I agree that “every thought we think, we’re thinking it because it’s higher-reward than other thoughts we might be thinking instead” is a great starting point.
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I kinda disagree with your emphasis on childhood. See my post Heritability, Behaviorism, and Within-Lifetime RL, where I (dismissively) called that school of thought “RL learn-then-get-stuck”. Of course, “RL learn-then-get-stuck” is true for a few things, like regional accents, but I think those are the exception not the rule. (See also §2 of “Heritability: Five Battles”.)
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I think you’re right about the person-to-person variation along a bunch of axes, but the way I think about it is generally at a lower level than the kind of “traits” you list. I think there are dozens of innate drives / innate reactions (some more important than others) in the hypothalamus & brainstem, and their relative strengths differ, and most of the things you list are mostly emergent consequences of the drive / reaction strengths vector. (Note that the map from the vector to behaviors is often nonlinear, and also depends on the options and consequences available in an environment / culture.)
Going through some examples from your list.
“Do you focus on "things" vs "people"” is I think related to an “innate drive to think about and interact with other people” that I briefly discuss in §5 here.
“Are words about reality or are words just rallying cries for your team?” is downstream of that along with many other things, like how strongly does one feel Approval Reward, which in turn depends on a bunch of things including how easily nearby people trigger an involuntary orienting reaction in you.
“How much emphasis do you place on wordless felt gut feelings?” is probably partly that those gut feelings come along with stronger involuntary attention and (the interoceptive equivalent of) orienting reactions in some people than others, making those feelings more or less salient versus easily-ignorable. (Presumably there are other contributing factors too.)
Etc. etc. I don’t have great theories for everything, just trying to give a hint of how I think about those kinds of things, in case it matters (and probably it doesn’t matter for your points here).
Thanks for the detailed comment!
I kinda disagree with your emphasis on childhood.
I'm not completely happy with how the emphasis came across. (Inkhaven has me pushing these out a little faster than is comfortable.)
To clarify and situate my feelings relative to your post (cheers, just read it). It would feel crazy to me to think that RL-learning stops at adulthood, as evidenced from the fact that adults can learn entirely new skills, the brain can regain functionality after strokes, people can unlearn phobias, etc.
Still, sure feels like a relatively large amount of learning happens in childhood. Perhaps because one is starting from a ~blank slate / uninitialized values? That learning can be overwritten but typically isn't because it takes the right circumstances. And while parents don't necessarily lock in everything forever, they do have a lot of influence do the control of childhood environment / how much they control the rewards. The child's mind generalizes correctly or not from the parents to others.
I think you’re right about the person-to-person variation along a bunch of axes, but the way I think about it is generally at a lower level than the kind of “traits” you list.
That seems right to me, that's the intuition I have and wish I could convey better. In earlier posts I'm trying to build an intuition pump from how walking and talking have low-level motions that we don't think about or describe. I'm listing higher-level stuff in part because i don't have a vocabulary for the lower-level stuff.
Cheers for your relevant writings, I'll read them.
Of course, “RL learn-then-get-stuck” is true for a few things, like regional accents
I'm very curious about which things fall into the "then-get-stuck" bucket and why. Are you confident there isn't a range of lower-level drives and innate reactions that get fixed similar to accents[1]?
Amusing to me: while I never had a strong Australian accent to begin and even as a kid some thought I sounded American, I've really lost since I moved to the US a decade ago at age 25 to point that few people can guess where I'm from.
I'm very curious about which things fall into the "then-get-stuck" bucket and why. Are you confident there isn't a range of lower-level drives and innate reactions that get fixed similar to accents?
I think the way that rewards (pleasure or displeasure) turn into desires (motivation) is one thing that is definitely continuous learning, not “get stuck”. If you’ve done something over and over in childhood, and then you do it today and it’s 100% miserable and embarrassing, and then you try it again the next day and it’s again 100% miserable and embarrassing, then you’re probably not going to try it a 3rd time, and certainly not a 10th time.
We see this when people get clinical depression as adults. They lose motivation to do all the things they used to like, no matter how much they liked it in childhood, or even more recently than that.
I think personality surveys mostly catch stuff like that. Even introverts go out sometimes, and even extroverts stay in sometimes. If it’s pleasant vs unpleasant, they’ll do it more. So a decision-to-socialize keeps getting steered towards the innate ground truth reward function. Likewise the decision to think about things versus people, to be honest or not, and ≈every other question on personality surveys. (Empirically, adult personality is approximately independent of childhood upbringing, in the population at large.)
Childhood regional accents are not “rewards turning into desires”, but rather something different—I think it involves the learning rate of a certain part of the cortex dropping towards zero after childhood. I don’t think “idiosyncratic cognition” is in that category, my impression is that PFC learning rates remain high throughout life.
(You’re an unusual case RE your accent … hmm, random question, did you watch a lot of American TV / movies as a kid?)
