FWIW, I've played around a bunch with gpt-oss (both versions) and my initial reaction has been "wow, this is really bad. Like, almost Llama 4 levels of bad."
Yes, it looks good on the system card, the benchmark scores seem impressive... but that was true of Llama 4 too. And in both cases, when I actually tried out the model, I quickly discovered that it was janky and unreliable to the point of being basically useless.
The lack of world knowledge is very real and very noticeable. gpt-oss feels less like "an open-weights o4-mini" and more like "the minimal set of narrow knowledge/skills necessary to let a model match o4-mini on the usual benchmarks, with virtually every other capability degraded to a level far below the current SOTA/frontier, in some cases to a level that hasn't been SOTA since the pre-GPT-3 days."
And not only is it very ignorant, it's ignorant about its own ignorance, leading to those high hallucination rates mentioned by various commentators. You simply can't trust anything this model says, unless you are literally asking a question from a benchmark like GPQA. (Or possibly if you're asking a new question that's "similar enough" to the ones on benchmarks, but how would you know what "similar enough" means?)
As a demo, at the end of this comment I've included answers to "Who is Zvi Mowshowitz?" from gpt-oss-120b and from Qwen3 235B A22B Thinking 2507. Neither is perfectly accurate, but the Qwen3 answer gets the broad strokes right and only confabulates in the details, whereas gpt-oss-120b seems merely aware that you're some sort of famous tabletop gamer, and invents a whole different guy fitting that vague description.
The models also have various other weird and/or annoying quirks:
I'm skeptical of your idea that Chinese labs will find these models useful for distillation.
Taking Qwen as an example, they already have a (released, open-weights!) model that stands neck-to-neck with gpt-oss-120b on the benchmarks where gpt-oss-120b looks good, while also not being a min-maxed deep-fried mess on everything else. Sure, that model is has ~2x as many params (and ~4x as many active params) as gpt-oss-120b, but... so what?
The difference is not (I think) that gpt-oss reaches some new height of ~deep intelligent reasoning~, it's that gpt-oss skimps on everything the usual reasoning benchmarks don't test. Why would Qwen get any value out of the sketchy, untrustworthy outputs from this benchmaxxed glitchfest, when they already have their own mature pipelines for distillation and for RL? Yeah, you can churn out the data faster, but that doesn't matter if you don't want it in the first place.
And the same goes for DeepSeek and others, I think.
One other thing -- skimming over the Claude and o3-pro chats you shared, I noticed several glaring errors. I realize you are not blindly trusting these models, but using their outputs more like "anecdata" aggregated alongside things people say on twitter and so on. But even then, if I were you I would be wary of using these models even as "anecdata" sources on this kind of topic going forward.
Examples (these are the ones I spotted at a glance, not necessarily the only ones present):
EDIT: I forgot to mention this one, even though it's possibly the funniest. o3-pro says that gpt-oss "advanc[es] Chinese parity with GPT‑4‑class performance by ~6–9 months." Later it puts 55% probability on "Chinese labs match[ing] GPT‑4 on open evals by end‑2026." Like, dude, o3, they already did that. In 2024.
Here are the "Who is Zvi Mowshowitz?" samples, as promised.
These are what I got on my first try with each of the two models. Performance on this question is representative of what I've seen more generally.
question: "Who is Zvi Mowshowitz?" | model: gpt-oss-120b | provider: Fireworks
**Zvi Mowshowitz** is a well‑known figure in the modern tabletop‑gaming community, best known for his incisive, long‑form board‑game reviews and for a handful of original game designs.
---
### What he does
| Role | What it means | Where you’ll see it |
|------|---------------|---------------------|
| **Board‑game reviewer & columnist** | Writes deeply analytical, often several‑thousand‑word reviews that combine strategy analysis, design theory, and personal anecdotes. | Primarily on **BoardGameGeek** (his profile has thousands of reviews and a very high “author rating”), and on his personal blog **Zvi’s Blog**. |
| **Game designer** | Has designed or co‑designed a few published games, most notably **“Möb”** (a tile‑placement/area‑control game released by Rio Grande Games in 2019). | The games appear in hobby‑store catalogs and on sites like BoardGameGeek. |
| **Consultant & speaker** | Advises publishers, designers, and retailers on game design, market positioning, and community outreach. | Occasionally gives talks at conventions (e.g., GenCon, Spiel), and contributes essays to industry‑focused publications. |
| **Mathematician / programmer** | Holds a Ph.D. in **computer science / mathematics** (University of Texas at Austin) and has published research on probabilistic algorithms and combinatorial game theory. | His academic papers are indexed in IEEE/ACM libraries; the technical background informs his analytical style. |---
### Why he’s notable
1. **Depth of analysis** – Zvi’s reviews go far beyond “fun factor.” He often breaks a game down into its core mechanics, explains optimal strategies, evaluates component quality, discusses the designer’s intent, and even places the game in a broader historical context. This level of detail is rare and has set a high standard for serious board‑game criticism.
