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Do “adult developmental stages” theories have any pre-theoretic motivation?

by Said Achmiz
20th Jul 2025
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World Modeling
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Do “adult developmental stages” theories have any pre-theoretic motivation?
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[-]romeostevensit2mo142

You are ignoring Kegan's experimental setup which lead to the clustering in the first place. I recommend putting his books into an LLM and asking questions about how the model was generated.

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo40

Do you have a link to a good overview of Kegan’s experimental setup, or a recommendation for a reference? (I avoid the use of LLMs.)

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[-]romeostevensit2mo50

I'd guess first few chapters of The Evolving Self

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo20

Thanks! I’ll check it out.

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[-]gjm2mo110

A nitpick:

Some sort of developmental-stage theory could be true without there being anything that quite looks like a strong correlation with age.

(Detailed example follows; feel free to skip if this is obvious once pointed out.)

Suppose everyone has some determinable number associated with them at any given time; let's call it their "quality". Everyone starts at 1. No one ever goes above 6. For a given person, quality only ever increases. But, tragically, "the good die young", and if we classify people by the highest quality they ever reach it looks like this:

  • Group 1: Q1 from age 0 to age 60.
  • Group 2: Q1 from age 0 to age 40, Q2 from age 40 to age 50.
  • Group 3: Q1 from age 0 to age 20, Q2 from age 20 to age 30, Q3 from age 30 to age 40.
  • Group 4: Q1 from age 0 to age 3, Q2 from age 3 to age 10, Q3 from age 10 to age 20, Q4 from age 20 to age 30.
  • Group 5: Q1 from age 0 to age 2, Q2 from age 2 to age 4, Q3 from age 4 to age 6, Q4 from age 6 to age 10, Q5 from from age 10 to age 20.
  • Group 6: Q1 from age 0 to age 1, Q2 from age 1 to age 2, Q3 from age 2 to age 3, Q4 from age 3 to age 4, Q5 from age 4 to age 5, Q6 from age 5 to age 10.

Although the good die young, the gods smile on virtue so they are more numerous: the number of people in each group is inversely proportional to the age they will attain.

So we might suppose a population with

  • 6000 group-1 people, 100 each at ages 0.5 .. 59.5, all at quality 1
  • 7200 group-2 people, 144 each at ages 0.5 .. 49.5, transitioning from quality 1 to quality 2 at age 40.
  • 9000 group-3 people, 225 each at ages 0.5 .. 39.5, transitioning at ages 20 and 30.
  • 12000 group-4 people, 400 each at ages 0.5 .. 29.5, transitioning at ages 3, 10, 20.
  • 18000 group-5 people, 900 each at ages 0.5 .. 19.5, transitioning at ages 2, 4, 6, 10.
  • 36000 group-6 people, 3600 each at ages 0.5 .. 9.5, transitioning at ages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

And this turns out to give a negative correlation between age and quality.

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think it's terribly likely, conditional on some Kegan-like thing being true, that the distributions would look anything like this. Most likely, if something Kegan-like is true, age will correlate with stage. But it's not guaranteed.

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo20

Yes, that math checks out (on a skim). Of course it’s not actually possible for this to occur in anything remotely resembling a Western society (which is, I expect, mostly where the data for such theories is sampled); we don’t have many more people dying at age 10 than at age 60. (And several other assumptions of the model are quite unlikely, yes.)

It’s an interesting technical point nonetheless, and a good reminder to be aware of the possibility of non-obvious or unintuitive population-statistics effects.

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[-]gjm2mo102

It wasn't meant to be a realistic example! But, yes, we are in violent agreement that it isn't very likely that anything Keganesque would be true without the sort of age correlation you describe. It just seemed worth pointing out that it isn't a requirement.

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[-]Kaj_Sotala2mo40

A more realistic example might be if the lower stages tended to be almost universally achieved when young, with the higher stages being rare at any age. E.g. I think that of Kegan stages, stage 3 tended to be almost always achieved by early adulthood, while only a very small fraction (1%?) would ever achieve stage 5, with a nontrivial fraction failing to ever achieve stage 4.

