Related to: Best career models for doing research?, (Virtual) Employment Open Thread

In the spirit of offering some practical real world advice, let's talk about employment rationality. Let’s talk about optimal employment.1

You're young, smart, and hoping to have a positive impact on the world. Maybe you finished college, maybe you didn't. You want to pay your bills but also have time to pursue your intellectual goals. You want a low-stress job that doesn't leave you drained at the end of the day. And it would be nice to earn lots of extra money, because whatever you value, money tends to be a good way to get it.

And it is possible to find easily obtained, low-stress jobs with flexible hours that allow you to save as much money as someone in the USA making $100,000/yr... if you leave the USA to look for them.

Your instinctive reaction is probably that there’s no free lunch, so I must be mistaken or dishonest. And while you may have the right prior, I hope to persuade you that these jobs exist and tell you how to get one if you're interested.

This, I think, is a special opportunity for rationalists, an illustration that we can get better life outcomes from our investment in rationality - better outcomes such as low-stress jobs that leave us with ample discretionary income and enough free time to pursue whatever else we're interested in, obtained by being willing to break habits and think in numbers.

Employment Biases

First, consider some cognitive biases that may be leading people away from optimal employment.

  1. Status Quo Bias - As a rule, we work the same jobs we worked the day before regardless of whether it's still the best option for us. Almost everyone you know is doing the same thing. So you shouldn't expect to be able to just copy others' behavior and end up with optimal employment. Most people stop searching too soon.
  2. Money Illusion - We reason in terms of nominal salaries rather than in actual buying power. This causes us to chase high nominal salaries ($100,000/yr!) even when those salaries are coupled with an exceptionally high cost of living that decreases our overall buying power.
  3. Ostrich Effect - Regardless of income, the average American ends up paying close to 40% in taxes yet consistently self-reports as paying only 3%. In other words, we tend to ignore or deny obviously negative situations when we feel we can't change them.
  4. Conformity Bias, Herd Instinct, "Keeping Up with the Joneses" - Our mimicking behavior is so hard-wired that maintaining autonomy requires actively guarding against the usual practice of mindlessly working the same sorts of jobs and buying the same sorts of products as other people around us. At Less Wrong, we are not conformists, which is probably a good thing in this case. Americans' revealed preferences indicate that they mostly care about boring things like paying lots of taxes, having fat mortgages, driving 2 cars, and owning 3 televisions.
  5. Commuting Paradox - A recently uncovered bias finds that people will consistently endure unpleasant commutes even when the increased earnings don't compensate for the increased costs. A person with a one-hour commute has to earn 40 percent more money just to be as satisfied with life as someone who walks to work. And no amount of money can erase the cognitive fatigue caused by commute related stress. Koslowsky found that even a short commute or using public transportation is associated with increased blood pressure, musculoskeletal disorders, increased hostility, lateness, absenteeism, and adverse effects on cognitive performance.

So the literature on biases is telling us that the ideal job would be something that few Americans are doing, has high purchasing power at the expense of a high nominal salary, will be taxed less than a US-based job, avoids a commute, and minimizes the costs that eat up a typical American's salary.


Welcome to Australia

The USA is not the best place to earn money.2 My own experience suggests that at least Japan, New Zealand, and Australia can all be better. This may be shocking, but young professionals with advanced degrees can earn more discretionary income as a receptionist or a bartender in the Australian outback than as, say, a software engineer in the USA.

Now I’ll detail how to work abroad in Australia because (1) I did it myself (here's my first paycheck), and because (2) I've met hundreds of people working less desirable jobs in several other countries so I have some basis for recommending Australia in particular.

Quick facts:

  1. Australian dollars are currently worth slightly more than US dollars.
  2. The minimum wage in Australia is $15/hr, with $18.75/hr being a more typical starting salary for someone with a Work and Holiday Visa with no previous work experience.
  3. Employers are required to pay 9% extra beyond your regular wage into a personal retirement account, called superannuation, which you can fully cash out after leaving Australia, even if you aren’t retirement age.
  4. Tax withholdings are fully refundable to foreigners after leaving the country (0% effective tax rate) if you earn less than $6000 and report as a "resident" for tax purposes. If you earn between $6000 and $37,000 and file as a resident, your tax rate is 15% (for every dollar earned over $6000). See the full tax structure here.
  5. Hospitality employers such as resorts and hotels in remote areas like the Australian outback are required to provide heavily subsidized room & board ($75/week) and pay supplemental wages in the form of "district allowances" to all workers.
  6. For reference, I was hired as a bartender in Australia on the spot with no resume, no application, and no interview after openly admitting I had no service experience and couldn't operate a cash register.

So let’s compare and contrast Australia with the US:

  US Australia
Minimum wage $7.25/hr $15.00/hr3
High paying jobs Require advanced degree, hard to get, stressful Require no qualifications, easy to get, little responsibility
Income taxes 21.25% of income4 13% of income5
Housing costs 37.1% of income6 5% of income7
Food costs 13.3% of income6 5% of income7
Transportation costs 16.5% of income (need a car)6 4% of income (airplane tickets, visas)8
Compulsory retirement savings

-7.65% of your income into Social Security
good luck getting that back

+9% extra income paid by employer on top of wages
refundable when you leave the country!


Optimal Employment and Less Wrong

This may be of special interest to Less Wrong because most non-rationalists simply can’t reliably take advantage of this opportunity. They will see it as "too good to be true" or "some sketchy advice from the internet" and move on with their lives. You, on the other hand, can evaluate the evidence and make a decision. This kind of problem, where you must assess probabilities and come to a sound conclusion because immediate feedback is unavailable, is exactly the kind of problem that rationality is good for.

Let's compare the discretionary income you're likely to earn with a stressful $100,000/yr salaried job in the USA to the discretionary income you're likely to earn with a laid-back $39,000/yr job in Australia. Our time frame will be one year.

USA: In a $100,000/yr position, your top end tax braket is 28%, but after taking the "standard deduction" and accounting for the tiered tax structure, your effective income tax rate is only 21.25%. In our target age range of 25-34, you're likely to spend 37.1% of your income on housing (breakdown: 23.3% on rent, 7% on utilities, 6.8% on misc housing expenses), 13.3% on food, 16.5% on transportation, and 7.65% on social security payroll taxes. For convenience sake, we'll call the remaining portion of your income - 4.2% - your discretionary income. 4.2% of $100,000 is $4,200.

Australia: In a $39,000/yr position as a bartender or receptionist in the Australian outback, you'll pay 13% in taxes but immediately gain back 9% by cashing in your employer-provided retirement benefits upon leaving the country. Because room and board is heavily subsidized in the outback, you'll pay only 5% for housing and 5% for three excellent meals a day. You'll be commuting on foot because you'll live by the hotel or resort that you work at so the only transportation you'll need is a couple airplane tickets and legal documents, which will cost about 4% of the $39,000 yearly salary. That leaves you with a stagering 83% of your income as true discretionary income, or $32,370!

So working in Australia at a laid-back job with no responsibilities will likely earn you significantly more discretionary income than working at a hard-to-get, stressful, "high-paying" US job. In addition to the personal enjoyment of traveling to Australia, working at a resort in the outback will provide you with a comfortable living situation where all your bills are paid for, all your housing and meals are provided for you, you have no commute and you can enjoy 83% of your $39k salary as discretionary income.

