[-]pharadae3y201

There's a lot to unpack here.

First, european union law like the GDPR works in the form, that they cannot directly make laws for every european member, but each european nation has to transform the european law into national law. So the implementation of the irish GDPR is different than from the german GDPR and while the general idea behind a european law must be abided by the nations, each one has their own pecularities. The german GDPR law is called the DSGVO and since I'm from germany, I'm most knowledgable there. So some of my comments might be wrong under GDPR, but completely valid for the DSGVO.

Under GDPR, every time a service (in this context the homepage) is requesting or using data sent from the client (the browser), the service owner has to have written down and abides to a set of privacy rules, which govern

what data falls under this set of rules,
how long the data is being processed and stored,
(if used without consent) if it has a legitimate purpose to use the data for this purpose, and
that they thought about and excluded a less privacy-invasive way of processing the data

All of these have been more or less required before as well, but with the GDPR, the service is also responsible for each and every 3rd party data processor they use (e.g. doubleclick as an ad provider). So if they send data over to a 3rd party, and they mishandle the data or use it for a different purpose than originally stated, the original service is now responsible - with hefty fines attached.

Having said that - let's get back to your points.

Are services allowed to use data for personalization of content (specifically ads) without consent?

Yes and no - Direct Marketing is a legitimate interest according to the GDPR, so you would not need to have consent. But: Is there a less privacy-invasive way of processing the data? Yes there is, not serving personalized ads, but only according to the (unpersonalized) content of the page. And, there's the right to object to direct marketing, so this has to be taken care of somehow as well.

This is what Der Spiegel and other news websites have been basing their modus operandi on: Give the user the choice to either consent to personalized ads, or to pay for not seeing ads.

Are services allowed to use data for security purposes (specifically fraud detection)?

Yes, they are. They can collect and use pretty much every bit of data they can generate and get from the browser. There is no less privacy-invasive way, because it's a everylasting race between fraudsters and counter-measures.

But: The data must be used for this purpose only. They must not be used to ads, personalization, login, marketing, whatsoever - or they risk a hefty fine. When Facebook used the 2 factor authorization phone number to send out ads, they were violating the GDPR and will hopefully get a hefty fine for it.

Can websites finance themselves without personalized ads?

Most likely. Non-targeted ads only reduce their effectiveness by around 4% in contrast to targeted / personalized ads - which makes sense, since if e.g. a user is reading an article on topic X, they are already interested in the topic. So an ad for people interested in topic X is already very likely to be effective.

(as said before: websites are still allowed to use any data for security purposes like fraud detection.)

Why are big companies like Microsoft being sued for data usage for fraud detection anyway?

Because they are trying to push the boundaries and how far they can go again, and the courts (and politicians) are using the GDPR to punish them for it.

Most big companies still have no clue what data is being requested, stored for what purpose, distributed to whom, etc. - which was one of the reasons the GDPR initiative was started in the first place.

Example Microsoft: after a brief period of being privacy-concerned, Windows 10 is much more "androidized" in terms of spying on the user, pushing bloatware and ads, installing invasive features without consent, and trying to trick the user into giving consent for more data. It's e.g. not possible to simply say "I don't want to create a microsoft account" (which would enable Microsoft to track the user better) - only "I don't want to create a microsoft account at the moment (we'll ask you again in two weeks)".

I predict, that the previous rulings will be thrown out at the upper courts and that no smaller websites (even if they are Der Spiegel) would be sued for using data for fraud detection - assuming that they are not using the data for other purposes.

Are other means of financing websites possible?

Sometimes, yes - main question is the availability of competition (scarcity) and the relation a company has to their users. Spotify, Amazon Music Unlimited, Apple Music, etc. all have no problem of raising money from users through a subscription model, because a lot of music is simpy not available for free without a payment option. Even free "user-content" on sites like Youtube, where a lot of music is uploaded illegally from users, the content-id system is effective (if an artist or their publisher don't want their music to be available there).