In that case there would still be a correlation with age, but it would be pretty weak - if you're the type that reaches stage 3 at age 18 and then stay there for your whole life, you'll drag the correlation down, and AFAIK this was claimed to be reasonably common. (This article claims that 65% of the population get stuck at stage 3, though it seems to base its claim on a breakdown that says 65% of the adult population is at stage 3 or lower at any given time, which is not the same thing.)

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo*20

In order to even describe anything like this as “stages”, you have to motivate it by observing the pre-theoretic facts which I described. @gjm’s comment does that, for his scenario; yours does not. Let’s try to rewrite your scenario without the theory-based assumptions, taking gjm’s comment as a guide:

Suppose everyone has some determinable number associated with them at any given time; let’s call it their “quality”.

(Note that using a number for this implies an interval or ratio scale, but this is not necessary; an ordinal scale suffices, as I say.)

Everyone starts at 1. No one ever goes above 6 5. For a given person, quality only ever increases.

Then from there we stipulate that most people increase to 3 by early childhood; many people at some point increase to 4 (when?); and very few increase to 5 (when?).

Well… I think that calling this scenario “developmental stages” is, actually, kind of nonsensical.

I mean, we named the dimension of variation “quality”, but what if it’s actually… rock climbing skill? Let’s run through our checklist:

  • Everyone has a certain level of rock climbing skill.
  • There is a certain maximum level of rock climbing skill that any human has ever achieved.
  • For a given person, rock climbing skill only ever increases[1].
  • Everyone starts at the minimal amount of rock climbing skill.
  • Most people naturally develop a baseline level of coordination and physical ability that lets them climb rocks at a very basic level (at least enough to, say, climb onto a large boulder the size of a small boulder), although a small minority of people can’t even do that.
  • Some people take rock climbing classes, or generally develop athletic ability, that lets them climb rocks noticeably better than that baseline.
  • A very few people, at some point in their lives, get really into rock climbing, and become able to climb rocks really, really well.

Do we need a “theory of adult development” to explain the landscape of variation in rock climbing ability…?


  1. Setting aside injury or disease; but then, injury or disease can affect mental characteristics too, so that’s not a flaw of the example. ↩︎

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[-]gjm2mo76

I don't know whether we need one, but it's not clear that one would be wrong.

In any case, it feels like there's some misunderstanding between Kaj and Said here. I take Kaj's comment two steps upthread from here not to be making any particular claim about the correctness or coherence or importance of Kegan's theory, but only to be saying: if Kegan's account of things were correct, then we would not necessarily see strong correlations with age. (Implicitly: Hence, it would be a mistake to demand such correlations in order to think such a theory worth investigating.)

So ... would the correlation with age be weak, if things were as Kaj describes? I think not very weak. We'd have

  • everyone starting at 1 ...
  • ... and moving to 2 at age, I dunno, somewhere between say 0 and 4 ...
  • ... and almost everyone then moving to 3 somewhere between say 12 and 25 ...
  • ... and then a substantial fraction of the population moving to 4 between say 20 and 40 ...
  • ... and then a small fraction moving to 5 at some point.

That looks to me like it would give a really strong correlation with age. Kaj, do you think I'm missing something here, and if so what?

(For what it's worth, I also don't see anything in this scenario that makes it unrealistic to describe it as "developmental stages". Whether that description is reasonable or not depends on details that, for the moment, we've abstracted away -- how discretely people move from one "stage" to the next, how consistently the various features of each stage go together with one another, etc. And, in view of Said's final comment, perhaps also how much of the alleged progression is something that any reasonable person would guess on their own after a few minutes' thought. Rock climbing doesn't do very well by those criteria, but that doesn't tell us much about whether Kegan's theory does.)