On the other hand, a typical year working a stressful $100k/yr job in the US, if you’re highly-qualified and fortunate enough to land one, will mostly create value for the US government, real estate owners via your rent payments, oil producing nations whenever you fill up your car to commute to work, and retailers such as WalMart who provide household necessities from overseas suppliers. You definitely "create value" by earning that $100k and then immediately blowing it all back out into these giant economic sectors, but are you really executing your own values, or just the values of those around you? Assuming you're not a tax, rent, and car payment enthusiast, this arrangement is probably sub-optimal. That's why you need to learn...


How to Work in Australia

In six steps:

  1. Find an Australian hospitality job (or wait until you arrive; see below).
  2. Make sure you have a passport.
  3. Apply for a Work and Holiday visa.9
  4. Fly to Australia to start working and saving.
  5. Apply for an Australian tax file number.
  6. Open a bank account.

Though you may want to "play it safe," most of the jobs available in the Australian outback will not be listed online. My own recommendation is to skip step 1 and don't get a job lined up ahead of time. Fly to Alice Springs in May when the high season for hospitality jobs is starting to pick up, check into a hostel for a few nights, and look through the physical job boards. The person at the front desk of any hostel will be able to tell you where they are. That's what everyone I met working in Australia actually did to land jobs.

Or, if this sounds too overwhelming, have someone else do the planning for you. The site Oz Work Visa was founded by a fellow LWer (who went to Australia after reading this post) to help other optimal philanthropists and rationalists have a smoother time planning their working holiday abroad in Australia. I definitely recommend the services.

 

Conclusion

Of course, each person must assess the expected utility of this opportunity for themselves. Maybe you have a child or significant other you can't leave behind. Maybe you live with your parents, so you aren't spending much on housing or food in the US, and therefore staying in the US is the quickest way to build up discretionary income. Maybe the math above doesn't work for your particular situation. The USA's financial incentive system is extremely complex and, in the words of Kotlikoff & Rapson, "bizarre."

I don't mean to say that this opportunity will be best for the average Less Wrong reader who is single and in his or her 20s. But I do want to present one particular opportunity that may offer more optimal employment than whatever you're currently doing for a paycheck. I'd also like to suggest that in general, optimal employment might not be found in your home country.

 

Here's me enjoying some optimal employment in Australia:

Me, working at an Australian bar

 

Common Concerns

Q: This sounds too good to be true. How could there be this wage and cost of living imbalance? Shouldn’t the efficient market conspire to eliminate this huge pile of "free profit"?

A: The efficient market hypothesis assumes that humans collectively converge on rational beliefs. But most humans aren’t strategic enough to take advantage of an opportunity like this. They’re on a treadmill from high school to college to a nominally "high-paying" USA-based job + spouse + 1.5 children + dog. The thought of working outside their own country or outside of the field they got a degree in never seriously occurs to them, no matter how smart they are. Also, many people currently believe that working abroad is a bad idea simply because the best opportunities that existed 5 years ago (teaching English, peace corps) actually were bad economic opportunities.

 

Q: So how come all my smart friends aren't doing this?

A: Americans couldn't get these work visas until 2007. Since then, less than 8,000 Americans have taken advantage of the program. Your odds of knowing an American aged 18-30 who went to Australia and did this are very low. By comparison, over 170,000 British citizens aged 18-30 went to Australia just in the last 5 years via a nearly identical visa program. Basically, if you're living in the UK, or lots of other countries in Europe or Asia, the evidence is already beating you upside the head that working in Australia is a great way to save money. You already know several people in real life who can stand in front of you and tell you how great it was for them. I predict that working in Australia after college will be a trendy option for Americans in a few more years, but until it's completely obvious to everyone, you'll actually have to look at the evidence and be rational enough to process it without immediately rejecting the idea just because it sounds amazing.

 

Q: Won’t working in Australia prevent me from gaining experience in my narrow professional sub-field, thus reducing my total lifetime earning power?

A: This is almost certainly not the case for anyone under 30. Companies pay professionals more based on their abilities and their age as opposed to their actual years of experience. And, they pay more for older professionals than young ones just starting out cause they know these people really do have higher expenses and are less likely to quit. So taking a year off in your 20s to work abroad is only exchanging a year in which you would have earned the lowest salary you’ll ever have during your career for a year of higher earning power in Australia. You can always come back to your career in a year and pick up where you left off. Besides; who follows a straight-up-the-ladder career path anymore? Almost nobody.

 

Q: What about Australian culture? Will I like it over there?

A: Australia is a highly educated, robustly secular, extremely developed country. If you have any questions about the desirability of Australia, just ask Less Wrong! A disproportionate number of Less Wrongers are Australian.10

 

Q: I'm really bad at following instructions. What are the biggest mistakes I could make?

A: Don't make the mistake of settling down to work in Sydney, Melbourne or any other major Australian city. Those places all have exceptionally high costs of living, fewer job opportunities, no housing and meal benefits, and predictably lower pay. Make sure you travel to a remote area of Australia like I suggest. Go to the outback near Alice Springs or at least outside Darwin or Perth if you read up on it yourself and know what you're doing. Also, I recommend going to Australia in May when hiring is strongest. April can work too. June and July will work also.  Just don't go in February or March when people aren't hiring yet. One last tip: it's very expensive to be a tourist in Australia (how do you think you're being paid so much?) so I recommend that if you want to combine this opportunity with a vacation for yourself, fly to Bali or somewhere else in Southeast Asia where your money will go 10x further.

 

Q: It says the $295 Visa application fee is non-refundable. What if I apply for the Work and Holiday Visa and then I don't get it?

A: Did you read through the eligibility requirements to make sure you qualify? If you meet their requirements, you'll get it. Australia rubber-stamps American Visa applications. They're working hard to admit as many of us as possible since so few Americans apply to vacation or work in Australia and they want us to be better represented. The application is painless and I was issued my visa in less than 24 hours.

 

Notes

1 Many thanks to lukeprog for his help in writing this article.

2 Note to international readers living outside the US: Although I write much of this from the perspective of an American considering the possibility of working abroad, you can easily substitute “the UK” or any other first-world nation wherever I say “America” or “the US”.

3 Australian minimum wage is $15/hr AUD. Right now, the exchange rate between AUD and USD is basically equal.

4 Approximate, based on the third tax bracket in the year 2011. See the USA rates here, but note that these are nominal tax rates. The actual tax rate is lower due to the standard deductions.

5 An estimate, assuming you file as a resident for tax purposes and earn between $6,000 and $37,000. You are taxed at 0% for the first $6,000 earned, and at 15% for your earnings between $6,000 and $37,000. See here for the details.

6 See the 25-34 year-old age bracket from the latest Consumer Expenditure Survey.

7 Of course, this depends on how much you make, and is assuming you use the highly subsidized room and board offered to you in the Australian outback.

