DAVID: [...] Because that's all we can ever have of each other: an imitation, a Copy. All we can ever know about are the portraits of each other inside our own skulls.
LORAINE: Is that all you think I am? An idea in your head?
DAVID: No! But if it's all I have, then it's all I can honestly love. Don't you see that?And, miraculously, she does. She finally understands.
—"A Kidnapping" by Greg Egan
In the comments on "Basics of Rationalist Discourse" (where I am prohibited from commenting), Duncan Sabien writes, concerning my post "Aiming for Convergence Is Like Discouraging Betting", that it's "important to [him] that [I] be understood to not actually be responding to [him], rather than to [my] own strawman".
I don't think I understand the implied semantics of "actually" responding to an author. I don't consider myself any kind of authority on Sabien's views, and don't see myself as attempting to speak on his behalf.
Rather, I consider "Aiming for Convergence Is Like Discouraging Betting" to be responding to the published text of "Basics of Rationalist Discourse"—not Sabien's full private belief-state, which I obviously don't have access to. That is, I was attempting to use language to communicate some thoughts I had that were partially inspired by language that I read in "Basics of Rationalist Discourse".
Where I wasn't sure how to interpret the text because Sabien's thoughts and worldview differ so much from my own, I attempted to explicitly indicate my uncertainty, especially around the concepts of defection/cooperation and good/bad faith, of which I wrote (in the third summary bullet point) "I don't think I understand how these terms are being used in this context" and (in the body of the post) that the meanings "in my vocabulary" and "in my ontology" "don't seem consistent with the way Sabien seems to be using the words." I also included a paragraph "emphasiz[ing] [...] that this discussion is extrapolating a fair amount from the text that was written", and noting that Sabien might be using language differently from me "such that [my] objections don't apply".
It's quite possible that my reading comprehension of the post was poor, either "innocently" or "motivatedly". That is, it could be that a reader might compare my quotation or paraphrasing of "Basics of Rationalist Discourse" to the text of that post, and conclude that my construal of the text was unreasonable, based on how the words would be typically understood by English speakers.
If so, I eagerly welcome corrections: if Sabien or anyone else thinks I've misinterpreted the published text of "Basics of Rationalist Discourse", I encourage them to write a comment explaining the misinterpretation, either on this post, or on "Aiming for Convergence Is Like Discouraging Betting". I furthermore encourage voters to upvote what they see as correct explanations of misinterpretations, and to downvote posts that they believe to contain misinterpretations. Furthermore, if anyone has any specific suggestions for how I might edit the text of the post to correct such misinterpretations, I will happily consider them.
As it happens, I did receive a comment from Sabien contesting a paragraph in which I "suppose[d]" that a speaker who said that he was "not treating [his interlocutor] as a cooperative partner" and was "motivated [...] to raise [his] status at the expense of [theirs]" "would not be engaging in the 'collaborative truth-seeking' that the 'Basics of Rationalist Discourse' guideline list keeps talking about." Sabien said that such a speaker would not be breaking any of the listed guidelines, and described the paragraph as "an excellent demonstration that [I] cannot pass the [Ideological Turing Test] of the post [I thought I was] objecting to, and [was] in fact objecting to a strawman of [my] own construction."
I thanked Sabien for the clarification, adding that I agreed that I wasn't passing his Ideological Turing Test (which I don't think should be required before replying to a post). A few hours later, I asked a followup question: it still wasn't clear to me why my hypothetical speaker wouldn't be violating Sabien's Fifth Guideline. As of the time of the present post's publication, my followup question has not received a reply.
At the time of the present post's publication, I have not edited the text of "Aiming for Convergence Is Like Discouraging Betting", because it's not clear to me that doing so is necessary: in the one case above where I received an explicit objection to the text I wrote, it seems plausible to me that my use of the first person and the verb suppose in the sentence "I suppose such a person would not be engaging in the 'collaborative truth-seeking' that the 'Basics of Rationalist Discourse' guideline list keeps talking about", is sufficient to communicate to a reasonable reader that the sentence refers to my interpretation of the text of "Basics of Rationalist Discourse", and doesn't necessarily represent Sabien's personal judgement of that particular scenario.
