (i.e., sparse couplings) do exist and are "ubiqutuous" in high-dimensional (i.e., complex) systems.
Getting traction on the deontic feasibility hypothesis
Davidad believes that using formalisms such as Markov Blankets would be crucial in encoding the desiderata that the AI should not cross boundary lines at various levels of the world-model. We only need to “imply high probability of existential safety”, so according to davidad, “we do not need to load much ethics or aesthetics in order to satisfy this claim (e.g. we probably do not get to use OAA to make sure people don't die of cancer, because cancer takes place inside the Markov Blanket, and that would conflict with boundary preservation; but it would work to make sure people don't die of violence or pandemics)”. Discussing this hypothesis more thoroughly seems important.
I think any finitely-specified deontology wouldn't ensure existential safety, and even more likely following just a finite deontology (such as "don't interfere with others' boundaries") can lead to a dystopian scenario for humanity.
In my current meta-ethical view, ethics is a style of behaviour (i.e., dynamics of a physical system) that is inferred by the system (or its supra-system, such as in the course of genetic or cultural evolution). The style could be characterised/described in the context of multiple different (or, perhaps infinitely many) modelling frameworks/theories for describing the dynamics of the system (perhaps, on various levels of description). Examples of such modelling frameworks are "raw" neural dynamics/connectomics (note: this is already a modelling framework, not the "bare" reality!), Bayesian Brain/Active Inference, Reinforcement Learning, cognitive psychology, evolutionary game theory, etc. All these theories would lead to somewhat different descriptions of the same behaviour which don't completely cover each other[1].
It seems easy to find counterexamples when intruding into someone's boundaries is an ethical thing to do and obtaining from that would be highly unethical. Sorting out multilevel conflicts/frustrations between infinitely many system/boundary partitions of the world[2] in the context of infinitely many theoretical frameworks (such as quantum mechanics[3], neural network framework[4], theory of conscious agents[5], etc.) should guide the attenuation of the best ethical style that we (AI agents) can attain, but I think it couldn't nearly be captured by a single deontic rule.
However, in "Mathematical Foundations for a Compositional Account of the Bayesian Brain" (2022), Smithe establishes that it might be possible to formally convert between these frameworks using category theory.
Vanchurin, V., Wolf, Y. I., Katsnelson, M. I., & Koonin, E. V. (2022). Toward a theory of evolution as multilevel learning. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 119(6), e2120037119. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2120037119
Fields, C., Friston, K., Glazebrook, J. F., & Levin, M. (2022). A free energy principle for generic quantum systems. Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology, 173, 36–59. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2022.05.006
Vanchurin, V. (2020). The World as a Neural Network. Entropy, 22(11), 1210. https://doi.org/10.3390/e22111210
Hoffman, D. D., Prakash, C., & Prentner, R. (2023). Fusions of Consciousness. Entropy, 25(1), 129.
Okay, I'll try to summarize your main points. Please let me know if this is right
Have I missed anything? I'll respond after you confirm.
Also, would you please share any key example(s) of #2?
You think «membranes» will not be able to be formalized in a consistent way, especially in a way that is consistent across different levels of modeling
No, I think membranes could be formalised (Markov blankets, objective "joints" of the environment as in https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.01514, etc.; though theory-laden, I think that the "diff" between the boundaries identifiable from the perspective of different theories is usually negligible).
We, humans, intrude into each others' boundaries, boundaries of animals, organisations, communities, etc. all the time. A surgeon intruding into the boundaries of a patient is an ethical thing to do. If AI automated the entire economy, then waited until humanity completely loses the ability to run the civilisation on their own, and then suddenly stopped any maintenance of the automated systems that support the lives of humans and sees how humans die out because they cannot support themselves would be "respecting humans' boundaries", but would also be an evil treacherous turn. Messing with Hitler's boundaries (i.e., killing him) in 1940 would be an ethical action from the perspective of most systems that may care about that (individual humans, organisations, countries, communities).
I think that boundaries (including consciousness boundaries: what is the locus of animal consciousness? Just the brain or the whole body, or it even extends beyond the body? What is the locus of AI's consciousness?) is an undeniably important concept that is usable for inferring ethical behaviour. But I don't think a simple "winning" deontology is derivable from this concept. I'm currently preparing an article where I describe that from the AI engineering perspective, deontology, virtue ethics, and consequentialism could be seen as engineering techniques (approaches) that could help to produce and continuously infer the ethical style of behaviour. None of these "classical" approaches to normative ethics is either necessary or sufficient, but they all could help to improve the ethics in some cognitive architectures.
