I also believe phenomenal conservatism, but I am a moral realist and think analytic hedonism is likely to be true. As you mentioned, arguments for moral realism based on our moral intuitions are quite bad. Instead, I think the good is based on the intrinsic quality of our experiences. When I eat a food I like, the reason I enjoy it and desire it doesn't seem to be reducible to anything other than that the experience seems good. Likewise, if I touch a hot stove, I have a desire to avoid that experience not because of the instrumental considerations of burning my hand, but rather some intrinsic quality of badness that the experience entails. Upon reflection it really does seem like our experiences carry a valenced quality which is inherently motivating. This seems roughly as certain to me as that I have experiences at all. Compare this to other aspects about our experiences which are not motivating in this regard, such as whether I am looking at a certain color or doing an activity.
With regard to Mackie's argument, I think the biggest problem is that there are just a lot of things about consciousness we just don't have access to information about. So I don't think we could know about "goodness" or "badness" atoms any more than we know about consciousness atoms, but we do have some information about goodness and badness the same way we do about experiences. When determining if an action is good or bad, the objective property of goodness can be compared in the worlds where the action happens and where it doesn't, and it seems like a world with more goodness is more desireable than the ones without it.
it’s much less plausible to me that my belief in logical entailments is mind-dependent and not true for everyone everywhere.
why? does the same evolutionary 'underminer' not apply here?
we should expect to find ourselves in minds that accept entailments optimized for reproductive fitness. we can argue that they should let us 'do physics' based on instrumental reasons[1]. but it's unclear to me that they should give us access to any kind of 'objective mathematics', or even that such a thing should exist.
even that seems like it could be limited to certain scales, gravitations, or parts of space, or so on.
Consider the Bolzano-Weierstrass theorem, which states that a real bounded sequence contains a converging sub-sequence.
There was a time when it didn't appear to me that the BW theorem was true, and I didn't believe in it. Now, it appears to me that it is true, and I believe it is.
The transition from non-belief to belief in the BW theorem wasn't based on appearance, although it coincided: it was based on presentation of rigorous argument (which appeared valid) whose inevitable logical consequence was that the BW theorem was true.
My belief in the BW theorem grew first from authority, then internal acceptance of the argument, then I cached the thought and now may use it without recalling the proof.
I suspect that a large part of mathematical teaching is giving the students an internal appearance of the validity of the arguments (as in, it appears to their introspected reason, regardless of teacher authority or contextual clues).
I wonder WHICH proof you were taught. Wikipedia has two proofs, of which the second one seems to be more intuitive. It works by repeatedly splitting the interval into subintervals, then noticing that a subinterval has infinitely many points and using this fact. Receiving "an internal appearance of the validity of the arguments" is NOT how math is supposed to work, it is supposed to rely on rigorous proofs.
I think there may be roughly at least one moral realist foundational imperative; vaguely that doing something optional (e.g. not in self-defense) to another agent requires their CEV to consent to it. I don't think any particular definitions of consent without CEV could be objectively true because of the children problem; creating and raising a child may be morally correct but involves a period of non-consent.
Counterarguments are that CEV doesn't exist for enough agents to be meaningful, CEV can't be calculated well enough to be useful, "optional" isn't specific enough, or that there exists a conflicting objective moral framework.
I think the answer to all these counterarguments is basically "well, then try to do as close as possible to what we all would wish could exist with CEV consent" and if this would lead to terrible forever wars then I am simply wrong (or terrible forever wars are what the gods demand).
Realism and anti realism aren't two well defined and distinct positions: rather there is a range of realistic and and anti-realistic positions.
The strongest forms of realism include universalism , the idea that ethical questions don't just have answers, but acontextual answers that apply to everybody; and the idea that there is a special realm of moral objects or properties. Neither is needed for minimal moral realism, the idea ethical claims have (stance independent) truth values.
Anti realist positions include the extreme claims that moral propositions are meaningless (non cognitivism) or systematically false (nihilism) as well as relativistic claims, that moral claims have truth values dependent on individual stances or social agreements. Moderate anti realism is at least close to moderate realism, creating the possibility of a middle way.
In response, I mention an undercutting defeater: our moral intuitions ultimately exist in our brains that were shaped by evolution and natural selection. And they correspond suspiciously well to intuitions that would help individuals and societies have high reproductive fitness
You say that like it's a problem. If morality is in fact a set of evolved habits and instincts for living in, and preserving , societies that is enough --that's where the buck stops. And such a take on metaethics is different to strong anti realism (nihilism, subjectivism, etc) even if it doesn't amount to full strength realism.
there’s no particular reason to think natural selection would result in moral instincts based on objective moral truth (since there’s no reason to think that following objectively correct morality helps you survive and reproduce).