After all, how could it? The scenario of "such a person" was something I made up while writing "Aiming for Convergence Is Like Discouraging Betting". I could hardly be expected to have solicited Sabien's feedback on the post in advance of publishing, given that he doesn't seem to want to communicate with me (him having blocked me on Facebook in December 2021, and having blocked me from commenting on his Less Wrong posts).
In consideration of the above, I'm inclined to tentatively reject Sabien's characterization of my post as "objecting to a strawman of [my] own construction". I think if that were true, it would be easy to quote a passage from the text of "Aiming for Convergence Is Like Discouraging Betting" and convincingly explain to the median Less Wrong reader specifically how it mischaracterizes the text of "Basics of Rationalist Discourse", without directly appealing to Sabien's personal judgement, and I don't think this has been done. Less Wrong user Said Achmiz seems to concur with this assessment (writing, "then I read Zack's post, thought 'yep, sounds about right'"), as does Less Wrong administrator Ray Arnold (writing, "I generated an understanding of 5 that was similar enough to Zack's understanding to also nod along with his post and think 'yup, sounds about right'(ish)").
The reason I think an explanation is necessary to sustain a strawmanning allegation, and not just the say-so of an author that a critic is not correctly representing them, is because critics can't be expected to be mind-readers. Sabien writes that's it's possible to "underestimate the corrosive power of a flood of bullshit, and how motivated some people are to produce that flood.". But I suggest this goes both ways: it's also possible to underestimate the corrosive power of people being motivated to categorize things as bullshit in order to escape the obligation to reply to intellectually substantive objections.
It's no doubt true that I don't have a good understanding of Sabien's views, and I don't claim to. Unfortunately, I am not a mind-reader. I don't have direct access to his beliefs. All I have to go on is the text he's published—and if that's all I have, then it's all I can honestly reply to. If Sabien or anyone else disagrees with anything I write, they're welcome to leave a comment explaining why! But I don't see how the strawmanning allegation presently under consideration is credible in the absence of a more specific explanation than has heretofore been provided.
These seem semantically equivalent to me? Duncan's description of me as "enthusiastically leap[ing] to recalcitrant strawmanning" would seem to suggest they're equivalent in his usage, too?
Hm, maybe I shouldn't have said "easy." I think I want to claim that "The critic is misunderstanding me" is something an author can credibly claim without an explanation (because the author is presumed to be a privileged authority on what their ideas are), but "The critic is strawmanning me" is an accusation that needs an explanation in order to be credible?
(But this position is somewhat awkward insofar as it implies that strawmanning is a crime that can't be discussed literally; I never expect to say "I think he's strawmanning me, but I can't prove it" the way I would sometimes say "I think he's lying, but I can't prove it." Interestingly, I don't have this intuition about the word "mischaracterize"!)
Maybe some concrete examples will help? (Sorry that these are "political", specifically gender-political; it's what I've been working on for the past few years.)
Example 1. In "Challenges to Yudkowsky's Pronoun Reform Proposal", I accused Yudkowsky of "haughtily implying that people like [Barra] Kerr [the author of "Pronouns Are Rohypnol"] are making an elementary philosophy mistake that they are clearly not making"—namely, thinking that use of gender-identity-based pronouns constitutes "lying"—"if you actually read what they write." (I didn't use the specific word "strawman", but it's essentially the same complaint.)
I think I adequately support that accusation to my readers: I cited Kerr as a representative example of opponents of gender-identity-based pronouns, quoted text from Kerr's article to demonstrate that she wasn't just simplistically calling pronouns "lies", and pointed out that the article was frequently referenced as evidence that Kerr really was a representative example.