Childhood phobias don’t always last into adulthood but sometimes they do. The trick is that it’s a case where the reward itself can change (I call it “upstream generalization”). So the rewards→desires pathway continues to produce updates, but that doesn’t help. Separately, the reward itself does keep updating in response to new data, but only in narrower circumstances, by and large. I can’t immediately think of other things besides phobias that “get stuck” in that way.
I don't feel my picture is invalidated by this though. Even with PFC having continuous learning with high rates, I expect that people get pointed in a certain direction that reinforces it. If you learned early that social rewards are the best rewards, then go into politics, you might have chosen an environment that continually rewards and reinforces that motivation, even if a different environment might override it. Assortative mating and association might also cause people to hang out with others reinforcing the attitudes they first developed.
(Re my accent. I reckon I watched the same as anyone else. I don't think I don't feel especially autistic, but there's a claim that autistic kids learn more from media than peers. I don't know how that ties into it continuing to shift during adulthood.)
It’s definitely possible to “get stuck” not doing X because you’ve never tried X in your life, so you don’t know what you’re missing. Sometimes it can take people many years before they try X. And sometimes they just never do, even though they would totally “take to it” if they did.
I feel like you want to say that the never-trying-X failure mode is “the rule” and I want to say that it’s “the exception” … But if so, that might not be a real disagreement, and instead we’re just thinking about different kinds of X.
I definitely agree that it can be a thing, and brought it up in Heritability: Five Battles multiple times. My examples included X = “living in Churubusco, Indiana” (§2.2.2), or X = “becoming a Soil Conservation Technician” (§2.3), or X = “joining a niche online community like rationalism” (§2.2.3).
(Or sorry if I’m still missing your point.)
Yes, I do think something like "X never getting rewarded enough" is closer to a rule than weird exception. Chosen environments is one dynamic. Another dynamic here is kinds I think many things are such that if you've specialized, they continue to be worth doing and yield rewards, and if you didn't, there's a huge cliff before you'd get such benefits so won't go down that path. E.g. a child who learned to play instrumental in childhood vs not.
I'll write my next post which is the main point I've been working towards, and I'll be quite curious for your thoughts on it.
Human thinking has multiple layers of abstraction. Just as walking can be analyzed at the levels of "walk from A to B", "angles at which which knee, hip, and ankle joints bend", "individual muscle contractions", and "signaling to muscle fibres", so does thinking decompose from high-level questions like "what should I have for lunch?" into smaller mental operations like thinking of options ("tuna", "pasta", "takeout") and considerations ("healthy", "tasty", "economical").
As with walking, the lower levels aren't something we consciously think about, or can think about. When's the last time you thought about the angle you're bending your knees at when walking?
These realities mean that human thinking both has many degrees of freedom to vary, at many levels, and that we fail to notice just how varied human thinking could be. The lack of conscious awareness within ourselves of all the parts of our thinking compounds with the invisibility of other people's thinking. In the third post of this series, I argued we likely underestimate our differences from others when those differences are private.
In the second post, I asserted that major differences between people arise not just from what mental motions they can theoretically execute, but from the patterns and habits of thoughts they've learned.
Let's explore why people end up learning some different ways of thinking.
Plausibly, we might reason, people think differently because we actually have different brains. Just genetically, people are different. Maybe this could have been true; I don't think it is. One intuition pump here is that people vary in size, muscle mass, body-part length ratios, etc., and yet people mostly walk the same. Trained people can do gait analysis, but apart from the occasional person with swagger, I don't think we notice much difference in how people walk, at least visually. (Though curiously and maybe contra to my point here, it's common to be able to distinguish the sound of people's walking.) There's just like an approximately optimal way, and we all do that.
So if thinking followed the same pattern, while some people would be better at it, the way some people walk faster and more capably, we'd be doing the same thing.
This isn't a knockdown argument: brain phenotypes might differ more than body phenotypes relevant to walking. Still, I don't think it's all that's going on.
You might think that walking is something that evolution could figure out and completely encode in the genome for the brain. But it doesn't. Even animals that are able to walk very soon after birth do so with some stumbling around and practice, and improve in the following days and weeks. Certainly, for humans, each of us individually learn walking via trial and error, iteration hones the neural pathways for motor control until it is learned, automatic, and subconscious.
It's essential here that it is learning from feedback. The infant has a clear target of crossing the floor bipedally and an anti-target of falling on the floor. They try repeatedly, and they learn.
I don't think we have any reason to believe that thinking is any different. It's neither the case that we are born fully able to think (clearly not); nor is the case that new mental motions are suddenly unlocked simply once the brain matures sufficiently. Rather, like walking, there's a gradual process of trying to accomplish certain goals and seeing which mental motions work. In the same way that happens for walking, we up learning automatic and subconscious motions that we only direct at the highest level ("I'm walking over there").
Thinking is different in a couple of ways, though. (1) The reward signal is much more complicated than that for walking. Vastly more. There are all kinds of things our thinking can get us, such as approval from others, resources we like, experiences we like, inherently satisfying experiences like sating curiosity, and so on. (2) The range of mental motions is much wider than the range of leg motions.
