Thank you for the effort! Strong upvoted.
Quick point to get out of the way: re: the comment that you thought would likely meet my standards, yes, it does; when I hovered over it I saw that I had already (weak) upvoted it.
Here's my attempt to rewrite orthonormal's first comment; what I would have said in orthonormal's shoes, if I were trying to say what I think orthonormal is trying to say.
All right, here comes some subjective experience. I'm offering this up because it seems relevant, and it seems like we should be in wide-net data gathering mode.
I met Geoff Anders at our 2012 CFAR workshop, and my overwhelming impression was "this person wants to be a cult leader." This was based on [specific number of minutes] of conversation.
The impression stuck with me strongly enough that I felt like mentioning it maybe as many as [specific number] of times over the years since, in various conversations. I was motivated enough on this point that it actually somewhat drove a wedge between me and two increasingly-Leverage-enmeshed friends, in the mid-2010's.
I feel like this is important and relevant because it seems like yet again we're in a situation where a bunch of people are going "gosh, such shock, how could we have known?" The delta between my wannabe-cult-leader-detectors and everyone else's is large, and I don't know its source, but the same thing happened with [don't name him, don't summon him], who was booted from the Berkeley community for good reason.
I don't think opaque intuition should be blindly followed, but as everyone is reeling from Zoe's account and trying to figure out how to respond, one possibility I want to promote to attention is hey, maybe take a minute to listen to people like me?
Not as anything definitive, but if I do an honest scan over the past decade, I feel like I'm batting ... 3/5, maybe, with 2 more that are undecided, and the community consensus is doing more like 1/5, and that means there's probably something to be learned from me and people like me.
If you're actually looking for ways to make this better in the future, anyway.
orthonormal P1: Anders seemed like a cult leader/wannabe based on my first impressions, and I willingly incurred social cost to communicate this to others (i.e. this wasn't just idle hostility)
orthonormal P2 [which I inferred using the Principle of Charity]: This is relevant because, separate from the question of whether my detectors are accurate in an absolute sense, they're more accurate than whatever it is all of you are doing
Duncan P1: It's bad when LW upvotes comments that aren't transparent about what they're trying to accomplish and via what channels they're trying to accomplish it
Duncan P2: orthonormal's original comment is somewhat bad in this way; it's owning its content on the surface but the implicature is where most of the power lies; the comment does not on its face say why it exists or what it's trying to do in a way that an autistic ten-year-old could parse (evidence: I felt myself becoming sort of fuzzy/foggy and confused, reading it). As written, I think its main goal is to say "I told you so and also I'm a better judge of things than all of you"? But it doesn't just come right out and say that and then pay for it, the way that I say in the OP above that I'm often smarter than other people in the room (along with an acknowledgement that there's a cost for saying that sort of thing).
I do think that the original version obfuscated some important stuff (e.g. there's a kind of motte-bailey at the heart of "we met at our CFAR workshop"; that could easily imply "we spent fifteen intensely intimate hours in one another's company over four days" or "we spoke for five minutes and then were in the same room for a couple of classes"). That's part of it.
But my concern is more about the delta between the comments' reception. I honestly don't know how to cause individuals voting in a mass to get comments in the right relative positions, but I think orthonormal's being at 48 while Matt's is at 5 is a sign of something wrong.
I think orthonormal's belongs at something like 20, and Matt's belongs at something like 40. I voted according to a policy that attempts to cause that outcome, rather than weak upvoting orthonormal's, as I otherwise would have (its strengths outweigh its flaws and I do think it was a positive contribution).
In a world where lots of LessWrongers are tracking the fuzziness and obfuscation thing, orthonormal's comment gets mostly a bunch of small upvotes, and Matt's gets mostly a bunch of strong upvotes, and they both end up in positive territory but with a clear (ugh) "status differential" that signals what types of contributions we want to more strongly reward.
As for Matt's comment:
Matt's comment in part deserves the strong upvote because it's a high-effort, lengthy comment that tries pretty hard to go slowly and tease apart subtle distinctions and own where it's making guesses and so forth; agnostic of its content my prior a third of the way through was "this will ultimately deserve strong approval."
I don't think most of Matt's comment was on the object level, i.e. comments about Anders and his likelihood of being a cult leader, wannabe or otherwise.
I think that it was misconstrued as just trying to say "pshhh, no!" which is why it hovers so close to zero.