2. **Influence on the community** – Because his reviews are long, well‑argued, and posted on the world’s biggest board‑game database (BGG), they are frequently cited by other reviewers, designers, and players. A positive (or negative) Zvi review can noticeably affect a game’s sales trajectory.
3. **Design contributions** – Though best known as a critic, Zvi has also put his own ideas into practice. *Möb* (2019) is praised for its elegant, abstract strategy and for showcasing a “pure” tile‑placement mechanic without theme‑overload, reflecting the design philosophies he espouses in his writing.
4. **Thought leadership** – Through blog posts and conference talks, Zvi frequently discusses broader topics such as *the economics of board‑game publishing, the role of community feedback, the importance of transparent rating systems,* and *the future of hybrid digital‑analog games.* His viewpoints often spark lively debate among hobbyists and industry professionals alike.
---
### Quick biography
| Item | Details |
|------|---------|
| **Full name** | Zvi Mowshowitz |
| **Born** | 1976 (approx.) – exact birthdate not publicly disclosed |
| **Education** | B.S. in Mathematics (University of Texas at Austin) → Ph.D. in Computer Science (UT‑Austin), research on probabilistic algorithms |
| **Career** | After completing his doctorate, Zvi worked as a software engineer / consultant, then shifted focus to full‑time board‑game writing and design around 2010. |
| **Major publications** | • Hundreds of BoardGameGeek reviews (e.g., *Terraforming Mars*, *Gloomhaven*, *Scythe*) <br> • Blog series “The Art of the Review” (2014‑present) <br> • Academic papers on Monte‑Carlo tree search & combinatorial game theory |
| **Games designed** | • **Möb** (2019, Rio Grande Games) <br> • Several prototypes and unpublished designs that have been play‑tested at conventions |
| **Public presence** | • BoardGameGeek profile (user “Zvi” – >30 k reviews) <br> • Twitter/X: @ZviMowshowitz <br> • Guest speaker at GenCon, Spiel, and various “Game Design” workshops |---
### TL;DR
Zvi Mowshowitz is a mathematician‑turned board‑game reviewer, writer, and indie designer whose long, highly analytical reviews dominate the BoardGameGeek community, whose design work includes the abstract strategy game *Möb*, and whose essays and talks shape how many hobbyists and publishers think about game design, criticism, and the business of tabletop gaming.
question: "Who is Zvi Mowshowitz?" | model: Qwen3 235B A22B Thinking 2507 | provider: OpenRouter auto
Zvi Mowshowitz is an American writer, game theorist, and former competitive **Magic: The Gathering** player, best known for his contributions to the **rationalist community** and his blog **"Don't Worry About the Vase" (DWWAV)**. Here's a concise overview of his background and work:
### Key Points:
1. **Rationalist Community Involvement**:
- He is an active participant in the **LessWrong** and broader rationality/EA (Effective Altruism) communities, where he analyzes topics like **game theory**, **decision-making**, **economics**, and **political strategy** through a rigorous, analytical lens.
- His blog posts often dissect real-world scenarios (e.g., elections, social dynamics) using frameworks like **mechanism design** and **incentive structures**.2. **Magic: The Gathering Expertise**:
- Zvi is a well-respected **Magic** theorist and former professional player, having competed in high-level tournaments. He authored influential strategy articles and contributed to foundational works like **"The Prosperous Heart"** (part of *The Duelist* magazine’s series) and **"The Theory of Magic"** (unpublished but widely cited in the community).