Example 2. In Ozy's criticism of my criticism of "The Categories Were Made for Man, Not Man for the Categories", Ozy claimed that I "argue[d] for the existence of a third definition [of gender], based on psychology", and claimed that my position implied that "any group of women whose interests and personality traits, on average, observably differ from that of women as a whole ought to be classified as not actually women at all" which would imply that lesbians aren't women, reductio ad absurdum.
I thought Ozy's post was quite bad, and very much failed to understand my position. I did not accuse them of stawmanning or similar, but if I were to make such an accusation, I would support that to my readers by pointing out that nowhere in the text of my post did I say that I wanted to define gender based on psychology, and that the text of my post explicitly anticipated and replied to the subgroup-different-from-women-as-a-whole objection in the paragraph starting with "To this it might be objected that [...]".
Contrast of Examples 1 and 2 to the present case. I think it's important that in both these cases where I either accused a critic of strawmanning or have explained how I would have done so, I provided an explanation of how the actual text the critic actually published substantively mischaracterizes the actual text the criticism-target actually published. I would not expect readers to just take my word for it; I tried to make it easy for a reader who doubted me to read the quotes for themselves and confirm for themselves whether my explanation made sense, and if someone did question my explanation, I would expect to be able to satisfactorily answer them.
I don't think Duncan has met this standard, of providing a satisfactory explanation for how the text of "Aiming for Convergence Is Like Discouraging Betting" substantively mischaracterizes the text of "Basics of Rationalist Discourse." As I explained in this post, in the one case where Duncan objected to the text of "Aiming for Convergence", he said that the scenario I posed "doesn't break any of the guidelines listed". I find this reply very puzzling; it seems to me that the blunt person in my scenario is very much not "behav[ing] as if [his] interlocutor[ ] [is] also aiming for convergence on truth" (from the summary statement of the Fifth Guideline) nor "keep[ing] in touch with the possibility that you might be misunderstanding each other, or that the problem might be in your models, [...] etc." (from the detailed expansion of the Fifth Guideline). It does not seem to me that the claim that the scenario I posed "doesn't break any of the guidelines listed" is something a reasonable reader of the text of "Basics of Rationalist Discourse" should have been able to infer.
Perhaps Duncan's claim that I'm strawmanning him isn't about that particular paragraph. But if so ... what is it, specifically? In what way, specifically does the text of "Aiming for Convergence Is Like Discouraging Betting" mischaracterize the text of "Basics of Rationalist Discourse"? If I were a lawyer prosecuting this on Duncan's behalf, I would try to argue that "Aiming for Convergence"'s arguments against the Fifth Guideline are undermined by the fact that the expansion of the Fifth Guideline includes this paragraph:
That is, if "Aiming for Convergence" claimed that the Fifth Guideline claimed that people should attempt to converge with each other—effectively ignoring the "on truth" part—then it would be mischaracterizing the Fifth Guideline. But I don't think a reasonable reader of "Aiming for Convergence" would characterize the text as ignoring the "on truth" part. Rather, I said:
That is, I'm not claiming that the Fifth Guideline says people should just try to converge with each other. That would be stupid, and I know Duncan is not claiming the stupid thing. Rather, the post is trying to illustrate why even though I know Duncan is not saying the stupid thing, it still seems super-weird to me to summarize "both of them to try to see more of what's true" as "[a]im[ing] for convergence on truth, and behav[ing] as if your interlocutors are also aiming for convergence on truth", because I just don't think that's what approximations of Bayesian updating look like, even though we have theorems about how perfect Bayesian reasoners with common priors would in fact converge on truth.
Did I do a perfect job of explaining this? No, I don't think I did; thanks to critical commenters including Duncan, I have some vague ideas on how I might revise the post to be clearer if I get around to it. Should I, perhaps, have made it clearer that I know Duncan doesn't believe the stupid thing, perhaps by quoting and acknowledging the paragraph starting with "If two people disagree"? Maybe! I will definitely consider that if I get around to revising the post! Is such a revision necessary in order for my post to not be guilty of strawmanning? Again, I argue No.