Other services like Patreon, SubscribeStar, Substack, Locals, etc. show, that people are willing to pay creators just for the content they create. This only seems to work sufficiently well for parasocial relationships - most bigger Youtube creators are effectively businesses with dozens of freelancers or employees, but focusing everything on one person for the parasocial relationship.

Conclusion

Ads can be GDPR-compliant, don't have to be personalized and their fraud detection is a separate legitimate interest.

[-]michaelkleber3y193

The "don't have to be personalized" part of your argument rests on the "4% less revenue" statistic from Marotta et al. (2019), but that seems to be a very bad source. Here's Garrett Johnson's literature review slide: https://twitter.com/garjoh_canuck/status/1318989360407236609.

Of the six studies, five (from academia, industry, and government sources) come to the conclusion that removing personalization would cost websites somewhere between 50% and 70% of their revenue, and one concludes 4%. Moreover, the Marotta paper rests on subtle statistical methods aimed at the problem "We have a lot of observational data but we can't run an A/B experiment, so let's (use augmented inverse probability weighting to) figure out what would happen if running the direct experiment were possible." That's a hard but admirable goal. But in the Google paper they actually did run exactly that A/B experiment, the very same one that Marotta et al were trying to predict, and they got 52% rev loss instead.

There are good reasons to be skeptical of the 50%-70% range — in particular those measurements are all happening in an environment where personalized advertising channels still exist, so they don't get at global equilibrium after the forced behavior changes that would come from personalization going away across the board. From observing what happened to ads prices on iOS in recent years, I'd say it seems very plausible that the stable outcome would be more like 40% instead of 50%-70%.

Motivation&Disclaimer: I'm https://mathstodon.xyz/@Log3overLog2, and I work at Google on the Chrome & Android effort to move to a much more private way to do ads personalization. So I'm deeply vested in this question.

But the 4% number is quite unsupportable given the data at hand. And telling most websites in the EU that they will lose ~half of their revenue is not an appealing prospect.

[-]pharadae3y10

Good points, I'll look into the other studies at another time. I remember a german newspaper actually switching completely to non-targeted ads after their own experiment, but can't find the source anymore. I'll comment it here, if I find it again.

Thanks especially for your transparency on your Motivation and Disclaimer.

[-]Dagon3y40

In the US, California, Colorado, and a few other states have passed similar privacy laws. What's super-unclear is just how thoroughly it'll be enforced. A whole lot of GDPR compliance is cargo-cult law; do what others seem to be doing and hope it's enough. For ad biz, it's appear to do what you think others are doing, and hope it's enough, while still mostly business as usual.

There have been a number of fines issued, as you say, and I don't know of any big ones actually paid. There's a lot of arguing and appealing before we really know what's a hard requirement, what's a requirement only if you're in the crosshairs, and what's a pretty flexible guideline that won't matter unless you're both big enough to notice AND egregious enough in violation.

I'd bet on the industry surviving.

[-]ChristianKl3y20

There are two different fraud problems. One problem is about the website selling the ads engaging in fraud while the other is about third parties engaging in fraud.

When it comes to preventing the website selling the ads from engaging in fraud, there are various tools available that involve having trusted third parties. There's no necessity for solving the trust problem by giving the company that buys the ads any access to consumer data.

This could involve third-party audits or for websites that run on a cloud service a trusted module of that cloud service that's outside of the control of the website.

If Google and co argue that they are so scummy that no reasonable advertiser is going to trust them even if they pay third-party audits to get more trustworthy, I don't think their European lobbyists will have much success by arguing that they are so scummy that they need to allow advertisers access to the customer data.

[-]jefftk3y30

Auditing publisher logs helps with deliberate falsification, but it's easy to have as fraud that's plausibly deniable and maybe even not on purpose.

Let's say you're a publisher and you want more people to come to your site. You look around and you find someone who says they run a newsletter and would be willing to include links to your stories for a small fee. When you multiply out the cost per visitor this looks like a pretty good deal; you say yes. This traffic turns out to be entirely bots, but you can't tell because we got rid of ad fraud detection.

