I'm really glad this was clarifying!
It seems like maybe part of the issue is that you hear Nate and Eliezer as saying "here is the argument for why it's obvious that ASI will kill us all" and I hear them as saying "here is the argument for why ASI will kill us all" and so you're docking them points when they fail to reach the high standard of "this is a watertight and irrefutable proof" and I'm not?
Yeah, for sure. I would maybe quibble that I think the book is saying less that it's obvious that ASI will kill us all but that it is inevitable that ASI will kill us all, and so our only option is to make sure nobody builds it. I do think this is a pretty fair gloss (representative quote: "If anyone anywhere builds superintelligence, everyone everywhere dies").
To me, this distinction matters because the belief that ASI doom is inevitable suggests a really profoundly different set of possibly actions than the belief that ASI doom is possible. Once we're out of the realm of certainty, we have to start doing risk analyses and thinking seriously about how the existence of future advanced AIs changes the picture. I really like the distinction you draw here:
There's a motte argument that says "Um actually the book just says we'll die if we build ASI given the alignment techniques we currently have" but this is dumb. What matters is whether our future alignment skill will be up to the task. And to my understanding, Nate and Eliezer both think that there's a future version of Earth which has smarter, more knowledgeable, more serious people that can and should build safe/aligned ASI. Knowing that a godlike superintelligence with misaligned goals will squish you might be an easy call, but knowing exactly what the state of alignment science will be when ASI is first built is not.
To its credit, IABIED is not saying that we'll die if we build ASI with current alignment techniques – it is trying to argue that future alignment techniques won't be adequate, because the problem is just too hard. And this is where I think they could have done a much better job of addressing the kinds of debates people who actually do this work are having instead of presenting fairly shallow counter-arguments and then dismissing them out of hand because they don't sound like they're taking the problem seriously.
My issue isn't purely the level of confidence, it's that the level of confidence comes out of a very specific set of beliefs about how the future will develop, and if any one of those beliefs is wrong less confidence would be appropriate, so it's disappointing to me to see that those beliefs aren't clearly articulated or defended.
Clara Collier recently reviewed If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies in Asterisk Magazine. I’ve been a reader of Asterisk since the beginning and had high hopes for her review. And perhaps it was those high hopes that led me to find the review to be disappointing.
Collier says “details matter,” and I absolutely agree. As a fellow rationalist, I’ve been happy to have nerds from across the internet criticizing the book and getting into object-level fights about everything from scaling laws to neuron speeds. While they don’t capture my perspective, I thought Scott Alexander and Peter Wildeford’s reviews did a reasonable job at poking at the disagreements with the source material without losing track of the big picture.
But I did not feel like Collier’s review was getting the details or the big picture right. Maybe I’m missing something important. Part of my motive for writing this “rebuttal” is to push back on where I think Collier gets things wrong, but part of it stems from a hope that by writing down my thoughts, someone will be able to show me what I’m missing. (Maybe Collier will respond, and we can try to converge?)
I’ll get into a mess of random nitpicking at the end of this essay, but I want to start by addressing two main critiques from Collier’s review, that I think are pretty important:
FOOM
Collier writes:
Collier is absolutely right that recursive self improvement leading to a rapid intelligence explosion has been a common thing MIRI has talked about since the era when MIRI was the Singularity Institute.
But I would strongly disagree with the notion that FOOM is “a key plank” in the story for why AI is dangerous. Indeed, one of the most useful things that I, personally, got from the book, was seeing how it is *not* load bearing for the core arguments.
Yudkowsky does think an intelligence explosion stemming from recursive self improvement is at least somewhat likely (as do I). But even if AI capabilities progress at a relatively slow rate, the likeliest outcome is still catastrophe. The scenario provided in Part 2 of the book deliberately focuses on AIs that can’t self-improve much and can’t achieve vast superintelligence (until well after humanity is disempowered) because the authors wanted to show that the core argument doesn’t require those assumptions.
Just to check, let’s go through the book’s central points, which were nicely laid out by Peter Wildeford in his review (all this text is his):
</PeterWildeford>
Is FOOM load bearing for any of those points? I don’t think so. The first four points (which correspond to the first five chapters of the book) at the very least seem to me to be independent of takeoff speeds. One could argue that point 2 is irrelevant if we go slowly, because even though we currently lack skill to align AIs, we may develop that skill in the future before they’re dangerous, but the point that they’re alien and very opaque still stands.