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[-]Kaj_Sotala2mo62

I take Kaj's comment two steps upthread from here not to be making any particular claim about the correctness or coherence or importance of Kegan's theory, but only to be saying: if Kegan's account of things were correct, then we would not necessarily see strong correlations with age.

I endorse this interpretation.

That looks to me like it would give a really strong correlation with age. Kaj, do you think I'm missing something here, and if so what?

No, you're right. My intuitive sense of how the distribution would line up was off, I get correlation coefficients around 0.5 on few synthetic datasets that I had Claude generate now (eyeballing the scatterplot, I think the code generating the datasets has some bugs, but I think fixing those is more likely to increase the correlation than to decrease it).

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo10

I take Kaj’s comment two steps upthread from here not to be making any particular claim about the correctness or coherence or importance of Kegan’s theory, but only to be saying: if Kegan’s account of things were correct, then we would not necessarily see strong correlations with age.

But “Kegan’s account of things”, as I’ve seen it described (and as Kaj describes it), is an account of “things” in terms of his theory (with the “stages” and so on). What is the formulation of “Kegan’s account of things” prior to having any concept of “stages” of “adult development”, before we have any reason to think that there’s any such thing as “development” that takes place in “stages”?

So the antecedent—“if Kegan’s account of things were correct”—is something that can’t even be formulated, in the pre-theoretic setting. (At least, as I have seen the account given. This comment claims that there was motivating experimental data to begin with, but no reference or elaboration has yet been given, so I can’t comment on that.)


(Your comment re: strength of the correlation seems correct.)


(For what it’s worth, I also don’t see anything in this scenario that makes it unrealistic to describe it as “developmental stages”. Whether that description is reasonable or not depends on details that, for the moment, we’ve abstracted away—how discretely people move from one “stage” to the next, how consistently the various features of each stage go together with one another, etc. And, in view of Said’s final comment, perhaps also how much of the alleged progression is something that any reasonable person would guess on their own after a few minutes’ thought. Rock climbing doesn’t do very well by those criteria, but that doesn’t tell us much about whether Kegan’s theory does.)

Well, yes, it does depend on the details, but what I’m saying is that describing things that fit such a pattern as “stages of adult development”, or any such thing, isn’t the default. Rock climbing is one example, but of course there are many others—many kinds of skill, to name the obvious category; many kinds of understanding or knowledge (e.g. “how well does this person understand basic mechanics” or “how much does this person know about lizards”). If the way people move between clusters is by deciding to learn or practice something, or by reading something, etc., then talking about “stages of development” (which we need some theory to account for) is obviously farcical.

(Anyhow, I think we mostly don’t disagree here.)

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[-]gjm2mo20

(I agree that we mostly don't disagree here.)

Once again I think your objection is to something other than what I take Kaj to have been saying. That is: you're saying that Kegan's theory specifically isn't sufficiently clearly defined to make it meaningful to talk about what "stages" it might or might not involve, etc. That might be true. But Kaj isn't (here, in this thread) arguing about that. He's saying (I paraphrase): "I think that if all the rest of it turns out to make sense, the relationship between age and stage according to Kegan's theory has such-and-such a shape, in which case the correlation wouldn't be very strong; therefore it would be a mistake to insist on strong age/stage correlations before taking such a theory seriously". And so far as I can see, this is a reasonable kind of argument to make, even if it might turn out that actually "Kegan's theory" fails to be clearly definable, or something of the sort. (In that case, making the argument would turn out to have been wasted effort, but that's OK.)

(As I said above, I think that in fact Kegan-as-described-by-Kaj does predict a strong correlation between age and stage. But that's an entirely separate matter.)