8 My real world costs of going to/from Australia:

$1166 round-trip ticket SFO - MEL (skyscanner.com)

$196 MEL - ASP (tigerairways.com)

$235 Work and Holiday visa

This might look like a lot of money if you’re not currently working or if you’re a broke college grad, but it only takes about 2 weeks on the job in Australia to earn back the cost of emigration, repatriation, and valid work papers.

9 Australian “Work and Holiday” visas are only available to those 18-30. If you’re almost 31, you can still apply for the visa now, have it issued before you turn 31, and then travel to Australia after you turn 31.

10 Based on traffic data for Less Wrong.

Optimal Employment
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The math here is extremely misleading.

You used the average figures from a dataset of people making an average of about $55,000 a year for the US figure. That is, the people who spend 37% of their income on housing is from people making about half of the amount you hypothesize someone making. Since you can live in the same apartment, eat the same food, and so forth (with some exceptions depending on locale), that gives you another ~$38,000 in post-tax income in the US. You also ignore benefits (and promotion opportunities) and things like expense accounts, which can be substantial.

You are also comparing unlike people: one is an average American citizen, who probably has kids and a high discount rate, the other is an individual free to travel to another country specifically searching for a high disposable income job. The fact that the average American does worse is largely irrelevant, because the hypothetical person you're advising is already not-average.

It may well be a great idea to work abroad for a few years; it does sound fun and that's a lot of disposable income for limited skill. But if you're going to make a point with numbers, at least make a cursory effort to use plausible numbers and compare relevantly similar people, or at least admit that you're failing to do so.

[-]Louie160

These costs match my own cost of living when I was working full-time in the US as a highly-paid software engineer. So you could look at both columns as Louie2006 vs Louie2010 if you want to make it an apples-to-apples comparison.

Also, it's an established fact that people spend a constant fraction of their income on housing no matter how much income they have in the US. Look at the reference for my cost data. Groups with wildly different incomes all the way from $25k/yr to $80k/yr all spend between 32-37% of their income on housing. So until I see research showing me otherwise, I stand by my use of fractional income costs of living for housing, transportation, and food budgets.

Groups with wildly different incomes all the way from $25k/yr to $80k/yr all spend between 32-37% of their income on housing.

This simply indicates that as people get richer, they demand better housing. I live in Manhattan. I could get the same apartment if I go on to be an associate at a law firm making $165k a year or a public defender making $50k. However, if I'm doing the former, I'm probably going to spring for a nicer apartment. If my primary goal were saving money, as is implied in your job comparison, I could easily live in the PD's apartment on an associate's salary.

The fact that most people who can save big on housing choose not to is not applicable in your hypothetical; to the extent that it is, more expensive housing implies higher quality of life.

The numbers you quoted are averages for each ten-year demographic between 25 and 75, plus the tails. There's no mention of variance, and I would expect someone employing rationality techniques to manage their finances to be an outlier.

Personal anecdote: My own finances as well as those of six of my friends fall well outside those bands, with housing costs around 13-23% of income. We're all highly-paid software engineers between the ages of 25 and 30, and none of us have families.

Edit: I forgot to include utilities, so my friends in NYC actually edge the housing cost range up to 23% or so.

4Louie
Bravo! Your housing budget is quite remarkable. I wasn't able to do so well myself back when I was working full-time in the US as a software engineer. Do you track your finances with Quicken or some other software? Could you calculate your remaining income from 2010 after subtracting out taxes, rent, housing, transportation, and food? It must be much higher than the 4% a typical American in your position has left. I'd be curious what the best case real world numbers are for people in your situation who are doing their best to optimize. Also, I'm assuming you aren't just taking money out of your housing budget and directing it into an expensive car right? If you don't mind me asking, what are you directing your excess income towards?

It must be much higher than the 4% a typical American in your position has left. I'd be curious what the best case real world numbers are for people in your situation who are doing their best to optimize.

Which was on response to:

Personal anecdote: My own finances as well as those of six of my friends fall well outside those bands. (Emphasis added.)

You still seem to be missing the point. Statistical averages, even in percentage form, cannot be blindly projected across the entire income scale. Someone making $1M a year does not spend the same percentage on food as someone making $40k.

And what does it matter if he takes money out of his housing budget and directs it towards an expensive car? The point of disposable income is that you get to spend it on things you want. That includes nicer housing, restaurant meals, and fancy cars, the value of which is ignored in your calculations.

I track my finances directly in a CoffeeScript source code file and use a simple home-brewed software library to compute my net liquid assets and (when necessary) my estimated tax payments and projected tax liabilities. You've reminded me that I really should be using something like Quicken for finer-grained analysis, so I'll look into that and post my numbers later this week (edit: one second thought, it doesn't seem worth the extra friction).

My living costs followed a general upward trend that leveled off in late 2009, but my salary data is extremely messy for several reasons:

  • I had no grasp of what I was worth until 2007.
  • I had no interest in anything beyond emergency savings until mid 2009, and preferred to gamble on startup equity being worth something, reasoning that I was in my twenties and had plenty of time to settle down later.
  • I was too personally attached to the startup I worked at until early 2010.

It's hard to imagine changing my past since it'd mean giving up several of my current friendships, but the decisions I made in reality were emphatically the wrong ones from a financial perspective: I worked at-cost for six years and left several hundred thousand dollars of... (read more)

5gjm
I think LukeStebbing has long since left LW, but I was just reading the comments on this old post and was struck by his first paragraph: I'm sure it's just coincidence, but it made me smile.

Also, it's an established fact that people spend a constant fraction of their income on housing no matter how much income they have in the US.

It's an established fact that people who live in the US don't suddenly decide to spend a year in Australia. Therefore, your plan fails, it just doesn't happen.

6Costanza
Respectfully, I do not understand what your comment means. I didn't think the author of this post thought that even 5% of the 300 million or so Americans would try to move to Australia any time time soon. But some much smaller fraction of Americans do, maybe even suddenly. The author of this post has offered facts to suggest that this could be rational for some people. For those people, how does this plan simply not happen?
[-]saturn190

Vladimir was being sarcastic, because Louie dismissed the possibility of optimizing one's expenditures.

Louis is contrasting his personal experience with both his personal experience and demographic averages. What Louis did is not average; and there are other outliers who are not spending 32-37% of their income on housing. In fact, when he suggests moving to the outback he is simply rephrasing a suggestion of "spend less on housing". Moving to the outback and getting a job as he describes is one way of doing that. Living under a bridge and showering at your gym every morning might be another.

2Louie
I'm sure you didn't mean it, but your comment strikes me as pretty harsh. Could you explain what you mean?

He is attempting to equate the micromanagement of optimal spending practices within a US city environment and culture with the big leap to go ahead and move to the Australian outback. Neither or these things tend to happen so he claims the right to say 'you too' on your 'fail by default' point.

Unfortunately this obscures or ignores the critical insight into human psychology that you allude to here with respect to setting up 'succeed by default' scenarios, particularly with respect to choosing critical culture and environmental factors.

