Zvi

Zvi's Comments

Mazes Sequence Roundup: Final Thoughts and Paths Forward

Yes, I believe that is mostly right. I would like to get better gears on this, though.

Mazes Sequence Roundup: Final Thoughts and Paths Forward

Trust and loyalty seem to me to clearly be virtues if placed wisely and in moderation. Like all virtues, you go too far and bad things happen. Industrial scaling gives you new ways to backfire, but there's certainly very non-industrial ways to go way overboard on either or both. Cults can be very small.

Mazes Sequence Roundup: Final Thoughts and Paths Forward

The plan would be to do a close listen to determine which songs are most important; ideally one would listen to the full albums (Pieces of You, Spirit, This Way, 0304 and Goodbye Alice in Wonderland, in that order), and in general I've updated more and more towards 'respect the artist once you like multiple songs of theirs, and listen to full albums in order' but that's a lot of music.

I think this is the minimum story of the journey I want to talk about.

Who Will Save Your Soul?

Pieces of You

Little Sister

I'm Sensitive

What's Simple is True

Down So Long

Innocence Maintained

Life Uncommon

Jesus Loves You

Serve the Ego

This Way

Love Me, Just Leave Me Alone

Intuition

Sweet Temptation

Yes U Can

Goodbye Alice in Wonderland

Words Get in the Way

Stephenville, TX

Mazes Sequence Roundup: Final Thoughts and Paths Forward

Agree that would be cool if it was good enough that it got used. Unknown how good it would have to be before it would get used.

Mazes Sequence Roundup: Final Thoughts and Paths Forward

It was never my intent to say that the solution to mazes is less competition between corporations or between organizations. If you look at the solutions that were proposed, none of them were about decreasing competition.

The idea I was going for in terms of mazes, as I tried to explain here (it is entirely possible I botched this explanation on top of the initial confusion), was that super-perfect competition between people to get ahead within an organization (or larger system that likewise has not enough slots for too many people) is the problem here.

I also maintain, as a distinct claim, that if we were to see true perfect or super-perfect competition in the overall world, that would have some very bad effects, and that the reason we don't see this is because perfect competition is a really weird set of assumptions that are not that close to applying in those situations, and I do think exploring these things more is interesting in its own right but isn't what I'm trying to centrally do. Related to that I would argue that no, sufficiently competitive markets don't do the thing you think they do, they do something else that can in some ways and situations be wonderful or even optimal, but that depends on what you care about and a lot of detail, and you can also get a big disaster.

Barring a massive edit or additional post creation I don't know how to do better than that in terms of responding.

Create a Full Alternative Stack

I was in no way trying to disguise that the problem of people faking alignment with the stack in order to extract resources is the biggest problem with the project, if someone were to actually try to implement it. If I get feedback that this wasn't clear enough I will edit to make it more clear. And certainly one does not simply throw money at the problem.

So that far, fair enough.

However, this also incorporates a number of assumptions, and a general view of how things function, that I do not share.

First, the idea that alignment is a singular problem, or that it either does or does not have a solution. That seems very wrong to me. Alignment has varying known solutions depending on the situation and which prices you are wiling to pay and how much you care, and varies based on what alignment you are trying to verify. You can also attempt structure the deal such that people that are non-aligned (e.g. with the maze nature, or even not very into being opposed to it) do not want what you are offering.

I don't think there are cheap solutions. And yes, eventually you will fail and have to start over, but I do think this is tractable for long enough to make a big difference.

Second, the idea that if there was a solution then it would be implemented because it outcompetes others just doesn't match my model on multiple levels. I don't think it would be worth paying the kind of prices the stack would be willing to pay, in order to align a generic corporation. It's not even clear that this level of anti-maze would be an advantage in that spot, given the general reaction to such a thing on many levels and the need for deep interaction with mazes. And it's often the case that there are big wins, and people just don't know about them, or they know about them but for some reason don't take them. I've stopped finding such things weird.

You can also do it backwards-only if you're too scared of this - award it to people who you already are confident in now, and don't extend it later to avoid corruption. It would be a good start on many goals.

In any case, yes, I have thought a lot about the practical problems, most of which such people already face much worse in other forms, and have many many thoughts about them, and the problem is hard. But not 'give up this doesn't actually help' kinds of hard.

Not going to go deeper than that here. If I decide to expand on the problem I'll do it with more posts (which are not currently planned).

Create a Full Alternative Stack

The point is to compromise one's interactions with society in the sense that you want to change what they are. But in this frame, the idea is that your interactions were previously being compromised by the worry that some day you may need to extract money from society / mazes, and this seeks to prevent that.

Consider the Thiel fellowship. Yes, it helps people get their start, but their orders are to go out into the world and start a normal business and raise money the normal way. It's better than letting those people go to college, so yay fellowship, but it's totally not this thing. It was a way to let kids who knew that college was a trap skip college. Or at least, that's my understanding.

Thiel literally proposed funding me in the full stack way at a meeting - not personally for life, but for a proposed company, which was going to be biotech-related so it was much closer to normal procedure. He got the logic. But when he came back to his social situation he couldn't follow through. Biotech has to work this way for companies because of hold-up problems and dependencies, you agree on the later rounds in advance with criteria for unlocking them. It's not the full full stack, but it's the core idea that you need to be secure from concerns that would bury the real operation if you had to worry about them.

Creating a new entire community in a new location makes perfect sense, and is one good way to consider implementation.

Have epistemic conditions always been this bad?
Dr Schrecker tells us that as a professional historian she "feels comfortable" with the evidence that it is true.

I love this line. It could not have come more straight out of Moral Mazes.

Potential Ways to Fight Mazes

You are not wrong. Fixed in original. Mods please reimport.

2018 Review: Voting Results!

Easy to make it possible with explicit quadratic voting but not interpret people who use non-quadratic voting to cast only 1-3 votes in this way.

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