My guess is that Collier thinks that FOOM is necessary to justify point 5, and that if there’s “steady, predictable advances” that we’ll have multiple tries. I’ll address that in a moment. Regardless, I think it’s simply not true that FOOM is load-bearing for “everything” in the book, and I think it’s therefore clumsy to attack Soares and Yudkowsky for not talking about it more.
On the topic of FOOM, I also want to quickly address what appears to be another misconception: whether a rapidly increasing level of intelligence is necessarily linked to there being a single ASI. While an extremely rapid takeoff might allow for a first-mover to seize everything (and indeed, I think this is Yudkowsky’s default guess), I see no reason why multiple AI systems couldn’t take off roughly in parallel. (My 2016 novel Crystal Society imagines this exact premise.)
Yudkowsky also thinks this is plausible, or at least worth considering. IABIED directly addresses the notion that there might be multiple AIs:
And in the book’s online resources:
(See also: this bit of the online resources talking about multiple AIs, and this bit of the online resources that addresses the idea of using AI competition to protect us.)
Also on the topic of getting FOOM right, I think it’s probably a mistake to characterize an intelligence explosion as contrary to a picture of predictable, continuous progress. When the forecasters behind AI 2027 extrapolated out the “predictable” trajectory of AI development, they describe a scenario where the AIs become superhuman and recursively self-improve, leading to an intelligence explosion that kills all humans! Collier seems to imply that continuous = slow and gradual, and I just don’t think that follows.
Collier writes:
I think this is the wrong take on AI 2027. The “competing AIs” they describe are, as far as I can tell, only really relevant in that scenario because the race dynamics make things harder. Yes, AI 2027 involves many opportunities for the humans to notice that they’re in danger prior to the full loss of control, but none of that contradicts the story of an uncontrollable intelligence explosion. The intelligence explosion becomes uncontrollable when the humans fail to stop advancing AI capabilities before the critical window closes. (See my thoughts on AI 2027 for more thoughts on why the Slowdown ending is unrealistic.)
The scenario in IABIED also involves an AI that becomes uncontrollable after some amount of time where the developers have the opportunity to notice the warning signs and take precautionary measures. And there’s some discussion of “catching the AI in the act”:
I don’t think anyone believes that we have no opportunity to notice warning signs. In an important sense, we’re already in that position today. Developers are noticing a steady trickle of red flags, and the issue is more that these are not blatant enough to serve as a “fire alarm” or get most of the people building those machines to change course. Perhaps Collier believes there will be some significant jump in how scary these things are, such that the warning signs become much more potent? I’m curious for other people’s perspectives here (especially if you’ve read the book), because I feel confused about the supposed contrast with AI 2027.
Relevant sections of the book’s online supplement:
Gradualism
This seems like a good point to transition into talking about the other central point that I hear Collier as making, which I might paraphrase as “gradual progress means that we’ll have time to learn about how AI works and develop techniques for aligning and controlling it that can be tested and refined in pace with the AI getting stronger and smarter.” This belief that we might be okay if AI progress is gradual — if it’s slow enough — that we’ll be able to adapt, is pretty common, I think, and it has merit. I agree, for starters, that going slow is broadly helpful. That’s why I think it’s important to set up policies and regulations that slow things down.
But speed is not the only crucial aspect of the gradualism hope — it’s also essential that the work we do to align AIs on Monday will continue to be relevant on Tuesday. Collier seems to think that Yudkowsky’s position is that current work is useless, because there will be a radical discontinuity. Here’s her attempt to characterize Yudkowsky’s position:
I think this is not Yudkowsky’s position. I’m not sure exactly what the real Yudkowsky would say, but my shoulder-Eliezer says “It’s not that the work is irrelevant, it’s that it’s insufficient. If you tackle a problem that’s too hard, you can spend a lot of time without getting anywhere close to the solution. Even if it turns out we have nice, smooth, gradual progress over the span of a decade or whatever, we’re still going to die when we build a superintelligence because our civilization is too inadequate to address everything on the list of lethalities. This is a very hard problem, and you won’t have the luxury of learning from (a large and critical subset of) your failures, unlike all the other very hard engineering problems we’ve solved before.”
Perhaps I think he’d say this because I, personally, have a lot of esteem for the people who are currently working on solving the technical problems (including myself!) and think that we need more people working to try and figure out alignment. I agree that MIRI is, at times, dismissive of people’s hope in a way that can be abrasive and make it seem like the authors don’t have esteem for our colleagues. But I also note that the authors of IABIED have also repeatedly praised interpretability researchers, made personal efforts to make progress on the technical challenges, and so on.