The key thing is that little human minds come into the world not knowing which mental motions will work, but through trial and error, they find ones that work for them. Walking is maybe too simple. We could analogize to various sports. Playing tennis. One starts with crude motions, but over time, one masters a technique[1]. That technique may or may not be globally optimal. It may or may not generalize well from where it's learned. People do learn bad habits in sports. The same is true in thought.
Human children[2] have very similar needs to human adults. We want food, safety, entertainment, social acceptance, maybe even love and attention. Some of what works to get these rewards is dependent on environment, e.g., learning which plants and animals are safe to eat.
Especially in modern childhood, the cognitive strategies that are effective for getting ones needs are met are routed through the approval and favor of parents, teachers, and peers.
But let's explore some aspects of the reinforcement:
My mother tells a story of her younger brother's friend who would come over to play. One time, my grandmother took him and my uncle down to the shops and left them in the car while she popped in to buy something. The friend burst into tears, distraught. He'd immigrated with his family from the Soviet Union, and he expected going to the shops to take hours.
Take children of any genes, and I think you can cause them to be more anxious, more food-focused, more scarcity-minded, if you place them in environments where those kinds of temperaments are beneficial.
My thinking here is deeply downstream of Kevin Simler's excellent Personality: The Body in Society.
Though much of our final loadout is determined through development, we are born with certain dispositions: a natural talent for running, math, oration, or a naturally beautiful face. Notwithstanding, personality can't be packaged deterministically with other traits. Whether it's a good strategy (and personality is strategy[3]) to be aggressive and domineering is dependent not on your muscles, but on your muscles relative to everyone else's[4]. This is something one learns. Pick a few fights, either profit or lose horribly, and tendencies will get reinforced.
This goes just as much for the kinds of cognition you have. You're funnier than everyone else? You'll learn to make jokes. Poetically gifted? You'll probably double down on that skill. And so on.
Even if you're not athletically gifted, if your parents and peers and all those around you venerate athletic accomplishment, there's a good chance you'll invest in it. The drive for social approval is enough to get people to do a lot of things. And not just to do them, but to absorb that they are good.
And what those around us reward is more than what they explicitly value. The angry, explosive parent will train unobtrusiveness. The parent who only pays attention to wrongdoing might be training wrongdoing.
There are many types of thinking. At a macro-level, there's solving puzzles of physical reality (how do I fix this broken thing? how do I build an X that Y's?), there's social skills (what is that person thinking? what would most please them?), and there's these parameters like risk-taking and anxiety levels.
Throughout life, especially in childhood, these are getting explored and trained. Undoubtedly, there are feedback loops: the child who feels elation at getting an A+ on math (all the more so if parents/peers/culture reinforce that it is goood) will invest effort into repeating that win. The child who didn't might develop an aversion and instead focus on where their relative strength lies.
To quote Eugene Wei's excellent Status as a Service (Staas):
Let's begin with two principles:
- People are status-seeking monkeys*
- People seek out the most efficient path to maximizing social capital
I think the argument is broader than just social capital. In kind of a greedy, local(, myopic?) way, people are efficiently maximizing reward. For different people, the optimal path is different. And this includes patterns of thought.
I'd guess the full list of relevant traits here is a lot longer. And again, this list is at a high level of abstraction of mental traits because it's hard to make an ontology of lower mental operations, though I expect those to be varying significantly between people, too.
We can imagine putting each of these traits on a numerical scale. Let's say -1 to 1. And then position everyone on them. Make a vector in a high-dimensional space. Certainly, there will be correlations. But also a lot of variation across humanity.
I think this variation is there, and I think it's woefully underappreciated because when someone expresses an opinion on some issue, especially an issue where there are 2-3 mainstream options, you're not seeing all the weird and wacky ways their mind reached it.
You might imagine they're running a similar process to you with the truth value of a couple of premises flipped. You make your sandwiches with peanut butter and jelly, and you imagine they're getting a different result because they're using Nutella. Actually, they were making tikka masala. You just couldn't see, because mental behaviors are more private and weirder than shower behaviors.
And this has implications. You might think you'll get them to agree with you if you can convince them that PB&J is correct and Nutella is bad for you. But they're not even working with bread! The whole question of condiments is irrelevant. Only due to a real failure of intellectual empathy and poor translation do we think we're talking about the same things when we use the same words. You think the discussion is sandwiches, they think it's curry, and everyone is confused by how weird what the other is saying.
I'll elaborate more on this tomorrow.
Credit to Andrew Critch for this post and series. A chance conversation with him gave me the kernel of "people get RL'd into different kinds of thought" that I've been fleshing out.
We might say "mastering some skill" is equivalent to "establish really strong weights in ones brain for effective motions". (Weights in the ML/AI sense of model parameters.)
Not all learning happens in childhood but enough of it that I'm going to frame the learnin here as what happens in youth.
Thank you, Kevin Simler.
Or possible you learn that muscles aren't what matters because your society conducts all conflict via chess, and you're not very good at it.
I know, this is the stereotypical gender split. Perhaps so, I'd bet it's also attenuated or reinforced by learning.