The Open Question objection states that evolutionary ethics isn't necessarily true. It isn't a defeater in the strong sense of showing evolutionary ethics is necessarily false. And if you are favouring something like subjectivism, you need to show that is true/workable separately -- the truth of subjectivism doesn't follow from the falsehood of realism. And if you are favouring something like nihilism, you need to be explain why societies have moral practices at all.
Truth is a multi faceted concept, too. Some kinds of truth are more obtainable than others. There is reason to think that natural selection (and cultural evolution) would result in ethics that's fit-for-purpose. If you are willing to accept that kind off pragmatic adequacy as a kind of almost-truth, you can have an almost-realism.
Subjectivsm, emotivism, and nihilism have various problems that moral realism would not have. Ethics is called in to justify rules that apply to everybody, and actions that occur objectively, like putting people in jail. Neither nihilism nor non cognitivism find can justify such actions. Nor can subjectivism: if Alice thinks Charlie is a criminal, and Bob thinks us a hero, should Charlie get a jail sentence or a medal? Therefore, if something like Moral Realism does not exist, it would be desirable to invent it, to construct a system of ethics that is as close to realism as possible... and perhaps we have..
Minimally Moral realism is the idea that moral claims have mind independent truth values. Maximally, it is the idea that it requires it's own domain of non natural entities ... an idea driven by the correspondence theory of truth, and the is-ought gap.
The apparent requirement for supernatural entities is a common reason to reject moral.realism, but many naturalist theories of realism are available. Eg evolutionary ethics, contractarianism, Kantian ethics and game theoretical ethics. Maybe utilitarianism as well.
Naturalistic ethics can still be objected to on grounds of the is-ought gap. --.but I will argue that there is no such thing. How a thing should done is well. It is possible to gather bodies of theoretical and practical information on how to do something --build a bridge, or play chess--well. Such methodological knowledge is conditional: if you want to achieve X, you should do Y. So if we want to apply it to ethics, we need to figure out what ethics is for, what it's purpose is.
This we can do. Ethics is social. If you are all alone in a desert island , there is nobody to steal from or murder. Ethics fulfils a role in society, and originated as a mutually beneficial way of regulating individual actions to minimise conflict, conserve resources, and solve coordination problems. A group of people on a.desert island would be better off if they created an ethical system from scratch ... it's in their interests to do so, so.there is a rational motivation to do so. That is the insight of contractarianism. Not only does ethics only make sense in a social context, every society has some form of it.
(And since its possible to think about ethics as a social technology, it's not necessary to think of it in terms of subjective seemings -- the phenomenal conservatism approach is not the only one).
This implies there is no universally correct system of ethics, since different societies operate under different constraints. Lack of universalism does not imply lack of realism. MR requires moral claims to have mind independent truth values ...but their truth values can be dependent on other things. Objective truths can be local, indexed to time and space.
This does not imply that any defacto moral system is ideal. Therefore, it is possible to judge how well adapted a particular ethical system is. Therefore , a pragmatic twist on moral realism is available, and a problem of typical relativism, that "anything goes" so long as it's done by a group --is avoided.
Phenomenal conservatism isn't foundationally justified, the justification is more pragmatic -- without PC, you have no starting point , and can't say anything about anything.
Instead, I think the good is based on the intrinsic quality of our experiences. When I eat a food I like, the reason I enjoy it and desire it doesn’t seem to be reducible to anything other than that the experience seems good. Likewise, if I touch a hot stove, I have a desire to avoid that experience not because of the instrumental considerations of burning my hand, but rather some intrinsic quality of badness that the experience entails.
Are any of those moral goods and bads? Should you be punished for eating food you don't like?
"Bad" is a highly ambiguous term. The badness of a bad apple is not that of a bad movie is not that of a bad person. If something is bad for me, I want to stop it, but if it isn't bad for you, where does your motivation obligation come from -- and without obligations, are we even talking ethics?
A bad apple is just a natural occurrence. A bad movie makes the world a worse place, but doesn't break any laws. But bad actions by bad people deserve punishment.There's a confused argument that tries to lever morality from natural facts by saying that something is bad in some sense, and then holding it up as a evaluative and normative truth.
Phenomenal conservatism isn’t foundationally justified, the justification is more pragmatic—without PC, you have no starting point , and can’t say anything about anything.
PC is one possible starting point, but there are others. For example, axiomatic mathematics allows you to say that 2+2=4, without the justification for that being "it seems that 2+2=4". As another example, you could assume anti-PC -- that however the world seems to you, the truth must be the opposite. So "without PC, you have no starting point" is not a reasonable justification for PC, even from a pragmatic point of view.