2Vladimir_Nesov
If we are constructing advice for typical Americans, then this post presents good advice. But the target audience is stated to be the people who can follow counterintuitive pieces of reasoning, which is why insights into human psychology that oppose explicit reasoning shouldn't be the issue (for the stated goal). From the post:
4wedrifid
There nevertheless remains an enormous difference between the big, perhaps drastic but more importantly intrinsically decisive changes to environment and a commitment to try to resist cultural and environmental pressures as they are currently experienced. Both are big hurdles but their nature is very different. Once they have made the choice to make the drastic decision they will succeed by default. Once someone has made a choice to try to resist ongoing cultural pressures they could perhaps succeed by the application of ongoing injunction by the rational part of their mind. I still don't particularly recommend moving to the outback and working in customer service. You will 'succeed by default' at doing something that isn't all that desirable anyway. :)

I had a fairly similar response. I spent $900/mo. on rent when I was making $33k, and I am now spending $600/mo. while making $92k. Obviously whether or not someone spends a constant fraction of their income on housing is an individual decision, just as whether or not someone heads to Australia is.

I'm actually really shocked that you spent more than 95% of a $100k+ income. Even on a $24k student salary I managed to save around $6k/yr., and indulging in all the luxuries I care for I spend less than 35% of my current after-tax pay. I don't feel like I've ever had to "micromanage" my finances or spend more than a few extra minutes a week to do this.

7Vladimir_M
datadataeverywhere: The trouble is that students (including graduate students) have ways to live extremely cheaply while maintaining reasonably high status. For people who are beyond that stage in life, either because they're too old or because they have families, there are no such options. As a general rule, unless you're living in the middle of nowhere, housing costs are very high in all places nice enough to provide a respectable middle class environment for raising kids. Even if you don't have kids, pursuing cheap living options beyond a certain age tends to signal low class and/or disreputability.
6datadataeverywhere
Your point is well taken. Not only do I not have children or dependents, and not only am I still somewhat in "grad student mode", but I plan on eventually going back to school, so I don't really intended to leave that mode before then. In fact, I probably have an even more extreme form of this condition. I've never been too bothered too much by signaling low status, but I've actually been pained when I signal high status. My first (and only) car bothered me because while I bought it extremely cheaply, it was still in good shape. I feel like I ought not to be driving a vehicle that has working door handles, heating and A/C. My car certainly doesn't signal high-status, but it doesn't signal low-status as strongly as I'd like. All of that said, the idea of spending 95% of a $100k salary does not sound instrumentally rational at all even if status is a highly-held value. I object a bit to My parents together usually made less than $20k/yr. while I was growing up (usually fluctuating around the poverty line). I don't know how much they spent on housing (probably a large fraction of that), but I went to an expensive private high school (on scholarship, of course) and didn't mind bringing home friends that came from $250k income families. I really don't think my housing situation was bad even to their tastes, and it certainly isn't somewhere I'd mind raising my kids.
0diegocaleiro
So as not to forget considering different options, multiple locality can be a weird-funny-cheap option to save part of those 32% for a while. Consider for instance hospitality exchange websites, where I have met people who lived for 100 days with 90 dollars while travelling with internet access... But most importantly, working remotely has been one of Tim Ferriss most interesting suggestions, and I really want to know if anyone here has actually tried to do what he did online. So I posted this in Discussion: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/448/on_the_effectiveness_of_ferriss/
0[anonymous]
I, for one, would much prefer a single really good argument to a bunch of pretty-good arguments all scattered about. I think your post would be much more persuasive if you removed the stuff that people object to and put in more solid reasoning.
7shokwave
The minimum wage point alone is probably enough maths, honestly. The hypothetical person here is far more likely than the average American citizen to be on or near minimum wage.
8katydee
I'm not sure if that follows. Why do you believe that?
7erratio
Because it's possible to live extremely comfortably on the minimum wage here as long as you don't have dependents. This creates a disincentive towards going out and getting a higher paying job that requires far more actual work. eg. Last year I was covering my costs of living in Sydney by working three days a week at minimum wage and was still able to go out to nice restaurants and so forth fairly regularly.
5katydee
Ah, okay. My mistake-- I thought shokwave's "here" referred to LessWrong as a whole, not Australia.
4shokwave
The people I know who are similar to the results in the survey linked in the top level post are disproportionately on minimum wage or near minimum wage jobs - particularly casual or part-time.
3jsalvatier
Not to mention that a high minimum wage suggests it might be hard to find a minimum wage job.

It does suggest that. The unemployment rate far more strongly suggests the opposite.

7David_Gerard
For the curious: One of the reasons why the wages in Australia seem so high is because Australia largely dodged the credit crunch, having put suitable controls on its financial sector well ahead of time. So the currency has stayed up - particularly compared to the USD, which has gone down the toilet. Conditions may equalise with time, but right now there's a huge discrepancy. (I moved from Australia to London when the AUD was worth half what it is now, when it was about AUD$3 to GBP£1.)
1jsalvatier
Ah yes, I forgot that Australia largely avoided the current recession, that explains a large part of it.
4David_Gerard
And to make it stranger - cash register prices (food, etc.) in AUD have approximately doubled in the last ten years, the time in which the dollar has grown to twice the size. So in USD or GBP, stuff has gone up in price by about four - but it doesn't feel like 4x in Australia. We have a pile of first-world economies that are not in fact all that closely coupled, except when two countries both do similar stupid things, e.g. letting the financial sector run rampant.
7jsalvatier
FWIW, the idea that "letting the financial sector run rampant" was the cause of the current recession is not uncontroversial. I and others think poor monetary policy is much more to blame.
0[anonymous]
Here I was thinking those two factors were reasonably closely related.
0[anonymous]
I agree. It's foolish not to "back" your money with paperclips held unredeemable in an impenetrable fortress.
-6David_Gerard
-9Petro
[-]Petro500

Given that I'm an American currently living (and working) in the Outback, well there's some flaws in your argument.

There is a lot of employment opportunities here (Alice) because LOTS of people leave after a couple years here. They do that for a reason.

There are basically two economic drivers in this area--tourism and The Base (I'm neither a gardener nor a cleaner, I'm a sprinkler head technician). The Base mostly brings in Americans with very high clearances to do gardening and cleaning, and spends a significant amount of money in Alice for related goods and services.

Tourism is largely due to it's proximity to Uluru/Ayers Rock, and, well, being the only sizable "city" for, well, Darwin is about 1500k north of here, and Adelaide 1500k south.

Alice is a town of about 26k residents. Small town. Very small.

EVERYTHING here, except (oddly enough) pecans, is more expensive than I was paying back in St. Louis MO.

Gas is something like 1.30 a liter. A case of Strongbow is ~50 AUD. A 700ml of Makers Mark is about 40 AUD. Some of the costs are hard to map because GST is 10% and included you don't notice it, you just see it's more expensive, so you really have to keep that in mi... (read more)

5Hul-Gil
So if I obtain high security clearances (how?), and have experience as a gardener or janitor or some such job... I can clear $100K/year by working at U.S. bases in Afghanistan?!
3lukeprog
Great details, thanks.
2Psy-Kosh
Hey, are you still in Alice?

I honestly think that this is a very good reality check. I don't think that most people should do it, as I think that there are many better options in the US, but I definitely think that anyone who doesn't feel that they have better options than the one Louie is describing, for instance, anyone who thinks that they are trying to make money but doesn't find that they can save $20K in a year, really should do it or ask themselves some serious questions about why they don't.