My read of Matt's comment:
Matt P1: It's hard to tell what Ryan and orthonormal are doing
Matt P2: There's a difference between how I infer LWers are reading these comments based on the votes, and how I think LWers ought to interpret them
Matt P3: Here's how I interpret them
Matt P4: Here's a bunch of pre-validation of reasons why I might be wrong about orthonormal, both because I actually might and because I'm worried about being misinterpreted and want to signal some uncertainty/humility here.
Matt P5: Ryan's anecdote seems consistent, to me, with a joke of a form that Geoff Anders makes frequently.
Matt P6: My own personal take is that Geoff is not a cult leader and that the evidence provided by orthonormal and Ryan should be considered lesser than mine (and here's why)
Matt P7-9: [various disclaimers and hedges]
Duncan P1: This comment is good because of the information it presents
Duncan P2: This comment is good because of the way it presents that information, and the way it attempts to make space for and treat well the previous comments in the chain
Duncan P3: This comment is good because it was constructed with substantial effort
Duncan P4: It's bad that comments which are good along three different axes, and bad along none as far as I can see, are ranked way below comments that are much worse along those three axes and also have other flaws (the unclear motive thing).
I don't disagree with either of your glosses, but most notably they missed the above axes. Like, based on your good-faith best-guess as to what I was thinking, I agree with your disagreements with that; your pushback against hypothesized-Duncan who's dinging orthonormal for epistemic thinness is good pushback.
But I think my version of orthonormal's comment is stronger, and while I don't think their original comment was not-worth-writing, such that I'd say "don't contribute if you're not going to put forth as much effort as I did in my rewrite." I think it was less worth writing than the rewrite. I think the rewrite gives a lot more, and ... hypnotizes? ... a lot less.
As for your gloss on Matt's comment specifically, I just straightforwardly like it; if it were its own reply and I saw it when revisiting the thread I would weak or strong upvote it. I think it does exactly the sane-itizing light-shining that I'm pulling for, and that feels to me was only sporadically (and not reliably) present throughout the discussions.
I took however many minutes it's been since you posted your reply to write this. 30-60?
This is an essay about the current state of the LessWrong community, and the broader EA/rationalist/longtermist communities that it overlaps and bridges, inspired mostly by the dynamics around these three posts. The concepts and claims laid out in Concentration of Force, which was originally written as part one of this essay, are important context for the thoughts below.
Summary/thesis, mostly cribbed from user anon03's comment below: In many high-importance and high-emotion discussions on LessWrong, the comments and vote distribution seem very soldier-mindset instead of scout-mindset, and the overall soundness and carefulness of reasoning and discourse seems to me to be much lower than baseline, which already felt a smidge too low. This seems to indicate a failure of the LW community further up the chain (i.e. is a result of a problem, not the problem itself) and I think we should put forth real effort to fix it, and I think the most likely target is something like a more-consistent embrace and enforcement of some very basic rationality discourse norms.
I claim that something has gone a little bit wrong.
And as readers of many of my/other/essays/know, I claim that things going a little bit wrong is often actually quite a big problem.
I am not alone in thinking that the small scale matters. Tiny mental flinches, itty bitty little incentives, things thrown ever so slightly off course (and then never brought back). That small things often have outsized or cumulative effects is a popular view, either explicitly stated or discernible as an underlying assumption in the writings of Eliezer Yudkowsky, Nate Soares, Logan Brienne Strohl, Scott Alexander, Anna Salamon, and Andrew Critch, just to name a few.
Yet I nevertheless feel that I encounter resistance of various forms when attempting to point at small things as if they are important. Resistance rather than cooperative disagreement—impatience, dismissal, often condescension or sneering, sometimes projection and strawmanning.
This is absolutely at least in part due to my own clumsiness and confusion. A better version of me, more skilled at communication and empathy and bridging inferential gaps, would undoubtedly run into these problems less. Would better be able to recruit people's general enthusiasm for even rather dull and tedious and unsexy work, on that split-second level.
But it seems to me that I can't locate the problem entirely within myself. That there's something out there that's Actually Broken, and that it fights back, at least a little bit, when I try to point at it and fix it.
Here's to taking another shot at it.