I think that boundaries […] is an undeniably important concept that is usable for inferring ethical behaviour. But I don't think a simple "winning" deontology is derivable from this concept.
I see
I'm currently preparing an article where I describe that from the AI engineering perspective, deontology, virtue ethics, and consequentialism
please lmk when you post this. i've subscribed to your lw posts too
FWIW, I don't think the examples given necessarily break «membranes» as a "winning" deontological theory.
A surgeon intruding into the boundaries of a patient is an ethical thing to do.
If the patient has consented, there is no conflict.
(Important note: consent does not always nullify membrane violations. In this case it does, but there are many cases where it doesn't.)
If AI automated the entire economy, then waited until humanity completely loses the ability to run the civilisation on their own, and then suddenly stopped any maintenance of the automated systems that support the lives of humans and sees how humans die out because they cannot support themselves would be "respecting humans' boundaries", but would also be an evil treacherous turn.
I think a way to properly understand this might be.. If Alice makes a promise to Bob, she is essentially giving Bob a piece of herself, and that changes how he plans for the future and whatnot. If she revokes that by terms not part of the original agreement, she has stolen something from Bob, and that is a violation of membranes. ?
If the AI promises to support humans under an agreement, then breaks that agreement, that is theft.
Messing with Hitler's boundaries (i.e., killing him) in 1940 would be an ethical action from the perspective of most systems that may care about that (individual humans, organisations, countries, communities).
In a case like this I wonder if the theory would also need something like "minimize net boundary violations", kind of like how some deontologies make murder okay sometimes.
But then this gets really close to utilitarianism and that's gross imo. So I'm not sure. Maybe there's another way to address this? Maybe I see what you mean
Re: the "boundaries" tag, are you calling "«Boundaries»" vs "boundaries" to indicate you're referring to a special definition? Critch seemed to have an explicit definition for his posts in mind and maybe it's worth specifying one-particular-definition-over-others, but if this tag is (AFAICT) listing all content that's about boundaries in a technical-sense, I think it most likely makes sense to either just call the tag "Boundaries", or maybe "Boundaries [technical]".
I'm a bit curious what @Andrew_Critch meant when he used the "«" marker.
I believe I'm abiding by the definition inherent to his sequence, but anyone is free to convince me otherwise.
(Please also let me know if I've violated some norm about naming conventions.)
I've decided to use "«boundaries»" instead of "boundaries" because "boundaries" colloquially refers to something that's more like "Hey you crossed my boundaries, you're so mean!" (see this post for examples), and while I think that these two concepts are related, I find them extraordinarily confusing to consider simultaneously (because "crossing 'boundaries'" does not imply "crossing «boundaries»"), so I try to be explicit as possible with the use.
In the future I plan to use that word as little as possible because of this, but unfortunately that's the name of the sequence.
But "Boundaries [technical]" could do…
LW is somewhat opinionated about how to do tags. (This doesn't mean there's a hard-and-fast-rule, just that when we're evaluating what makes good tags and considering whether to re-organize tags, the mods reflect on the entire experience of the LW userbase). Generally, we want tags that are "neither too narrow nor too broad".
In this case, if there were other people writing about boundaries-in-a-technical-sense which for some reason was notably different from Critch's definition, and there were some people (maybe just Critch, maybe Critch-plus-a-few-collaborators) who specifically wanted to focus on his definition, then having two tags would make sense. By guess is that anyone writing about boundaries-in-a-technical-sense would end up with a definition similar to Critch's, and there should be just be one tag for all similar work, and the '«' symbol doesn't make sense for the tag.
Ok, I will rename the tag from "«Boundaries»" to "Boundaries [technical]". Fwiw I consider both strings as referring to the same concept, but I see how it might be weird to use «».
I have just updated the post to add more details about Mark Miller’s Object-capabilities model.
Today I've slightly updated the post to reflect what I think will be less-confusing terminology for this concept going forward.
Here are some more posts which might be also related, but less obviously so. I will leave them in this comment for now, but feel free to argue me into including or excluding any of these.
Also, lmk if anything else should be linked in the main post.
In this post I outline every post I could find that meaningfully connects the concept of «Boundaries/Membranes» (tag) with AI safety.[1] This seems to be a booming subtopic: interest has picked up substantially within the past year.