I don't expect anyone to do this, because I think people including people here have almost no tendency to actually act in ways that are theoretically more rational. I hope that rather than confabulating reasons whey they don't though, people reading this can at least acknowledge the size of the gulf between their actual motivational structure and their story about it.

I think that there are many better options in the US,

Anything that will subsidise or cover your living costs while paying you a non-paltry wage (so something like the Army, or oil-rigs, or work in a remote area - surveying?) should be on the same order of magnitude as this idea. And it may be easier to get such a job in America rather than moving to Australia.

I think people including people here have almost no tendency to actually act in ways that are theoretically more rational

Truthful over basically every non-trivial situation I can think of. Once EY's book is published this website should focus more heavily on instrumental rationality. Developing at least sequence-quality posts on that topic would be valuable.

You're not writing my book, so why not start posting on it now? (As indeed many are already doing.)

7shokwave
Good point. I was thinking of the book as being a capstone or some end-of-the-road marker on the subject of epistemic rationality - like once it was published, LW could say "that's that" and focus on something else. In retrospect, that is trying to make the world look like a story.
7Louie
I suggest easy, low-stress occupations like working at resorts because high-stress reduces cognitive performance... and many Less Wrongers want to do research or other intellectual pursuits when they aren't working. For this reason, I think joining the Army or working on an oil rig is an inferior choice.
4datadataeverywhere
Joining an army, particularly the US Army, risks a very stressful situation, but I don't think there's much stress unless one gets deployed. All of my friends in the military have commented on how boring their days are when home, and most "work" (required gym time, inspections) only a few hours a day. On the other hand, I don't think joining the Army is quite as general as your proposal anyway. Unlike hotels in Australia, the Army is suspicious of overqualification and is unlikely to let you in unless you are applying to an officer candidate school. They also don't let one quit quite so easily!
6Kevin
There's almost no reason to join the military for compared to getting paid 3x as much as a major metropolitan police officer.
0datadataeverywhere
I wasn't actually suggesting it! Regardless, I would be really surprised if police officers get to take home three times as much. A $20k salary is pretty small, but given a $12k housing allowance and a $3,500 food allowance plus special tax breaks and deals on everything from meals to airfare, I doubt many first-year police officers are that much better off. If there wasn't a possibility of getting deployed into a war zone, I think it might be an unreasonable choice. Soldiers really don't have to do much, whereas most police officers seem overworked. Socially, I think people have a greater aversion to police officers and more praise for soldiers, though both sentiments apply to both groups. However, the prospect of deployment entirely shifts the balance to finding domestic employ.
3Petro
Police officers in larger cities make decent scratch to start with (IIRC 60k in some areas of California), and then have significant opportunities for overtime and "moonlighting" as security. In some cases there are Bay Area police making over 120k a year. And as far as "soldiers really don't have to do much". Yeah, I don't wanna get banned here, so let's just say you have no idea of what you're talking about.
4datadataeverywhere
Given cost of living adjustments, this is still nowhere near three times as much as soldiers start making. I haven't the faintest idea why you'd get banned for correcting me. I'd be happy to have you give me greater clarity. Here's where what I said comes from: I have a (half) brother and two good friends in the US Army; I of course have several other acquaintances in the Army through them. They report "not having to do anything", and have talked about just hanging out all day on base. One friend is a medic; he works out for three hours a day, mans a medical station (where he reads, since people rarely come in) for another three hours a day, and then goes home. My brother maintains equipment, and I gather has a similarly uneventful schedule; I don't know about my other friend, but he has lots of time on his hands and is usually bored and never stressed about work. My SO's brother-in-law is a newer recruit, and currently deployed; he didn't have nearly as much free time prior to his deployment, but he was in training constantly prior to that. Please note, I'm not talking about danger and fighting! I was talking about a counterfactual world where soldiers are never deployed. This is not our world, and I thought I made it clear that this changes everything! All three men that I'm talking about, and most of their friends have been been deployed for several tours of duty. None of them have significant physical injuries, but all bear serious psychological damage. It's broken their families and torn apart their lives. Each of them knows more people who have committed suicide than I hope to ever know. This is not okay, and not something I recommend as a "low stress" position.
1Michael_Sullivan
You have to be careful with counterfactuals, as they have a tendency to be counter factual. In a world in which soldiers were never (or even just very very rarely) deployed, what is the likelihood that they would be paid (between money and much of living expenses) anywhere near as well as current soldiers and yet asked to do very very little? The reason the lives of soldiers who are not deployed are extremely low-stress and not particularly difficult is because of deployment. They are being healed from previous deployments and readied for future deployments. In the current environment where soldiers are being deployed for much longer periods with much shorter dwell times, it's very likely that the services are doing everything they can to make the dwell time as low-stress as possible. 3 hours at the gym and 3 hours doing a relatively low-stress job in your field sounds like what a lot of people I know who are "retired" do. It sounds like a schedule designed to make your life as easy as possible while still keeping you healthy and alert, rather than falling into depression. In a counter factual world where the army was almost never deployed, they would surely be used for some other purpose on a regular basis, police/rescue/disaster relief/etc. or simply be much much smaller, with pay not needing to be as competitive. We've even experienced this to an extent -- during peaceful times, the active duty military shrinks dramatically, and most of our army is in a reserve or national guard capacity, where they have day jobs, and do not get full time pay from the army unless they are called up to active service. This is still to most accounts a pretty good gig (especially if you use it to get free college tuition) even though it can't replace full time work -- as long as you don't get called up. In fact, I think that's what some of the people my age that I know in the service were expecting when they joined in peacetime. Very rare callups for crucial work they felt oblig
2datadataeverywhere
I agree that this scenario is pretty unlikely; it seems at least possible if there was a high-level policy change that hadn't caught up to military funding and structure, but made active troop deployment very unlikely. Your second to last paragraph disagrees with this; does the US military really shrink that much when we have fewer wars going on? China seems much more the model of a country with a large military that rarely is deployed, and they do seem to match your description; lots of manual labor, disaster relief, building infrastructure, etc., with less competitive pay. I agree that this is the natural balance for a country that's not engaging in wars on a regular basis. This might not have been true, and probably won't be true even once we get back to peace time, but if it was, it seems like a pretty good reason to join, and follows the OPs intention. Still not my recommendation!
2MichaelVassar
I think Bay Area police get over $120k/year fairly quickly and reliably. Like soldier's there's retirement at near fully pay after 20 years, plus full benefits to begin with. Unlike soldiers there's also overtime. Move up the career ladder quickly and work 60-70 hr weeks and it looks like LA cops can make over $300K after a decade's experience by getting up to captain or commander (and advancement is largely IQ based with a typical incoming cop at IQ 100), then retire with over $200K of income after another decade. http://www.joinlapd.com/career_ladder.html I don't have equivalent data for SF on hand, but I think the average in the Bay Area is 6 figures without overtime and without counting benefits.
0shokwave
Same, but I couldn't come up with any low-stress jobs in America that would subsidise your living costs.
[-][anonymous]110

I don't think that most people should do it, as I think that there are many better options in the US...

What, for example?

Police or fire fighter in the San Francisco Bay Area is a low barrier to entry high salary high status job and not very dangerous.