Let’s turn to the question of whether we’ll only have one shot, since it seems like it might be something of a double-crux.
Collier writes:
I think the situation with ASI is similar to a killer asteroid headed for Earth that we only have one real shot to deflect, because we only detected it recently. In the case of the asteroid, at least, there’s no relationship between whether we only have one shot, and whether the work we’ve done before this point is relevant. Yes, we already have some spacecraft, and we’ve learned a lot that’s relevant. But we still only get one shot. If we mess up for whatever reason, everyone dies, because the problem is global, lethal, and irreversible, not because it’ll be different from what we’ve dealt with before.
Now, notably, it might also be qualitatively different from what we’ve dealt with before. For example, AIs that are not clearly capable of taking over the world might avoid thoughts or behaviors that push in that direction for the simple reason that those thoughts and behaviors aren’t useful for getting them what they want. The actually-dangerous ASI might be the first intelligent model that invests heavily in scheming. Or it might not! Seems like a hard call whether the first dangerous ASI will be very similar to current models, and I’ve heard people go both ways. This uncertainty makes me more worried, but it is not load-bearing with regard to whether AI is dangerous or whether we only have one shot.
I’m pretty confused by this, and would love to hear a followup clarification of the logic she has in mind.
My best attempt to steelman the argument is: “If AIs develop in a smooth fashion, we’ll have some time to engage with and learn from minds that are comparably intelligent to a human before we face something radically superhuman. Like grinding low-level enemies in an RPG, this experience will give us the opportunity to level-up our alignment skills so that when we face the boss challenge of a radically superhuman AI, we’ll be ready. We’ll probably fail a bunch on the weaker AI, but those failures will let us broadly succeed on aligning all the AIs where failure would be catastrophic.”
(Apologies if the steelman is missing important things. I want comments/feedback here.)
I think this steelman has some truth. I do think we benefit from having a long, slow period of adaptation and exposure to not-yet-extremely-dangerous AI. As long as we aren’t lulled into a false sense of security, it seems very plausible that insights from studying these systems will help improve our skill at alignment. I think ideally this would mean going extremely slowly and carefully, but various readers may be less cautious/paranoid/afraid than me, and think that it’s worth some risk of killing every child on Earth (and everyone else) to get progress faster or to avoid the costs of getting everyone to go slow. But regardless of how fast things proceed, I think it’s clearly good to study what we have access to (as long as that studying doesn’t also make things faster or make people falsely confident).
But none of this involves having “more than one shot at the goal” and it definitely doesn’t imply the goal will be easy to hit. It means we’ll have some opportunity to learn from failures on related goals that are likely easier.
The “It” in “If Anyone Builds It” is a misaligned superintelligence capable of taking over the world. If you miss the goal and accidentally build “it” instead of an aligned superintelligence, it will take over the world. If you build a weaker AGI that tries to take over the world and fails, that might give you some useful information, but it does not mean that you now have real experience working with AIs that are strong enough to take over the world.
Nitpicks
I’m going to go through a few of the random bits of the review that I take issue with. My guess is that these are less important, even on the whole, but in the spirit of getting the details right I want to at least offer some pushback.
Collier:
I find it very strange that Collier claims that international compute monitoring would “tank the global economy.” What is the mechanism for this, exactly?
For context, “eight of the most powerful GPUs” might not intuitively sound like much, but that’s over $200,000 in hardware. Quoting an online appendix to the book:
And:
There’s a strengthened version of Collier’s argument that says
I think this is valid (but not knowably sound, because it might kill us), and if we want to recklessly charge forward, I agree that we’ll be counterfactually richer (until we’re dead or disempowered). But if this is what Collier had in mind, I think it’s extremely bad form to characterize slowing down as “tanking the global economy,” since it would still allow for normal economic progress and would not involve people getting poorer.[1]
I understand the position that thinks there’s no such thing as ASI, or it would be safe by default, such that there’s no reason for governments to intervene here. And I understand the maximally libertarian position that argues that the government shouldn’t be able to make things illegal, regardless of cost. But I don’t understand the position Collier is putting forward here.
My position, for transparency: I’m broadly libertarian/classically liberal, but think there are exceptions. We already need to police the world to make sure random people aren’t building nuclear weapons, and I expect this will soon need to extend to labs capable of engineering bioweapons. I do not want a “global surveillance state,” but I think it’s possible for the government to track chips while also leaving almost everyone’s privacy almost entirely intact.