Update (2023 Dec): we're now running a workshop on this topic!
Perhaps most notably, Davidad includes the concept in his Open Agency Architecture for Safe Transformative AI alignment paradigm. For a preview of the salience of this approach, see this comment by Davidad (2023 Jan):
This post also compiles work from Andrew Critch, Scott Garrabrant, Mark Miller, and others. But first I will recap what «Boundaries» are:
«Boundaries» definition recap:
You can see «Boundaries» Sequence for a longer explanation, but I will excerpt from a more recent post by Andrew Critch, 2023 March:
Also, beware:
Update: see Agent membranes and causal distance for a better exposition of the agent membranes/boundaries idea.
Posts & researchers that link «Boundaries» and AI safety
All bolding in the excerpts below is mine.
Davidad’s OAA
Saliently, Davidad uses «Boundaries» for one of the four hypotheses he outlines in An Open Agency Architecture for Safe Transformative AI (2022 Dec)
Further explanation of this can be found in Davidad's Bold Plan for Alignment: An In-Depth Explanation (2023 Apr) by Charbel-Raphaël and Gabin:
Also:
Also see this comment by Davidad (2023 Jan):
Reframing inner alignment by Davidad (2022 Dec):
I’ve also collected all of Davidad’s tweets about «Boundaries» into this twitter thread.
Update 2023 May: I've written a post about how Davidad conceives of «boundaries» applying to alignment: «Boundaries» for formalizing a bare-bones morality.
Update 2023 August: Davidad explains this most directly in A list of core AI safety problems and how I hope to solve them:
Update 2024 Jan 28: See Davidad's reply to this comment about specific examples of boundary violations.
Andrew Critch
Andrew Critch has written «Boundaries» Sequence with four posts to date:
Critch also included «Boundaries» in his plan for Encultured AI (2022 Aug):
And most recently, Critch wrote Acausal normalcy (2023 March):
Scott Garrabrant
Andrew Critch connects «Boundaries» to Scott Garrabrant’s Cartesian Frames (in Part 3a of his «Boundaries» Sequence):
See Cartesian Frames (Intro) (2020 Oct) for a related formalization of the «Boundaries» core concept.
Note: See this summary by Rohin Shah for a conceptual summary of Cartesian Frames.
Scott Garrabrant also wrote Boundaries vs Frames (2022 Oct) which compares the two concepts.
Note: I suspect Garrabrant’s work on Embedded Agency (pre- Cartesian Frames) and Finite Factored Sets (post- Cartesian Frames) are also related, but I haven’t looked into this myself.
Mark Miller
Mark Miller, Senior Fellow at the Foresight Institute (wiki), has worked on the Object-capability model, which applies «boundaries» to create secure systems (computer security). The goal is to make sure that only the processes that should have read and/or write permissions to a resource have those permissions. This can then be enforced with cryptography.
Other researchers interested:
John Wentworth (@johnswentworth)
John Wentworth lists boundaries in a comment addressing “what's my list of open problems in understanding agents?”:
He also wrote in this comment that he considers boundaries to be prerequisite for understanding ‘agenty’ phenomena (2023 Apr).
Also see: Content and Takeaways from SERI MATS Training Program with John Wentworth: Week 4, Day 1 - Boundaries Exercises (2022 Dec) where the «Boundaries» concept is used as a SERI MATS training exercise.
[There is likely to be other content I’ve missed from John Wentworth.]
Vladimir Nesov (@Vladimir_Nesov)
Miscellaneous connections
I’ve also created a “Boundaries [technical]” tag, and tagged all of «Boundaries»-related[2] LW posts I could find.
What I may have missed
There are surely many topics which I haven’t yet looked into which deserve to be linked in this post. I have noted those that I think are likely to be related below.
If you know of any other posts I should link in this post, let me know and I’ll add them.
Closing notes
I’m personally extremely excited about this topic, and I will be covering further developments.
I am also writing several more posts on the topic. Subscribe to my posts and/or the boundaries [technical] tag to get notified.
Please contact me with any «Boundaries»-related tips, ideas, or requests.
Post last edited: 2023-05-30.
Here's why I use the word "membranes" as opposed to "boundaries": "Membranes" is better terminology than "boundaries" alone.
(«Boundaries»/boundaries [technical]-related posts, not necessarily “boundaries”-related posts.)