Below is a non-exhaustive list of things which my brain will tend to do, if I don't put forth strategic effort to stop it:
I actually tend not to do these things. I do them fairly rarely, and ever more rarely as time goes on and I improve my cognitive software and add to my catalogue of mental checks and balances and discover more of my brain's loopholes and close them up one by one.
But it's work. It's hard work. It takes up a nontrivial portion of my available spoons every single day.
And more—it requires me to leave value on the table. To not-win fights that I could have won, had I been more willing to kick below the belt. There's a reason human brains slide toward those shortcuts, and it's because those shortcuts tend to work.
But the cost—
My brain does not understand the costs, most of which are distant and abstract. My brain was not evolved to understand, on an intuitive, reflexive level, things like:
All it sees is a chance to win.
My brain is a phoenix. It sees ways to win the immediate, local confrontation, and does not understand what it would be sacrificing to secure that victory.
I spend a lot of time around people who are not as smart as me.
(This is a rude statement, but it's one I'm willing to spend the points to make. It's right that we generally dock people points for rudeness; rudeness tracks a real and important set of things and our heuristics for dealing with it are actually pretty decent. I hereby acknowledge and accept the regrettable cost of my action.)
I spend a lot of time around people who are not as smart as me, and I also spend a lot of time around people who are as smart as me (or smarter), but who are not as conscientious, and I also spend a lot of time around people who are as smart or smarter and as conscientious or conscientiouser, but who do not have my particular pseudo-autistic special interest and have therefore not spent the better part of the past two decades enthusiastically gathering observations and spinning up models of what happens when you collide a bunch of monkey brains under various conditions.
(Repetition is a hell of a drug.)
All of which is to say that I spend a decent chunk of the time being the guy in the room who is most aware of the fuckery swirling around me, and therefore the guy who is most bothered by it. It's like being a native French speaker and dropping in on a high school French class in a South Carolina public school, or like being someone who just learned how to tell good kerning from bad keming. I spend a lot of time wincing, and I spend a lot of time not being able to fix The Thing That's Happening because the inferential gaps are so large that I'd have to lay down an hour's worth of context just to give the other people the capacity to notice that something is going sideways.
(Note: often, what it feels like from the inside when you are incapable of parsing some particular distinction is that the other person has a baffling and nonsensical preference between two things that are essentially indistinguishable. To someone with colorblindness, there's just no difference between those two shades. Sometimes, when you think someone is making a mountain out of a molehill, they are in fact making a mountain out of a molehill. But sometimes there's a mountain there, and it's kind of wild that you can't see it. It's wise to keep this possibility in mind.)
I don't like the fact that my brain undermines my ability to see and think clearly, if I lose focus for a minute.
I don't like the fact that my brain undermines other people's ability to see and think clearly, if I lose focus for a minute.
I don't like the fact that, much of the time, I'm all on my own to maintain focus, and keep my eye on these problems, and notice them and nip them in the bud.
I'd really like it if I were embedded in a supportive ecosystem. If there were clear, immediate, and reliable incentives for doing it right, and clear, immediate, and reliable disincentives for doing it wrong. If there were actual norms (as opposed to nominal ones, norms-in-name-only) that gave me hints and guidance and encouragement. If there were dozens or even hundreds of people around, such that I could be confident that, when I lose focus for a minute, someone else will catch me.
Catch me, and set me straight.
Because I want to be set straight.
Because I actually care about what's real, and what's true, and what's justified, and what's rational, even though my brain is only kinda-sorta halfway on board, and keeps thinking that the right thing to do is Win.
Sometimes, when people catch me, I wince, and sometimes, I get grumpy, because I'm working with a pretty crappy OS, here. But I try to get past the wince as quickly as possible, and I try to say "thank you," and I try to make it clear that I mean it, because honestly, the people that catch me are on my side. They are helping me live up to a value that I hold in my own heart, even though I don't always succeed in embodying it.
I like it when people save me from the mistakes I listed above. I genuinely like it, even if sometimes it takes my brain a moment to catch up.
I've got a handful of metaphors that are trying to triangulate something important.
One of them is "herd immunity." In particular, those nifty side-by-side time lapses that show the progression of virulent illness in populations with different rates of vaccination or immunity. The way that the badness will spread and spread and spread when only half the population is inoculated, but fizzle almost instantly when 90+% is.