More on this in the book’s online supplement:
Collier:
It is true that the authors have a worldview and don’t spend much time defending the parts of it that aren’t central to the thesis. This is what makes the book so short and straightforward compared to other things Yudkowsky has written.
Collier:
Yes! Exactly!
A few reasons, like:
See also, in the supplemental materials:
Collier:
To my memory this was never the argument. I think that the argument was "we don't know how to encode the right values by hand nor do we know how to encode a meta-process that gets the right values at the end." Yes, there was some work on tiling agents (including the Löbian stuff) and some discussion of what to do about value drift, but I do not recall any time when Yudkowsky was optimistic about hand-coding it to have the right values, nor a time when his only concern was getting values to stick when the AI self-improves.
Some aspects of the alignment problem look different today than they did 15 years ago. For example, Eliezer mentioned in a conversation a few days ago:
But neither of these pictures is saying that the core problem (much less the whole problem) is goal instability. And they’re certainly not saying the whole problem is “goal instability specifically during recursive self-improvement that specifically is crossing the gap to superintelligence.”
Describing Sydney’s behavior as human is… certainly not how I would describe it.
But also, does Collier really think she knows Sydney’s motives? Does she think that Sydney was actually jealous, in the same way a human is, and that her words were drawn out of a desire for Kevin Roose’s love? I’m not sure it makes sense to describe Sydney as an agent at all, much less one with human motives.
Regardless, I would also not describe our current techniques as doing a reasonably good job unless “good job” involves the occasional Mecha Hitler, AI-driven psychosis/weirdness, and quietly commenting out unit tests. Yes, none of these are overtly hostile in the way that Sydney was, but overt hostility is hardly the only sign of things gone wrong.
Again, linking to some deeper discussion of this:
And more to the point…
It is not a “well-known fact” that we have solved alignment for present LLMs. If Collier believes otherwise, I am happy to make a bet and survey some alignment researchers. (Or cite the work coming out of Anthropic, Redwood Research, Apollo, or any of the other great places doing empirical work.)
Why does Collier think this? Am I missing something? The book is chock-full of examinations and examples from current systems. The authors call interpretability researchers “heroes” for a reason. One of the main points of the book is that the mess that we see is a demonstration how far away a mature understanding of alignment is. That’s an important takeaway!
I don’t think Yudkowsky and Soares are picking on alchemists’ tone, I think they’re picking on the combination of knowledge of specific processes and ignorance of general principles that led to hubris in many cases.
I’m pretty confused by this description of the Part 2 scenario.
First of all, there is no nanotech in the takeover scenario prior to the AI having full control of the planet, unless you count the transistors in the computer or the drugs and biological viruses that the AI develops. It plays no role in the AI’s takeover whatsoever; from a human perspective, it doesn’t matter for the story. (Though the feasibility of nanotech might matter for other scenarios.)
More importantly, the scenario also doesn’t feature anything like an intelligence explosion until after the AI has full control of the planet. As I noted earlier, this was deliberately done to show that those kinds of developments, plausible though they are, are not load-bearing.
The scenario does start with the discovery of a new scaling law, similar to breakthroughs like the transformer architecture and chain-of-thought reasoning. But as described in the book and online resources, this isn’t load-bearing either.
More Was Possible
I don’t think IABIED is a perfect book. I don’t think Yudkowsky is a perfect communicator or figurehead or whatever. I want a thousand books about the risks, with a variety of different tones and styles and perspectives. I want our friends and allies and fellow rationalists to point out all the issues and help us do even better.
But I also want us to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. There is space to take issue with Yudkowsky’s level of confidence[2] and use this opportunity to call out for the world to notice that the risks of our current path are unacceptably high. I was hoping that Asterisk’s review would get the details right and help our cause, but instead I feel sad and confused.[3] I welcome comments and responses to help me understand where I’m wrong.
Yes, it would cause Nvidia's stock price to drop, and presumably the stock price of other tech companies. Even if those stocks tank, I do not think it's fair to describe this as tanking the global economy. Those high stock prices reflect the market's unrealized expectation, and I think my point about counterfactual losses not being the same as an actual increase in poverty stands.
I, and some others at MIRI, are more optimistic than Eliezer. There’s lots of room for allies to disagree.
And maybe a little angry around the edges. Sorry if any of that crept in. I’m genuinely trying hard not to be antagonistic, and want us to work together instead of getting caught up in infighting. 😔