Wiki Contributions


Pee Doom122

How do we do this without falling into the Crab Bucket problem AKA Heckler's Veto, which is definitely a thing that exists and is exacerbated by these concerns in EA-land? "Don't do risky things" equivocates into "don't do things".

Pee Doom3-2

A medieval peasant would very much disagree with that sentence, if they were suddenly thrust into a modern grocery store. I think they would say the physical reality around them changed to a pretty magical-seeming degree.


They would still understand the concept of paying money for food. The grocery store is pretty amazing but  it's fundamentally the same transaction as the village market. I think the burden of proof is on people claiming that money will be 'done away with' because 'post-scarcity', when there will always be economic scarcity. It might take an hour of explanation and emotional adjustment for a time-displaced peasant to understand the gist of the store, but it's part of a clear incremental evolution of stores over time.

I think a basically friendly society is one that exists at all and is reasonably okay (at least somewhat clearly better) compared to the current one. I don't see why economic transactions, conflicts of all sorts, etc wouldn't still happen, assuming the lack of existentially-destructive ones that would preclude the existence of such a hypothetical society. I can see the nature of money changing, but not the fundamentals of there being trades.

I don't think AI can just decide to do away with conflicts via unilateral fiat without an enormous amount of multipolar effort, in what I would consider a friendly society not ran by a world dictator. Like, I predict it would be quite likely terrible to have an ASI with such disproportionate power that it is able to do that, given it could/would be co-opted by power-seekers. 

I also think that trying to change things too fast or 'do away with problems' is itself something trending along the spectrum of unfriendliness from the perspective of a lot of humans. I don't think the Poof Into Utopia After FOOM model makes sense, that you have one shot to send a singleton rocket into gravity with the right values  or forever hold your peace. This thing itself would be an unfriendly agent to have such totalizing power and make things go Poof without clear democratic deliberation and consent. This seems like one of the planks of SIAI ideology that seems clearly wrong to me, now, though not indubitably so. There seems to be a desire to make everything right and obtain unlimited power to do so, and this seems intolerant of a diversity of values.

This seems to be a combo of the absurdity heuristic and trying to "psychoanalyze your way to the truth". Just because something sounds kind of like some elements of some religions, does not make it automatically false.

I am perfectly happy to point out the ways people around here obviously use Singularitarianism as a (semi-)religion, sometimes, as part of the functional purpose of the memetic package. Not allowing such social observations would be epistemically distortive. I am not saying it isn't also other things, nor am I saying it's bad to have religion, except that problems tend to arise. I think I am in this thread, on these questions, coming with more of a Hansonian/outside view perspective than the AI zookeeper/nanny/fully automated luxury gay space communism one.

Pee Doom5-2

Nitpicking a particular topic of interest to me:

Power/money/being-the-head-of-OpenAI doesn't do anything post-singularity.

It obviously does?

I am very confused why people make claims in this genre. "When the Singularity happens, this (money, conflict, the problems I'm experiencing) won't be a problem anymore."

This mostly strikes me as magical, far-mode thinking. It's like people have an afterlife-shaped hole after losing religion. The specific, real reality in front of you won't magically suddenly change after an Intelligence Explosion and assuming we're alive in some coherent state. Money and power are very, very likely to still exist afterwards, just in a different state that makes sense as a transformation of the current world.

I will keep harping on that more people should try starting (public benefit) corporations instead of nonprofits. At least, give it five minutes' thought. Especially if handwaves impact markets something something. This should be in their Overton Window, but it might not be because they automatically assume "doing good => charity => nonprofit". Corporations are the standard procedure for how effective helpful things are done in the world; they are RLHF'd by the need to acquire profit by providing real value to customers, reducing surfacce area for bullshitting. I am not an expert here by any means, but I'm noticing the fact that I can go on Clerky or Stripe Atlas and spend a couple hours spinning up an organization, versus, well, I haven't actually gone through with trying to incorporate a nonprofit, but the process seems at least 10x more painful based on reading a book on it and with how many people seek fiscal sponsorship. I'm pretty surprised this schlep isn't talked about more. Having to rely on fiscal sponsorship seems pretty obviously terrible to me, and I hadn't even considered the information-distortive effects here. I would not be caught dead being financially enmeshed with the EVF umbrella of orgs after FTX. From my naive perspective, the castle could have easily been a separate business entity with EVF having at least majority control?

(I just realized I'm on LessWrong and not EA Forum, and could have leaned harder into capitalismpunk without losing as many social points.)

Pee Doom115

The wifi hacking also immediately struck me as reminiscent of paranoid psychosis. Though a significant amount of psychosis-like things are apparently downstream of childhood trauma, including sexual abuse, but I forget the numbers on this.

I've worried about it's sustainability, but do you think it's been a good path for you?

Cutting out bird and seafood products (ameliatarianism) is definitely more sustainable for me. I'm very confused why you would think it's less sustainable than, uh, 'cold turkey' veganism. "Just avoid chicken/eggs" (since I don't like seafood or the other types of bird meat products) is way easier than "avoid all meat, also milk, also cheese".

Similar for me. I was very suspicious at first that the first message was a Scam and if I clicked I would blow up the website or something tricksy. Then with the second message I thought it might be customized to test my chosen virtue, "resisting social pressure", so I didn't click it.

Pee Doom-10

"You’ve never experienced bliss, and so you’re frantically trying to patch everything up and pin it all together and screw the universe up so that it's fixed." - Alan Watts

Pee Doom21

People in MIRI/CFAR/LessWrong ~actively resisted the idea of a marketing push optimized more along dimensions of mass persuadability, for better or worse. One reason is that there is inertia once you've built a mass movement with MoPs who can't dialogue like on this site. My straw model is they think "we just need to produce technical insights and communicate them" and other comms work is an opportunity cost or creates/incentivizes some kind of epistemic trap.

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