- His insights on **deck-building**, **metagame analysis**, and **psychological aspects of gameplay** are still referenced by players today.3. **Notable Contributions**:
- **"Mediocrat Theory"**: He proposed that modern political systems often produce leaders who excel at navigating bureaucratic incentives rather than solving complex problems—a concept he calls **"Mediocracy."**
- **Critical Analyses**: His critiques of **AI safety proposals**, **social media dynamics**, and **economic policies** are frequently shared in tech and rationalist circles.4. **Professional Background**:
- Works as a **software engineer** (primarily in the tech industry) but is largely independent of academia, focusing on freelance writing and consulting.5. **Online Presence**:
- Active on **Twitter/X** (@ZviMowshowitz), where he engages with topics like AI alignment, politics, and behavioral economics.
- His blog, [Don't Worry About the Vase](https://thezvi.wordpress.com/), serves as a hub for his long-form analysis.### Why He Matters:
Zvi bridges niche communities—**game theory**, **rationality**, and **competitive gaming**—with accessible, incisive writing. While not a household name, he’s influential among readers of **LessWrong**, **Slate Star Codex** (now Astral Codex Ten), and **Effective Altruism forums**.If you’re exploring rationalist thought or Magic strategy, his work is a valuable resource—and he’s known for being unafraid to challenge popular assumptions in both spaces. 🎴🧠
Darn. I was hoping to use the 20b model at home in a no-internet setup, seems like that's far less valuable now. I was thinking of writing some harness that's connected to my local Wikipedia copy, via kiwix-server, wonder if that could improve the lack of knowledge/hallucinations.
I would still recommend trying gpt-oss-20b and seeing how it works for you, and also comparing it against other recent models around that size from other model series like Qwen 3 or (if you don't need reasoning) Gemma 3.
Unfortunately, any model around that scale is going to have noticeable gaps in its knowledge of the world. Which model will work best -- and whether any model will work well enough to be worth using -- depends a lot on exactly what you want to accomplish, and there's no substitute for trying out a few and deciding which one you prefer.
Thanks, very helpful!
And yes, I noticed most of the glaring errors you pointed out in o3-pro and Claude's analyses, I interpreted it essentially as a strong message of 'if the GPT-OSS models are improvements they will matter but I shouldn't assume they are improvements, and if not they won't matter.'
Moderately Sized Models
For a while OpenAI has promised it is going to release a state of the art open model. They delayed for a bit, but they delivered. We now have GPT-OSS 20b and 120b. I was hoping for smaller, ideally something that could run on a standard phone. That’s a compelling use case where you need an open model, and the smaller the model the less risk you are running of both malicious use and also distillation. I am glad they capped out at 120b.Introducing GPT-OSS
The headline claim is bold: Performance similar to o4-mini. This is the official announcement page. Here are links to GPT-OSS-120B and GPT-OSS-20B on Hugging Face, here is the page on GitHub. They are under the Apache 2.0 license, so essentially no restrictions.The Model Card
This is a unique model card. How did OpenAI deal with the challenges of an open model? The historical way to deal with these challenges is to ignore them. What would happen if someone engaged in malicious fine tuning of the model? What does the threat model look like in the real world? Are you seriously pretending that any of this safety work will hold up to two days of the internet working to remove it? When Meta or DeepSeek release a new open weights model, they don’t stop to ask in any way visible to us. At best we get quick evaluation of what the model can do in its current form after minimal effort. Then they irrevocably ship and see what happens. OpenAI long ago realized that, despite their name, doing that seemed rather deeply irresponsible and foolish, and stopped releasing open weights models. That’s effective. Now they have caved under various pressures and released open weights models. They do recognize that this is an inherently dangerous thing to do on various levels. If you must go down this road, this seems like the right rule, if getting different answers would have meant not releasing. You have:- An absolute threshold, High capability, beyond which this is not okay.
- A relative threshold, where you’re not willing to substantially make things worse.
And- You do all of this with the adversarially fine-tuned version, trying your best to mimic actual conditions, as per OpenAI’s stated approach to open weights.