[-]ChristianKl3y20

There are two different issues here:

Is the newsletter provider allowed to have ads that request something from the website of the advertiser so that the advertiser essentially gets a list of all people who read the newsletter?
For those people that click on the link, what is the advertiser to do to investigate their identities?

The first one is about trusting the person who publishes the newsletter.

The second one is about distinguishing bots from non-bots on your own website. Google ReCapture is a technology that you can use for that. Cloudflare seems to do something similar.

It's a debate to argue whether Google ReCapture technology itself violates the GDPR and maybe it does, but I could easily see allowing that technology while not allowing 1).

When it comes to privacy and data located in the US, it's worth mentioning that the US could decide to pass laws that protect the data of EU citizens the same way it does protect US citizen data. As long as the US has a legal framework that's abusive to EU citizens it makes sense that there's a cost to pay for that abusive legal framework. Tech companies that complain about paying that cost are free to lobby the US government to pass laws to be less abusive to EU citizens.

[-]jefftk3y30

Sorry, I think your 1 and 2 are responding to a different scenario than I was trying to describe. Which is partly my fault for introducing something confusing in a relatively terse way. Let me take a step back and describe the scenario in more detail:

You are a publisher: you run a website like cnn.com.
You negotiate with advertisers for space on your site. Perhaps you make a deal with Coke where, based on the amount of traffic you claim to have, they are going to pay you $10,000 for some placement in the month of January.
Traffic comes to your website from a range of places: search engines, social media sharing, etc. Some of this is "paid" traffic, in that you have placed ads or otherwise compensated people for sending traffic your way, and there is also "organic" traffic, which, where no money changes hands. Even though you don't directly make money from your visitors, as long as you make more money from them seeing your ads while reading articles on your site than it costs for you to bring the visitors in, you come out ahead.

In this scenario, you are primarily a publisher, but you are also an advertiser in that you pay for some of your traffic. My newsletter example was describing a kind of paid traffic you might buy, and what you thought you were buying was a simple "they link to my articles in the newsletter, disclosing that they're sponsored".

Today, the incentives in this market are reasonably balanced. If the newsletter is shady they want to inflate their numbers by including some amount of automated traffic, but if they do very much of this the automated traffic will trigger ad fraud detection, run on behalf of your advertisers (Coke, etc.). As a publisher, you really want to avoid this; it's very painful to get dropped by networks or lose direct deal customers over fraud even if it was only negligence on your part and not intentional abuse.

In a world where there's no fraud detection system protecting the ultimate advertiser (Coke), however, this feedback loop is broken. In the newsletter can get more and more bold with their inclusion of automated traffic, and Coke doesn't know if they're buying real traffic or not.

Running ReCaptcha or other bot detection technology on your website is what I'm talking about here, and is what I thought was more likely prohibited by the GDPR than not when writing the post. (Though in response to Kleber's comment on Mastodon I've updated downward somewhat.)

[-]pharadae3y10

The problem of inflated ads is currently very real for bigger players, who rely on paid traffic - I've worked with a company which did buy large quantities. They were employing several employees to just check and negotiate with the ad-publishers each month about the fraud rates, because the performance (meaning the chosen method - i.e. CPM, CPC, CPL, CPA) were vastly different between the ad-publishers, and it didn't make sense.

So there definetly was fraud involved, but it was extremely hard (and expensive) to weed fraudulent advertisers out.

Your scenario of an email newsletter is a special case, because it's virtually impossible to introduce any form of client run code to check for fraud, and can only start your fraud detection after the traffic hit your website.

[-]ChristianKl3y00

I think it is questionable whether it's good for the ecosystem when CNN pays third parties for paid traffics. I would prefer it if CNN focuses on publishing articles that people actually want to read so that CNN doesn't need to rely on paid traffic.

LESSWRONG
LW