Are any of those moral goods and bads? Should you be punished for eating food you don't like?
I didn't say anything about punishment. What I mean by bad here is given a choice between World A where I'm eating something tasty and World B where I'm eating something yucky, World B is less preferable, so it is bad in that sense.
"Bad" is a highly ambiguous term. The badness of a bad apple is not that of a bad movie is not that of a bad person.
Goodness and badness are traits of experience and actions, not objects. When we say someone is a "bad person", we are capturing a bundle of intuitions about that person (they have bad intentions, their actions had bad results, etc). I don't think analyzing goodness or badness as a trait of people generally is productive, since these intuitions aren't actually rigorous (e.g. George Bush's policies were generally bad, but PEFPAR saved tens millions of lives, so he was plausibly the best president of the 21st century in terms of lives saved?). Likewise with an apple or movie, calling an apple bad captures some intuitions about desireable properties of apples (tasty, does not give you illness, etc), but it's not as if the apple has some inherent quality of goodness.
What I mean by bad here is given a choice between World A where I’m eating something tasty and World B where I’m eating something yucky, World B is less preferable, so it is bad in that sense.
If it is to be a theory of ethics at all, it needs to be bad in an ethical sense -- not in the sense of aesthetics or personal preference, or inefficency, or the various other things that "bad" can mean.
I didn’t say anything about punishment.
I brought it in to act as a criterion of ethical badness. “Bad” is a highly ambiguous term. The badness of a bad apple is not that of a bad movie is not that of a bad person.
Goodness and badness are traits of experience and actions, not objects.
English allows us to describe a rotten apple as bad. There are non ethical senses of bad. That's why it's not clear that the hedonic kind of badness that is immediately apprehensible in experience , the kind that analytical hedonism is based on, is the ethical kind I'm not saying that ethical goodness and badness are properties of objects, I'm doubting that they are properties of experiences. There are a lot more than two theories. Maybe ethical properties aren't anywhere.
Since there is doubt, it not clear that analytical hedonism is the one true theory of metaethics. Which is normal -- it's not clear that any other theory is -- metaethics is not a solved probelm.
There's an argument for Analytical Hedonic consequentialism, which states that you can just immediately tell me what's good and bad..The bad stuff hurts, the good stuff feels pleasurable. It seems appealing to its adherent s because it doesn't need to appeal to non physical properties existing outside the mind or divine commands.
It has two main problems: It's not at all clear that the kind of goodness and badness that is immediately apprehendable is an ethical kind; and it's not clear how my subjective perceptions mean I should behave in any particular way toward others , as I don't feel their pains.
they reply by saying “well, ok, if I accept Fundamentalism then I can simply assert that X Y Z are my fundamental beliefs and there’s nothing you can do to argue with me!”.
Foundationalism?
Huemer's "standard argument for PC" doesn't make sense to me. OK, so it is self-defeating to believe not-PC. Does this mean we are justified in believing PC? Why not say that we don't have a belief on whether PC is true one way or the other?
(Personally I think PC is obvious, but I don't think it's possible to prove its obviousness / justifiedness analytically)
Figure from Chapter 4 of Understanding Knowledge by Michael Huemer
On a high level there aren’t that many ways knowledge can be justified (or not). This figure from the book “Understanding Knowledge” by Michael Huemer illustrates the options you have:
Foundationalism is generally the most popular view (~60% of philosophers according to the 2020 PhilPapers survey). Coherentism is second at around 20%. From Huemer again:
Despite the popularity of Foundationalism among current and historical philosophers, anecdotally I notice people appeal to Coherentism in lay conversations. Not explicitly, but rather at some point they’ll imply that they believe a system of facts because they all cohere. Then, if you press them, e.g. by pointing out that there could be multiple conflicting coherent belief systems, they reply by saying “well, ok, if I accept Foundationalism then I can simply assert that X Y Z are my fundamental beliefs and there’s nothing you can do to argue with me!”.
So I’d like to explain why this mode of thinking is mistaken. Adopting a Foundationalist epistemology doesn’t give you a carte blanche to believe whatever.
My preferred flavor of Foundationalism is Phenomenal Conservatism (PC), a term coined by Huemer. PC is an account of what justifies foundational beliefs without the requirement for reasons. In “Compassionate Phenomenal Conservatism”, Huemer formulates PC as follows:
PC is about seemings or appearances—a distinctive experiential state.
Huemer’s standard argument for PC is a self-defeat argument, where he claims that rejecting PC ends up in a self-undermining position. Specifically, he argues that:
Unsurprisingly critics often attack (1). Huemer defends this as follows:
I agree with this.