If it's safe to assume that most people's brains are throwing up the bad stuff at least as often as mine does, then it seems to matter a lot how infect-able the people around you are. How quickly their immune systems kick in, before the falsehoods take root and replicate and spread.
And speaking of immune systems, another metaphor is "epistemic hygiene." There's a reason that phrase exists. It exists because washing your hands and wearing a mask and using disinfectant and coughing into your elbow makes a difference. Cleaner people get sick less, and propagate sickness less, and cleanliness is made up of a bunch of tiny, pre-emptive actions.
(There was a decent chance that there was going to be someone in the comments using the fact that this essay contains a Rick & Morty quote to delegitimize me and the point that I'm making, but then I wrote this sentence and that became a harder trick to pull off. Not impossible, though.)
Another metaphor is that of a garden.
You know what makes a garden?
Weeding.
Gardens aren't just about the thriving of the desired plants. They're also about the non-thriving of the non-desired plants.
And weeding is hard work, and it's boring, and it's tedious, and it's unsexy.
What I'm getting out of LessWrong these days is readership. It's a great place to come and share my thoughts, and have them be seen by people—smart and perceptive people, for the most part, who will take those thoughts seriously, and supply me with new thoughts in return, many of which I honestly wouldn't have ever come to on my own.
That's valuable.
But it's not what I really want from LessWrong.
What I really want from LessWrong is to make my own thinking better, moment to moment. To be embedded in a context that evokes clearer thinking, the way being in a library evokes whispers. To be embedded in a context that anti-evokes all those things my brain keeps trying to do, the way being in a church anti-evokes coarse language.
I'd like an environment that takes seriously the fact that the little things matter, and that understands that standards and principles that are only enforced 90% of the time aren't actually enforced.
I think LessWrong actually does a pretty good job of toeing the rationality line, and following its own advice, if you take the sum total of all of its conversations.
But if you look at the conversations that matter—the times when a dose of discipline is most sorely needed, and when its absence will do the most damage—
In the big, important conversations, the ones with big stakes, the ones where emotions run high—
I don't think LessWrong, as a community, does very well in those conversations at all. When the going gets tough, the number of people who are steadfastly unwilling to let their brains do the things, and steadfastly insistent that others not get away with it either feels like it dwindles to almost nothing, and as a result, the entirely predictable thing happens: people start using symmetric weapons, and they work.
(I set aside a few minutes to go grab some examples—not an exhaustive search, just a quick skim. There's the total vote count on this comment compared to these two, and the fact that it took nearly three weeks for a comment like this one to appear, and the fact that this is in negative territory, and this comment chain which I discussed in detail in another recent post, and this and its child being positive while this and this hover around zero, and this still not having incorporated the extremely relevant context provided in this, and therefore still being misleading to anyone who doesn't get around to the comments, and the lack of concrete substantiation of the most radioactive parts of this, and so on and so forth.)
To be clear: there are also many examples of the thing going well. If you count up from nothing, and just note all the places where LessWrong handled these conversations better than genpop, there are many! More, even, than what I'm highlighting as the bad stuff.
But gardens aren't just about the thriving of the desired plants. They're also about the non-thriving of the non-desired plants.
There's a difference between "there are many black ravens" and "we've successfully built an environment with no white ravens." There's a difference between "this place substantially rewards black ravens" and "this place does not reward white ravens; it imposes costs upon them." It should be possible—no, it should be easy to have a conversation about whether the incidence of white ravens has been sufficiently reduced, separate from the question of the total incidence of black ravens, and to debate what the ratio of white ravens to black ravens needs to be, and how long a white raven should hang out before being chased away, and what it would cost to do things differently, and whether that's worth it, and I notice that this very sentence is becoming pretty defensive, and is emerging in response to past experiences, and a strong expectation that my attempt at nuance and specificity is likely to fail, because the culture does not sufficiently disincentivize projection and strawmanning and misrepresentation, and so attempts-to-be-clear cannot simply be offhand but must be preemptively fortified and made proof against adversarial interpretation and geez, this kind of sucks, no?
In Concentration of Force, which was originally part one of this essay, I mention the process of evaporative cooling, and I want to ask: who is being evaporatively cooled out of LessWrong these days, and is that the feedback loop we want to set up?