I think small retail is an even better deal than that. Terribly run stores in SF stay in business and well run ones prosper ridiculously.

Many LW readers are coders who could be Google quality if they worked at it a bit, though the outback might be a good place to get practice without distractions.

PUA enthusiasts can obviously make money selling instruction in Game, and should be able to make money in sales in general.

9John_Maxwell
Given that being a good software developer is 3% talent and 97% not being distracted by the internet, whenever possible one should make programming a social activity so one has a social obligation to code. But traveling to a different part of the world to work on something specific sounds like an experiment worth trying. I'm adding it to my list.
7MBlume
Thanks for that. Getting back to work now.
5Will_Newsome
You mean buying an existing business and running it better or starting a new business entirely? Either way, can 70th percentile instrumental rationalist LW folk realistically raise that kind of capital?
2MichaelVassar
Either and 'yep, if they tried at all'. I'll be happy to talk in some detail with people who are actually serious about doing so.
0Kevin
Almost definitely yes if they are old enough to have very good credit and are willing to take on the capital as a personally guaranteed loan. You typically don't get startup type investments (where you aren't personally responsible for losses) for starting or buying a small business.
4jacob_cannell
I'm curious about this one (PUA-instructor) - it seems to be a limited niche (as a specialized personal training service), it's already colonized by early adopters, and it requires artfully developed social skills. But sales - yeah.
4knb
Something pretty similar to Louie's suggestion is working on cruise ships. There is a degree of premium pay because you have to be away from home for so long. And of course they provide you with meals and room and board by necessity.
1gwern
I've only take one cruise in my life (2 or 3 years ago), but I actually got the impression that things were quite the opposite for a lot of cruise ship roles. The cleaning staff seemed to work hard and continually, and our assigned waiter worked his butt off amusing us and serving us, doing a remarkable job (everyone loved him) - as did all the other waiters. The acting troupe on board seemed pretty good to me as they put on multiple complex shows, and so on and so forth. And where I could tell, the workers were quite international, suggesting fierce and widespread competition.
7Psy-Kosh
Well, as far as expecting anyone to do it or not, I just submitted my visa application.
0gwern
What do you plan to work at in Australia?
3Psy-Kosh
A couple possibilities (I'm not yet fully decided). May do at least part of the time what the OP (Louie) did. At least part of the time will be staying with a friend in Adelaide (so, even though not explicitly heavily subsidized housing costs, the housing costs will be shared/divided) so depending what work was available there nearby at the time, that would affect things. Possibly some of the time doing harvest work/grape vine training/etc. (the grape vine training thing was actually suggested by my friend). But I had to submit the visa application right away because in october I hit the age cutoff.
0taryneast
So... how did this go? (Note: for all I know I've met you in person... I'm not good with names/pseudonym matching) :D
7Psy-Kosh
Huh. Actually, reading through this I'm actually considering it. Will need to research it a bit more, but it's definitely something for me to look at. Though I am concerned about what knb noted re tax laws and such. (There is also, as far as longer term concerns, the issue of "distance to nearest cryo group"/"how quickly they can get to you if needed before it's too late")
0taryneast
I'm coming in late to this discussion but... The nearest cryo group will be located in South East Australia... if you have a medical emergency, you'll be evacced to Adelaide - which isn't that far away.

I'd like to raise a "dark arts" objection here. This article is written with a lot of presuppositions, strawman attacks, appeals to character, and other interpersonal but non-rational attempts to convince social humans.

For example, the article leads with "You're young, smart, and hoping to have a positive impact on the world." While that may be true of the majority of less wrong readers, the article does not discuss why these qualities are relevant. In fact, the article suggests ways to have less impact on the world - working through a service position - than other careers (such as existential risk reduction). This leads me to believe that this opening line is nothing more than a compliment intended to endear the reader.

The following wording reads like a sales pitch and is highly suspect: "And it is possible to find easily obtained, low-stress jobs with flexible hours that allow you to save as much money as someone in the USA making $100,000/yr... if you leave the USA to look for them."

A classic promise - easy money, with a small catch. Can you rewrite this is as a description of the work you personally experienced, rather than an ambiguous promise?

You... (read more)

For example, the article leads with "You're young, smart, and hoping to have a positive impact on the world."

Writing in a conversational tone attempting to empathize, establish rapport and maintain interest. That barely even qualifies as grey arts. It is more 'not pretending to be a Vulcan so as to prevent dark arts accusation".

I'm not advocating everything in the original post - it is a good post but far from perfect. But this objection was an (ironic) abuse of the 'dark arts' label and something that I would wish to discourage.

This doesn't pattern-match to a sales-pitch at all. What does Louie stand to gain by you following his advice?

As your post stands, you make six whole paragraphs out of cherry-picked quotes and "this sounds persuasive". Most egregious of all is your conclusion:

There are many ways to optimize one's income and savings rates.

As if this is somehow a point against Louie!

8nuckingfutz
Self promotion is a form of sales. Had this been posted directly on Tim Ferriss's blog, I'd have not noticed a difference in writing style.
1shokwave
How is this self-promotion? Louie makes the argument generally, and then provides a specific example he has on hand (himself), but I'm going to need more evidence than an accusation to believe the purpose of this post was to self-promote.
8Kevin
Why is your way better than Louie's way? It's tone, the writerly voice, which is quite individual. Persuasive writing is in no way automatically dark arts. Though I did tell Louie that this post needed more entertaining anecdotes.
3sakana
Would you care to elaborate on your personal example? You said what you earned, but not how you did it..

I went to an ivy league college, learned an economically scarce skill (IT security), found contract positions that paid a high hourly wage with no clause to continue the work. I was otherwise frugal.

I am not conventionally attractive or charismatic. Louie is. He will find it easier to find work as a bartender without a resume or reference than I will.

0Andi
Assuming 25% in taxes, you lived on 1562.50 a month- including rent, food, utilities, and other luxuries. That is not including taking out SS or health care costs and months of vacation. Where, sir, do you live?!? A one-bedroom where I live and transport 1 hour into work is 1200 a month with utilities adding around 150... that is not even including food, gas, car insurance, rent insurance (or home), plus health care. If I could live somewhere that 1550 or so took care of all of that....
2thomblake
At one point I was living on a bit over $100 a week, in New Haven, CT. The apartment was huge - we paid around $900 a month and split it 4 ways, but we could have fit more people (it was a 4-bedroom, but we were usually couples and used 2 of the bedrooms as extra living space). I took the bus to work for about $35 a month, had to pay part of the electric bill, and the rest went to food and sundries. I relied on cheap staples like rice and tried not to use too much soap at a time.

we'll call the remaining portion of your income - 4.2% - your discretionary income. 4.2% of $100,000 is $4,200.

You optimized spending in the Australia option, but didn't in USA option. Instead, you used typical spending, which is misleading. I wonder how much less one can spend if that is set as a goal, and if you take into account the apparent single/no kids/lives in apartment assumptions of the Australia option.

[-]Louie160

Short explanation:

This is not me being misleading in how I present data. I'm presenting what happens by default in both options, not one optimized and one non-optimized option. What you discovered here is that, the plan to save money in the outback is robust and succeeds by default, while the plan to save money in the US is fragile and fails by default.

