This is cross-posted from my blog and I interviewed him for a general audience rather than LessWrong people.

I was lucky enough to interview Bill O’Rourke.

Imagine you’re on a plane to Russia to become the new president of an aluminum factory. Conditions are abysmal. People are dying every year due to unimaginable safety conditions. Corruption is everywhere from the mayor on down. You’ll have to deal with oligarchs who’ve assassinated people. You’ll even be robbed by the cops.

What would you do? How would you fix things?

This is the position Bill O’Rourke found himself in.

I first met Bill when we toured the Carrie Furnaces in Pittsburgh. I liked Bill right away and knew I needed to record an interview with him.

We talked about everything from growing up in Steel City in its heyday, to teaching Delta Force operators about ethics, to turning around a Russian factory that killed five people a year, to Putin stealing a Super Bowl ring.

Bill has not only led an incredibly interesting life but he’s also a man of integrity and character (and that’s something I would rarely say!).

I interviewed him for a general audience but some talking points that may be more interesting to rationalists:

* He’s been in a unique position to face real ethical questions with strong incentives to act in less ethical ways and was successful in solving the problems

* The differences between Bill’s ethical framework and most rationalists

* Improving systems like dangerous factories, and how Bill used advisors when he wasn’t a subject matter expert

Enjoy the interview!

Introduction: How I Met Bill

0:00

Introduction

2:17

Bill’s background – storied childhood and career!

5:18

Bill’s book: The Business Ethics Field Guide

6:20

Adapting his book for Special Forces
Ethical dilemmas in the military

8:13

How Bill and I met
Why Bill gives tours of Carrie Furnaces

9:38

Family history and working in the steel industry

White hat status symbol

Ironically not being encouraged to go to law school

10:40

Bill’s family, and where he is in the sibling lineup

His dad teaching him ethics, no profanity

How his dad dealt with bribes

13:57

Did Bill play basketball? Being coached by his dad - anti-nepotism

15:13

Did he ever feel like his goody two shoes dad was too ethical?

Didn’t know he was poor

16:10

Being an altar boy, did he have any priest issues?

Was a Boy Scout, any issues there?

Vietnam War

16:44

What made Bill want to go into the military?

Fear of Vietnam, mother cried

Draft lottery

Captain of the Pistol Team

18:11

The Deer Hunter

Why didn’t he stay an engineer?

Going to law school

19:48

Law school doesn’t have any answers

20:37

What does he think of patent law?

Edison’s lightbulb

Working on trademarks, first trademark in China

Patent trolls

Working at Alcoa

24:30

Why did he work at Alcoa

Getting promoted

Paul O’Neill

Chief Financial Officer, Rick

Integrity

27:34

What was it like when outsider Paul O'Neill took over Alcoa?

People in line to take over were pissed they didn’t get it

Safety was number one

The most enlightened leader he’d ever seen

The best company in the world

How fast can you close the doors?

Only Yahoo was as fast

31:11

Becoming the CIO of the company

Going from 108 data centers to two: Is that the best? How can you be the best?

Getting excited about coming into work

Discretionary effort: plus or minus 20

32:27

Moving from a closed to open office pissed off a lot of people

Escalators, not elevators

Everyone had same 9x9 cubicle with same furniture

10 design principles

34:34

Paul must have been pretty polarizing

He started attracting rather than polarizing

Working in Russia

34:58

Abysmal Russian conditions

Bribery and corruption

Where do you start?

If you get safety right, you’ll get everything right

Incident rate 10x higher

5 people killed on average for 50 years

1 or 2 fatality risks a month, stopped looking after finding 2500 fatality risks

37:49

Why did he go to Russia?

Alcoa’s growth

Switch from plastic to aluminum

40:42

How did he prepare for Russia?

It was extremely overwhelming

Trying to meet all the new employees

41:39

Did he feel like an outsider?

He had a translator, a bodyguard, and a driver

Being robbed by the police – Who do you call?

43:01

Expectation of corruption: bribery to get accepted into university

Not paying corruption, didn’t break even until the 4th year

Pressure to give into corruption (even the mayor wanted it!)

Why was Bill selected?

Bringing values into Russia

How did other companies handle Russian culture?

Coca-Cola okay with bribing; Shell and Exxon, not

Smaller companies have to deal with the Russian mafia

47:24

Did Bill know he would never have to budge?

It’s in the cities interest to have his company employing people

The federal government and Russia itself benefiting

Damage of companies pulling out because of the war now

48:33

How do he and his Russian wife feel about the war?

Russian and Ukrainian corruption

Companies pulling out of Russia

Energy exports propping them up

52:45

Meeting Putin

Putin steals Bob Kraft’s Super Bowl ring

53:32

Bob Kraft visiting the Tree of Life synagogue

Bill running the Tree of Life synagogue after the shooting

Muslims and Jews positive relations

Christchurch shooting

Touring the synagogue with one of the survivors

More about Bill

57:38

Did Bill realize he was exceptional when he was young?