I think it isn't. I think that a certain kind of person—
(one who buys that it's important to stick to the rationality 101 basics even when it's inconvenient, and that even a small percentage of slips along this axis is a pretty big deal)
—is becoming less prevalent on LessWrong, and a certain other kind of person—
(one who doesn't buy the claim that consistency-on-the-small-stuff matters a lot, and/or thinks that there are other higher goals that supersede approximately-never-letting-the-standards-slip)
—is becoming more prevalent, and while I have nothing against the latter in general, I really thought LessWrong was for the former.
Here's my vision of LessWrong:
LessWrong should be a place where rationality has reliable concentration of force.
Where rhetorical trickery does not work. Where supposition does not get mistaken for fact. Where people's words are treated as if they mean what they say, and if there seems to be another layer of implication or inference, that is immediately surfaced and made explicit so the hypothesis can be checked, rather than the assumption run with. Where we are both capable of distinguishing, and careful to distinguish, our interpretations from our observations, and our plausible hypotheses from our justified conclusions. Where we hold each other to that standard, and receive others holding us to that standard as prosocial and cooperative, because we want help holding the line. Where bad commentary is not highly upvoted just because our monkey brains are cheering, and good commentary is not downvoted or ignored just because our monkey brains boo or are bored.
Perhaps most importantly, where none of the above is left on the level of "c'mon, we all know." Where bad stuff doesn't go unmentioned because it's just assumed that everyone knows it's bad. That just results in newcomers not knowing the deal, and ultimately means the standards erode over time.
(A standard people are hesitant or embarrassed or tentative about supporting, or that isn't seen as cool or sophisticated to underline, is not one that endures for very long.)
I spend a decent chunk of my time doing stuff like upvoting comments that are mostly good, but noting in reply to them specific places in which I think they were bad or confused or norm-violating. I do this so that I don't accidentally create a social motte-and-bailey, and erode the median user's ability to tell good from bad.
This is effortful work. I wish more people pitched in, more of the time, the way this user did here and here and here and here.
In my opinion, the archetype of the Most Dangerous Comment is something like this one:
This is a bad comment (in context, given what it's replying to). It's the kind of thing my brain produces, when I lose focus for a minute.
But it sounds good. It makes you Feel Like You're On The Right Team as you read it, so long as you're willing to overlook the textbook strawmanning it does, of the comment it's replying to.
It's a Trojan horse. It's just such good-thoughts-wrapped-in-bad-forms that people give a pass to, which has the net effect of normalizing bad forms.
It's when the people we agree with are doing it wrong that we are most in need of standards, firmly held.
(I have a few theories about why people are abandoning or dismissing or undermining the standards, in each of a few categories. Some people, I think, believe that it's okay to take up banned weapons as long as the person you're striking at is in the outgroup. Some people seem to think that suffering provides a justification for otherwise unacceptable behavior. Some people seem to think that you can skip steps as long as you're obviously a good guy, and others seem to think that nuance and detail are themselves signs of some kind of anti-epistemic persuadery. These hypotheses do not exhaust the space of possibility.)
It is an almost trivial claim that there are not enough reasonable people in the world. There literally never will be, from the position of a group that's pushing for sanity—if the quality of thought and discourse in the general population suddenly rose to match the best of LessWrong, the best of the LessWrongers would immediately set their sights on the next high-water mark, because this sure ain't enough.
What that means is that, out there in the broader society, rationality will approximately always lose the local confrontations. Battles must be chosen with great care, and the forces of reason meticulously prepared—there will be occasional moments of serendipity when things go well, and the rare hero that successfully speaks a word of sanity and escapes unscathed, but for the most part those victories won't come by accident.
Here, though—here, within the walls of the garden—
A part of me wants to ask "what's the garden for, if not that? What precisely are the walls trying to keep out?"
In my post on moderating LessWrong, I set forth the following principle:
I no longer think that's sufficient. There aren't enough moderators for reliable concentration of force. I think it's the case that LessWrongers trying to adhere to the site's principles are often alone—and furthermore, they have no real reason, given the current state of affairs, to expect not to be alone.
Sometimes, people show up. Often, if you look on a timescale of days or weeks. But not always. Not quickly. Not reliably.
(And damage done in the meantime is rarely fully repaired. If someone has broadcast falsehoods for a week and they've been strongly upvoted, it's not enough to just say "Oops, sorry, I was wrong." That comes nowhere close to fixing what they broke.)
Looking at the commentary in the threads of the last month—looking at the upvotes and the downvotes—looking at what was said, and by whom, and when—
It's not promising.