The longer explanation:

The Australian outback option isn't optimized. It's an off-the-shelf option that is heavily subsidized and in a bizarrely awesome economic climate... something I don't think many people here knew existed.

I think it's fair to compare a typical US job to a typical outback job because this is what you get when you don't put much effort into optimizing your budget in both cases.

The difference is that the outback is already incredible without you having to do anything.

It's actually pretty unfair to compare an outback working budget to the best-case US scenario where you spend tons of time in the US managing your money well to get the cheapest rent, best car prices, lowest food costs, and execute convoluted tax dodging strategies that most people couldn't figure out. It's a very tricky plan that requires lots of thi... (read more)

What you discovered here is that, the plan to save money in the outback is robust and succeeds by default, while the plan to save money in the US is fragile and fails by default.

But as you noted above, there is a lot of resistance by default to exercising the Australia option. So the Australia plan fails by default too.

Once you've opened the door to considering those rare Americans who might decide to uproot and move to unfamiliar lands across the globe, you might also consider those rare Americans who can manage their money and don't consistently make irrational decisions. In the context of here, I wouldn't doubt they're the same people.

[-]gwern100

But as you noted above, there is a lot of resistance by default to exercising the Australia option.

Every plan has the problem that if you don't execute it, it fails. In this respect, the two are exactly equal. (And in degree, they may not be too far apart - given all one would have to do to carry out the American plan.)

6Louie
Here's a more abstract analogy: Imagine a hypothetical world. Every night, when you fall asleep, you experience the same horrible nightmare. As you sleep, you're approached by different sets of con-men and con-women who do whatever they can to rob you and steal everything you have. This happens every single night. The twist is, the money you're carrying on your semi-conscious, disoriented dream-projected self is actually your real money from your real bank account in your real waking life! Different people carry different amounts on them but most have somewhere between 1/300 to 1/400 of their yearly income on them. To cope with these nightly robberies, most people in nightmare-land ignore their situation. With the small part of their mind that allows them to acknowledge what's happening, they mostly hope that one day they can earn enough money to stop the constant robberies from taking everything they have... not realizing that because they're ignoring the problem completely, the money is actually a fraction of their income and the solution of earning more money will never help them. But the more adept people in this world learn advanced lucid nightmaring techniques. They spend large chunks of their day preparing themselves for their nightmares so they'll remember how not to get robbed. It takes constant vigilance and is incredibly stressful, but it works more and more often over time. These people are still robbed occasionally, but mostly get by with only partial robberies instead of losing everything like their peers. But one day after a couple dozen years, you're offered a chance to leave nightmare land and live in "dreamland" where there are no nightmares. The only catch is that in dreamland, people earn 50% lower nominal salaries. Hmm... if you think you're especially good at navigating nightmares, perhaps you could continue using your nightmaring skills rather than leave? But why would you? Dreamland sounds so much better. Having these nightmares sucks e
[-]gwern210

Don't burn out, Louie. This is Less Wrong, of course there's going to be some pretty intense criticism. It's only worth getting angry if you think you're right but your posts/comments are negative on net.

It seems to me more like folks are pointing out that things aren't all that nightmarish in actuality, and your analysis to show otherwise is flawed. If you would rather make fun than improve your analysis, there are other places on the Internet where that sort of thing is more welcome.

8Vladimir_Nesov
I might even agree with your conclusion, but would point out serious issues with quality of your arguments regardless. Off-the-shelf property, for example, is a good argument for taking it (if no downsides are present for your case) instead of trying to devise a more complicated or less apparent-at-the-moment plan, but not for the absence of alternative off-the-shelf solutions. Instrumental vs. epistemic rationality.

"the plan that lets you save money in the US is a life-engulfing minefield of time-consuming bargin-hunting, self-denial, and tax evasion."

I work as a software developer in the US, have never made a 'budget' for myself or tried to analyze my finaces before now, I pay taxes normally, eat out often, and have no trouble saving lots of money. I'm going to substitute my expenses and pretend I only make 100k and see how much I'd still be able to save (living in Seattle).

Rent: 16.8k instead of 23.2k Utilities: 2k instead of 7k (how can you spend 7k on utilities if you're a single person in an apartment?) Misc house expenses: 0.5k instead of 6.8k (what are these misc expenses that other people supposedly spend so much on?) Food: The estimate of 13.3k is reasonable for food, although it's easy to spend a lot less without hardship. Transportation: 4.6k instead of 16.5k (who spends 16.5k per year on transportation? Just don't buy a new BMW every 5 years and you should be set. I bought my car for $9k, 5 years ago).

Apparently it's pretty easy live well in a large US city and save 33.9k per year without really paying attention to your finances. If you're a good software developer you should be able to make a lot more than 100k and therefore save much more per year.

0taryneast
I spent $5800 on utilities last year... it happens when you live in an area that simultaneously gets below freezing point (and thus you need to spend on heating) and also gets above comfortable living point (and thus you need to spend on fans or air-con). I'm pretty reasonably frugal on both... I don't set the aircon super low, I don't set the heating on high... but utilities are pricey. I also count "internet" as a utility. When I lived in a warmer climate I spent $2800 "Misc house expenses" include things like fixing a broken toilet... or other general repairs. If you're renting you may not have to pay that. Or maybe you do if your landlord is dodgy. I spent around $8K on "transport" - which includes car payments (I bought a new but small hatchback 3 years ago = $22k), fuel, insurance, repairs, servicing and parking costs. I can well imagine that a family with more than one person (and thus more than one car) easily pays twice as much as me.

Spending less than 37% on housing doesn't require

tons of time in the US managing your money well

It requires you make a correct decision once a year or so about renewing the lease. The reason people have little discretionary income is that they habitually commit themselves to spending plans such as five years of a car payment - but that spending plan itself is a choice.

You may have an excellent point about the costs/benefits of your perception of working in the US. I don't think you have much of a point about actually working in the US, and that's what all these comments are getting at. Even at much lower salaries, it isn't that hard to save a lot of money if you care to. (I'll throw in my own data point: my last serious job before law school gave me about 50k a year in disposable income, working 20 hours a week.)

While I'm at it, "time consuming bargain hunting, self-denial, and tax evasion" are all rather prominent parts of your own plan. You're moving across the globe to find cheap living. You're living in the middle of nowhere, with undoubtedly limited access to goods and services. And you're evading paying US taxes (or maybe you actually have to pay them on your return; I don't know). Plus, you're working in a job that has no real benefit for your future career, away from friends and family. I laud the suggestion for people to do something different and potentially lucrative, but methinks you're weighing options on less-than-accurate scales here.