Bill got good grades and got awards

Bill is so humble

Bill’s personal mission statements

59:41

Bill mentors soldiers 

Americans Corporate Partners

Jake Voelker and Voodoo Brewery

Joe Grant and PNC Bank

102:48

Does Bill identify as an extrovert?

Bill goes to a bar

Bill talks to strangers at the airport

Thomas Edison

1:03:18

The magic of learning the stories people have and how things work

Where does electricity come from?

Henry Ford, Greenfield Village, Edison & Ford Winter Estates in Fort Myers

Historical figures interacting

1:05:06 

Edison’s impressive resume

Michelangelo vs Da Vinci, Edison vs Tesla

John is an Edison defender

Edison, Westinghouse, war of the currents

Electrifying elephants and bear fights

Bill’s Heroes and Family

1:06:31

If you could have dinner with anyone, who would it be?

Bill’s eleven heroes

Bill McDonough

Yuri Gagarin

Neil Armstrong’s humility

Thomas Jefferson the architect

Mother Theresa

Gandhi

Pope John Paul II (and Bill’s wife’s gracious sacrifice!)

The Pirates Pierogies

His dad and his trip to Annapolis and the WWII Monument

His impressive Matryoshka doll collection

1:13:56

Was it hard moving his wife over from Russia?

Did his family accept her?

1:14:55

A Special Operations Forces Ethics Field Guide

Cute kids’ drawing

Signing John’s copy of his book

Old School Values

1:15:42

Interlude: Bill’s old school values

Deontologist vs consequentialist

Kobayashi Maru

Rationalist, Effective Altruists

Applied examples where you could actually see yourself using his advice

1:16:58

Bill’s old school values and what he thinks of modern society

Wokeness, losing traditions

George Washington, historical figures weren’t perfect, important to learn from them

George Washington deserves more respect, could have been King

Judging people by modern day standards vs the standards of the time

Bill has hope, is impressed with the next generation

Hearing negative news stories, meeting kids helps combat the cynicism

Ethical Dilemmas

1:20:06

Asking Bill ethical questions

The Trolley Problem

Bill doesn’t like those types of problems. Bottom line: at least do something!

Recognize you have an ethical issue

What about people lacking discernment?

The importance of reputation

Reputation as a defense

The cost of awkwardness

1:25:13

What is Bill’s model of people? Are people inherently good or bad?

Dennis Praeger and Bill have opposite models

Everybody comes in at a 10/10 with Bill. Lose points from unethical acts

Important to admit mistakes to yourself

Compliance vs agency

Lessons from Paul O’Neill: What would the best company in the world do?

Legal culpability mindset vs moral compass pointing true north

Teach people that compliance is your floor, not your ceiling

People want to invest in socially responsible companies

1:31:32

More timely ethical questions: Vaccine mandates? Politics in the workplace?

Paul O’Neill’s “just the facts” approach to climate change

You shouldn’t be able to predict political beliefs based on one hobby but you can

Bill is an environmentalist

Bill gets a Cadillac LYRIQ

Where does your electric car get energy from? Coal!!

What does Bill think of nuclear?

John talks about scale

1:40:59

Would Bill go to space?

Weird that nuclear isn’t on the liberal agenda

Bill would be on both sides of the political aisle - shows he’s more of a thinker

Movies

1:41:44 

What is Bill’s favorite movie of all time?

Top Gun: Maverick

Jurassic World Dominion

Groundhog Day

Mission Impossible movies

James Bond (Bill and John were skeptical of Craig at first)

Russia Now

1:43:43

Technological development is amazing

How long would the trip from Michigan to Pittsburgh have taken before?

Eisenhower’s interstate system (Russia’s highway system sucks!)

Bill is able to talk to his wife in Russia

1:44:34

Is it crazy in Russia now?

Does Bill get along with his wife’s family?

Do his wife’s kids still live in Russia?

Sketchy advice for getting to the US

1:46:48

Bill wouldn’t let his kids download music

1:47:08

Bill advising Bob Dole on not giving oligarch Oleg Deripaska a visa

Was Bill ever afraid of getting hurt?

The Russian mafia was who you had to worry about hurting you (Alcoa was too big)

The cops robbed Bill

Bill would be detained in airports (longest detention: 9 hours)

If you stick to your guns, it’ll pay off

Smartest Person of All Time

1:48:59

Who does Bill think is the smartest person of all time?

Bill likes JFK

John will say his moon speech when he’s trying to do something hard

Kennedy gave hope, current president doesn’t

Those two are our best candidates??

Did Bill ever think about politics?

Bill’s brother Tom was involved, wanted to save drowning black kids

Genesis Holmes

O’Rourke have a family safety record

Outro: Feeling Less Cynical

1:52:52

Parting thoughts on Bill

I am too cynical and believe in the best predictive power

Bill makes me feel less cynical about life

If you enjoyed this, check out my interview with Nectome CEO Robert McIntyre:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/s2N75ksqK3uxz9LLy/interview-with-nectome-ceo-robert-mcintyre-brain

I have a lot more interviews already shot that I'm in the process of editing so look out for more!

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