So, why can’t you, in an argument with me, say “Well X just seems to me to be that way so bam! I win the argument”?
Well, you can say that. Ultimately, it’s impossible for me to prove to an external observer—say, a perfectly fair and intelligent debate judge—that your seeming that X is true isn’t strong enough to overwhelm any conflicting seemings and their implications. PC is an internalist theory: what justifies your belief is your appearances. Nonetheless I might find this implausible and try to convince you by pointing out the implications of your other seemings.
Importantly, PC says that appearances get “at least some degree of justification” and only “in the absence of defeaters.” A defeater is information that undermines the justification a seeming would otherwise provide. A rebutting defeater is evidence that the proposition is false—including, notably, other people’s contrary seemings and your own conflicting intuitions. An undercutting defeater is evidence that the seeming itself is untrustworthy—for instance, learning that it was produced under the influence of drugs, cultural indoctrination, or motivated reasoning.
So though I can’t definitively refute a claim that your seeming is so strong as to overwhelm any competing evidence, that requires you to make this extraordinary claim—that the seeming is that strong. If you still have some uncertainty then there’s more to discuss, since we can start considering the implications of your other foundational beliefs and how those might act as defeaters.
Of course, it’s rarely necessary to trace beliefs you’re confident in to their foundational components. For example, for the purposes of many arguments we may agree that the rules of logic are correct, that mathematical relationships hold as usual, or that consensus historical or scientific information is true. So if I use some scientific facts to undermine your position, I am in some sense using one set of foundational appearances to undermine another, but I’m not going as far as to point out which foundational appearances underlie your confidence in the scientific facts, since we already agree on them.
Let’s consider a concrete example: I often debate people on moral realism. I’m an anti-realist—I don’t think moral facts are objective and mind-independent. Rather I think our moral instincts our downstream of our psychologies—subjective, personal, preference-based. Many others I speak to are realists, often because it seems to them, extremely strongly, that, say, torturing people for fun is wrong in some objective sense. Not just contrary to their own preferences, or disapproved of by society, but wrong in a way that would remain true even if everyone in the world (including them) became pro-torture.
In response, I mention an undercutting defeater: our moral intuitions ultimately exist in our brains that were shaped by evolution and natural selection. And they correspond suspiciously well to intuitions that would help individuals and societies have high reproductive fitness. While it makes sense that natural selection would result in eyes that accurately see things in the real world (since it’s necessary to interact with the real world to get resources and so on), there’s no particular reason to think natural selection would result in moral instincts based on objective moral truth (since there’s no reason to think that following objectively correct morality helps you survive and reproduce). In addition, different cultures end up with diverging and conflicting moral codes, seemingly well-suited to what helps them survive in their natural environment. So overall the process that produced our moral seemings looks unrelated to any notion of objective moral truth.
Analogously, let’s say you see a glass of water, and so you have a strong reason to believe there’s one on the table in front of you. This is reasonable until you find out that you were just drugged with a potion that is known to produce hallucinations of glasses of water. Then you are back to square one—you have little reason to believe that there’s a glass of water in front of you.
This argument for moral anti-realism is called the evolutionary debunking argument. Refuters may respond that we can’t know for sure whether our moral instincts are what evolution would naturally elicit for reproductive fitness. It’s possible that, if not for the effect of objective moral truths, our instincts would be different, for instance more self-serving. It’s of course impossible to evaluate this counterfactual. So whether or not you buy the evolutionary debunking argument depends on the relative strengths of the intuitions involved. Perhaps it seems more obvious to you that torturing children is objectively wrong than that any premise of the debunking argument is true. Nothing in PC forbids this, and then we end up with a genuinely insurmountable disagreement. The same argument functions as a successful defeater in my belief system and a defeated one in yours, and there is no neutral vantage point from which a fair and intelligent debate judge could rule on whose seemings are the right strength. That’s the price of an internalist epistemology.
Similarly, Mackie’s Argument from Queerness argues that moral facts are just too weird:
This is also a compelling argument to me. But again, if your moral seemings are strong enough, they might overwhelm this queerness. For instance, the “Companions in Guilt” objection to Mackie argues that the exact same accusation applies to the rules of logic and mathematics, which also don’t have associated atoms and may be described as “queer”. The difference for me is that my logical intuitions or seemings are much, much stronger than my moral ones. It is perfectly plausible to me that my moral instincts are entirely subjective and a product of biology and culture. But it’s much less plausible to me that my belief in logical entailments is mind-dependent and not true for everyone everywhere.
So once we reach this point in the argument, I can only urge my interlocutor to introspect and ask themselves whether, internally, their moral seemings are strong enough to overcome these various potential defeaters. I know that for me the answer is no. But maybe for you the answer is yes.