It's not promising in the sense that the people in the parking lot consider it their responsibility to stand in defense of the parent who left their kids in the car.
That they do so reliably, and enthusiastically. That they show up in force. That they show up in force because they expect to be backed up, the way that people in a city expect to be backed up if they push back against someone shouting racist slurs. That they consider themselves obligated to push back, rather than considering it not-their-problem.
It is a defining characteristic of stag hunts that when everybody actually buys in, the payoff is pretty huge.
It is also a defining characteristic of stag hunts that when critical mass fails to cohere, those who chose stag get burned, and feel cheated, and lose big.
This post is nowhere close to being a sufficient coordination mechanism to cohere a stag hunt. No one should change their behavior in response to this alone.
But it's a call for a stag hunt.
The elephant in the room, which deserves its own full section but I wasn't able to pull it together:
Standards are not really popular. Most people don't like them. Or rather, most people like them in the abstract, but chafe when they get in the way, and it's pretty rare for someone to not think that their personal exception to the standard is more justified than others' violations. Half the people here, I think, don't even see the problem that I'm trying to point at. Or they see it, but they don't see it as a problem.
I think a good chunk of LW's current membership would leave or go quiet if we actually succeeded at ratcheting the standards up.
I don't think that's a bad thing. I'd like to be surrounded by people who are actually trying. And if LW isn't going to be that place, and it knows that it isn't, I'd like to know that, so I can go off and found it (or just give up).
Terrible Ideas
... because I don't have better ones, yet.
The target is "rationality has reliable concentration of force."
The current assessment is "rationality does not have reliable concentration of force."
The vector, then, is things which either increase the number of people showing up in true rationalist style, relative to those who are not, or things which increase the power of people adhering to rationalist norms, relative to those who are not.
More of the good thing, and/or less of the bad thing.
Here are some terrible ideas for moving in that direction—for either increasing or empowering the people who are interested in the idea of a rationality subculture, and decreasing or depowering those who are just here to cargo cult a little.
These are all terrible ideas.
These are all
terrible
ideas.
I'm going to say it a third time, because LessWrong is not yet a place where I can rely on my reputation for saying what I actually mean and then expect to be treated as if I meant the thing that I actually said: I recognize that these are terrible ideas.
But you have to start somewhere, if you're going to get anywhere, and I would like LessWrong to get somewhere other than where it was over the past month. To be the sort of place where doing the depressingly usual human thing doesn't pay off. Where it's more costly to do it wrong than to do it right.
Clearly, it's not going to "just happen." Clearly, we need something to riff off of.
The guiding light in front of all of those terrible ideas—the thing that each of them is a clumsy and doomed attempt to reach for—is making the thing that makes LessWrong different be "LessWrong is a place where rationality has reliable concentration of force."
Where rationality is the-thing-that-has-local-superiority-in-most-conflicts. Where the people wielding good discourse norms and good reasoning norms always outnumber the people who aren't—or, if they can't outnumber them, we at least equip them well enough that they always outgun them.
Not some crazy high-tower thing. Just the basics, consistently done.
Until users doing the above (and similar) consistently win against users who aren't, LessWrong is going to miss out on a thing that clearly a lot of us kind of want, and kind of think might actually matter to some other pretty important goals.
Maybe that's fine. Maybe all we really need is the low-effort rough draft. Maybe the 80/20 is actually the right balance. In fact, we're honestly well past the 80/20—LessWrong is at least an 85/37 by this point.
But it's not actually doing the thing, and as far as I can tell it's not really trying to do the thing, either—not on the level of "approximately every individual feels called to put forth a little extra effort, and approximately every individual feels some personal stake when they see the standards being degraded."
Instead, as a collective, we've got one foot on the gas and the other on the brake, and that probably isn't the best strategy for any worthwhile goal. One way or another, I think we should actually make up our minds, here, and either go out and hunt stag, or split up and catch rabbits.
Author's note: this essay is not as good as I wished it would be. In particular, it's falling somewhat short of the very standard it's pulling for, in a way that I silver-line as "reaching downward across the inferential gap" but which is actually just the result of me not having the spoons to do this or this kind of analysis on each of a dozen different examples. Having spent the past six days improving it, "as good as I wish it would be" is starting to look like an asymptote, so I chose now over never.