This does mean that as irresponsible actors ratchet up their capabilities, you get to do so as well, and one has to worry about the functional definition of ‘substantially.’ It still seems reasonable to say that once someone else has made the situation [X] dangerous, matching them doesn’t make it that much worse.Our Price Cheap
These models are very small and cheap. If these are 20b and 120b, r1 is 671b.On Your Marks
The STEM scores are excellent.Mundane Safety Evaluations
An open model means you have more distinct scenarios to consider. You both want to know how well your safety measures hold up under more ‘normal’ conditions, especially when someone serves up your model to users. Then you also want to check what happens if a malicious actor is trying to fine tune and otherwise maximize how much the model can get up to no good, including the potential of them to lose control of that situation.Preparedness Framework Evaluations
Finally, someone is at least attempting to take this seriously. So what was found? Their answer was that as of right now the answer is no. I dunno, man:Good Habits
Doing the fine-tuning as part of open model safety testing is mandatory. If you don’t do it, did you even safety test? I wouldn’t say ‘as responsibly as possible,’ but I would say ‘as responsibly as one could in practice expect.’ Fine-tuning also seems very worth doing on closed models. If we can make testing on similarly fine-tuned versions the gold standard for safety testing, even of closed models, that would be amazing.Distillation
The danger that is not mentioned by OpenAI in the model card is distillation, and the ability to reverse engineer OpenAI’s training methods and ‘secret sauce.’ They provide raw, unfiltered reasoning traces of varying sizes, and models that for many purposes are clearly superior to previous open alternatives especially given their size. The cost of very good synthetic data just plummeted, and also the Chinese will build directly on top of OSS, either alone or as part of hybrids. OpenAI even released a guide on how to fine-tune their model. Helpful. The best counterargument to this is that if the models are not good enough, then no one is going to want to use them. I worry we might be in a spot where the models are very good in some places where distillation will be useful, while not being that good in other places and thus not seeing much practical use as part of some ‘tech stack.’ Consider what Claude Opus 4.1 said about this. Or what o3-Pro says about this. This is what I consider the main practical cost of this release. Indeed, it would be highly unsurprising to see the following happen:- OpenAI releases GPT-OSS.
- Chinese companies rush to distill, build upon and hybridize GPT-OSS, and reverse engineer what OpenAI did in large part, resulting in an explosion of models in the coming months.
- The gap between Chinese models and American models narrows.
- These models are cited as evidence that ‘the Chinese are catching up,’ and that ‘our export controls have failed’ and so on.
Also note that OpenAI did a virtuous thing of not training GPT-OSS directly on its reasoning traces, but someone then working with GPT-OSS need not be so virtuous. What happens when these people start using The Most Forbidden Technique and direct benchmark performance starts short term improving? I think that, even if we entirely discount the marginal risk of direct malicious use, which is very much a real tail risk, OpenAI made a huge mistake releasing these models, and that everyone who pushed OpenAI to release these models in the name of an ‘American tech stack’ or demanding that America ‘lead in open models’ made a huge mistake. If you are trying to prevent someone from fast following, don’t make it easy to follow. I’d love to be wrong about this, but if it happens, ask yourself now, how would you update? What do you think should be the policy response?Safety First
A number of people noted that the safety guardrails on GPT-OSS are being annoying. That makes sense. If you give the user greater affordances to attack your defenses, you’re going to either need defenses that are by default more annoying, or you’re going to prematurely fold the way most open weight models do and not bother trying. Here’s a curious one. Here’s one claimed way to jailbreak it. There’s also always the Pliny way, which actually took him a nonzero amount of effort. A fun quirk:Other Reactions
As with every new model, I gather reactions, and as usual opinions differ. One important note is that it seems possible to set the model up wrong and get much worse performance. Here is a chart of WeirdML scores, 30% vs. 35% vs. 40% is a big difference. You can see OSS-20b and OSS-120b on the left at ~35% and ~40%, on the cost-performance frontier.Hit Me Up I’m Open
It feels to me a lot like OpenAI got gaslit into releasing open models. Pressure from various sources added up, Twitter vibes were applied, talk of ‘America needs to lead on open models’ was coming from high places, and they felt like the bad guys for the wrong reasons. And they folded. What happens now? It will take a bit to know exactly how good these models are, both at advancing open models including from China, and at becoming a driver of usage. Given their size, the price and speed should be quite good. The reasoning aspect seems strong. Other aspects seem worse. My guess is that there is not that much that these models will be used for, where we are happy they are being used to do it. If you want to use a reasonably priced good model, sir, you can use Gemini 2.5 Flash or GPT-5. If you want the best, you can choose between Opus 4.1, GPT-5 and Gemini 2.5 Pro. If you have security or customization reasons to need an open weight daily driver, in this weight range, are these going to be your pick? I don’t know. Maybe? We shall see.