4Vaniver
Strongly disagree. Or, at least, it doesn't seem to apply to the people you're marketing this plan to. I won't go through my expenses, but let's just say that I'm saving money on a grad student's salary, and don't project my annual expenses doing anything more than doubling for the foreseeable future. Except for taxes, pretty much any salary increases for me will go straight to wealth accumulation.
1loqi
...how frequently?
0Vaniver
In real terms? Once. I'm not going to speculate on inflation. There are, of course, plausible scenarios in which my expenses increase much further, but they have a pretty low probability at present.
3Vladimir_Nesov
Opaque potential for devising a plan might look worse in comparison to a specific worked-out plan. But unless you seriously think for enough time about that potential direction for developing new plans, and don't come up with any simple plans, you can't declare your own plan's superiority over the other potential plans. And the argument for this difficulty must reference such effort and rationality of its conduct, ideally should describe the reasoning process that comes to a failure in every considered class of options. You can perhaps point out a particular plan's superiority over the painful process of trying to come up with an alternative plan, so that if the plan is clearly an improvement over status quo you should just take it and skip the thinking-about-alternatives part. This is a good reason, if you don't expect to be able to come up with a sufficiently better alternative plan whose superiority compensates for the effort spent of devising it, but then again your argument should refer to this fact, and not just to status quo. In short, your post is useful, since it gives a constructive lower bound on how good you can do, but your argumentation for it being the thing to do is lacking.
3shokwave
Note that spending on housing and such is optimised because of subsidization. Most Australians will be spending similarly to the American option.

One other question-- if this opportunity is so good, why did you stop doing it?

5mhsiah
Being Australian, I can only relay what I've heard from foreigners that I've met in Australia. With that proviso, I believe that the working holiday visa that Louie was talking about is valid for a maximum of one year, non-renewable. Staying after the term of the visa would require either (i) getting officially sponsored by an Australian company or (ii) marrying an Australian. Even in those two cases, you're likely to be forced to return to your home country to apply for the new visa.
0Bluehawk
As an Australian with an American partner: Australia has slightly different rules about relationships than the U.S. does. Getting married is one way to do it, but if you and your partner live together in an exclusive relationship for the span of a year or two you can be recognised with "de facto" status. It's a legal step between "single" and "married", and it's another legal basis on which you can apply for a longer-term visa in Australia and CAN be done from within Australia. It is, however, just as expensive to travel back to the U.S. and apply for the de facto visa from there (Flights + ~$2k), as it is to apply for the de facto visa from within Australia (~$3k). And of course you need to be able to show that you've been in that relationship for a year or more, and that the relationship is both long-term and stable, which is out of the question for most Work/Holiday visa holders. The de facto visa also gives you the right to live, work and study in Australia for two years, after which if the de facto relationship is still stable, exclusive, etc. you're then eligible for permanent residency.
3wedrifid
Well damn. That's inconvenient. How about "still stable, exclusive and any time we have sex with others it is because we are Bad People and cheating"? ie. It would be a shame if polyamorous people in stable primary relationships were penalized for using different moral vocabulary.
1private_messaging
Well, they aren't exactly going to be checking who you have sex with. I'd guess the exclusive clause is to prevent one person from inviting several in such a manner. That being said, migration law is absolutely despicable in general; i can understand the pragmatic point of operating the developed countries as a rich gated community to keep the proles away, but that doesn't explain why US/Australia/EU migration would need to be encumbered.
2Kawoomba
I'm not exactly up to date on these things, but don't you need a conviction to be sent to Australia?
0matt
There are self-sponsored skilled migrant visas available (which cost more, require more official qualifications, and take longer to process). At least some don't require you to leave the country. (In passing: these visas are several kinds of wrong. My government spends time and money trying to keep clever people out of my country, and requires me to spend time and money to get employees in.)

I think a large contingent on LW would be more interested in what an optimal employment scenario looks like after graduating with a high-value degree. I know I am.

[-][anonymous]250
  • Step 0: Get a high-value degree.
  • Step 1: Get a high-paying job with your high-value degree.
  • Step 2: Save a lot of money. Invest intelligently, but mostly save truckloads of money.
  • Step 3. Profit!

Most people fail at Steps 0 or 2. I think Step 1's the easiest, although in another comment my friend Luke explained an innovative way to fail at it.

Warning: the rest of this comment contains hard numbers. If you're averse to hearing/sharing financial data, stop reading now.

"High-paying" doesn't have to be zillions of dollars, although that would help. I graduated with self-taught C++, a bachelor's degree in computer science, and an accepted job offer. I'm now 27 years old and I've been working for 6.5 years. My income has increased from 74k to 112k. (I'm very lucky - this is more than my father ever made after 25 years of continuous employment.)

I achieved Steps 0 and 1 by luck (I never thought about becoming a programmer before I went to college, and until I was hired I was planning on going to grad school). Step 2, I think, requires the most rationality.

The income effect is your enemy: the more you make, the more you're likely to spend. In my amateur opinion, this has two mai... (read more)

this is my current plan, and I think the step 2 has a variety of methods to it that people fail to use.

  1. acknowledging the treamill that causes you to increase your spending, but hacking it via staying 1-2 raises behind in your living standards.
  2. not moving into higher income areas just because you can, where you will be a small fish in a big pond and exacerbate 1.
  3. focusing on relative (zero-sum) signals of success instead of on having good experiences.
  4. erroneously assuming you will always be able to make at least as much money as you currently do.
  5. not taking direct/real satisfaction in having a large cushion. This can be accomplished by thinking about how many years you can get by without needing to work on your current cushion. This is easier for entrepreneurial types as it is also "how much time I can spend working on my own projects if I find a business opportunity/co-founder".
  6. not setting up systems of investment where you don't even see portions of your income and/or not taking advantage of tax advantaged or employer contribution programs (roth IRA, 401k, etc)
  7. not contributing to SENS :p (many years of mental alertness > few years of mental alertness)

If anyone has anything to add to this list please comment.

7Prismattic
At least in the US, the biggest reason for moving into a higher-income area is because the quality of public schools tends to track the median income ( and schools are funded mainly through local property taxes). If you are already taking --step 0. Do not have children--, then that can probably save you more money than several of these other steps combined. But it's not really helpful advice for the people that do decide to have children.
-1patrissimo
Step 0: Get a time machine Step 1: Go back in time and tell yourself not to waste time on a degree, but to go invent Google or Facebook or something useful Step 2: Profit!
4TheOtherDave
Or perhaps: Step 1: Go back in time, etc. Step 2: Profit! Step 3: Build a time machine and go back to before step 1 and give it to yourself.
[-][anonymous]230

Upvoted. This is really interesting.

I'd very likely not do this myself, though. I've noticed there are two kinds of attitudes toward jobs (and I've seen rationalists of both stripes). Some people really want their career to be an extension of their interests and identity and perhaps their prestige: "I'm a scientist," "I'm an artist," "I'm a programmer," "I'm a doctor," "I'm a teacher," etc. They wouldn't want to make the same money in less time by a different route, they want to work in that particular field.

Some people, on the other hand, basically see their job as a source of income, which they can use to pursue their interests elsewhere. They're optimizing for money and free time, which means they look at a much wider range of money-making possibilities. (The most extreme example would be The 4-Hour Workweek, in which the money comes from a passive income stream, not a "career" at all.)

Your advice is geared more to people in the second category. I'm in the first. That doesn't mean it's not good advice -- if you want money and free time to pursue an interest, then hospitality jobs in the outback sound like a great idea, given your evidence.

I'm curious, though -- does anyone think that one attitude is better than the other? Or is it just a matter of individual preference? Job-as-income-stream, or career-as-personal-identity?