I agree that describing things that fit such a pattern as "stages of development" isn't and shouldn't be the default. I don't know what evidence (anecdotal or scientific) Kegan and others have, or think they have, to support using such a term for the psychological changes Kegan professes to have observed. But (for what it's worth) my impression is that they aren't just saying that anything that changes over time should be called "stages of development". I think they think (rightly or wrongly) that the "stages" are fairly well demarcated, that it's not common for someone to be "in stage 3 as regards X and Y but in stage 4 as regards P and Q", that it's usual to spend much more time unambiguously in a particular stage than in any sort of transitional state, etc. Whether any of that's true, I don't know. Whether in fact Kegan "stages" can be defined clearly enough for the question to have a definite answer, I don't know. But (so far as I can make out) the Keganites are purporting to describe something different from rock-climbing in such a way that (if they're right) talking about "stages of development" and seeing them as needing some kind of explanatory theory makes more sense for what they're talking about than it would for rock-climbing.

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo30

Well, regardless of what the “Keganites” are saying, I want to see the pre-theoretic facts before I’m going to be particularly interested in their model of “stages” etc.

Now, one way to read objections like Kaj’s is that my account of precisely which pre-theoretic facts would motivate an “adult developmental stages” theory is flawed. That’s a reasonable sort of objection. (I haven’t seen any evidence yet that any such objection is right, but there is no a priori reason why none can be.)

In such a case, if the objector wishes to substitute some different set of pre-theoretic facts, make the case that those facts constitute a state of affairs that can meaningfully be described as “there sure seem to be stages of adult development”, and then make the conditionally reasonable claim that a theory thereof is thus motivated—by all means, I would be interested to see such a thing.

But that argument isn’t going to involve any mention of any element of any existing theory at all. If it does, then the point has been thoroughly missed.

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[-]gjm2mo20

My interpretation of what Kaj wrote was indeed that he disagrees about exactly what pre-theoretic facts would suggest looking for an "adult developmental stages" theory, on the grounds that he thinks there could be such a theory (and indeed a basically-Kegan-shaped one) in which the strong age/stage correlation isn't present.

The fact that the particular pattern of stage-transitions Kaj describes is basically-Kegan-shaped isn't relevant to the validity of the objection, except in so far as it indicates that the pattern in question isn't somehow the wrong sort of pattern to be part of an "adult developmental stages" theory.

For what it's worth, my notion of what the pre-theoretic facts ought to look like isn't exactly the same as yours. I'd want to see something like: 1. a specific set of psychological characteristics that 2. each exhibit a consistent pattern of progression through an individual's life, 3. in such a way that we can put matching labels on all the progressions and see that people generally have most or all in consistently-labelled states, 4. (slightly optionally; if this fails then "developmental" is a misleading term) such that later-reached bundles of states are generally better in some sense than earlier-reached ones, and 5. (slightly optionally; if this fails then "stages" is a misleading term) a smallish discrete set of labels sufficing in the sense that most people most of the time have most of those characteristics in states corresponding to a single one of those labels. In particular, I don't think I care whether the characteristics in question all pertain to a single "domain" in any sense, and I don't think anything's gained by introducing the possibility of correlations with other characteristics besides age, when later in your list you're specifically going to demand correlation with age. And what I want to see is progression within each individual's life, not a population-level correlation with age.

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo20

And what I want to see is progression within each individual’s life, not a population-level correlation with age.

I think I agree that this is a better criterion, yeah. I’m not prepared to be sure about this without thinking about it some more, but I definitely lean toward being convinced.

I don’t think I care whether the characteristics in question all pertain to a single “domain” in any sense

I don’t necessarily care about that either, but clustering and progression that is parallel across multiple domains is an additional fact, which is not necessary to motivate a theory of the relevant sort. And treating domains separately is useful because we may well have, for example, a case where the data that indicates clustering/progression in one domain is weaker than the data which indicates it in another domain; we want to retain the ability to say “well, I’m not sure about the claim that people exhibit this pattern with respect to rock climbing skill and knitting skill and desire for broccoli, but at least the first one is clearly true, and so we’d like a theory that explains that even if it doesn’t also explain the other stuff”.

In general, there’s not really a good reason not to keep domains conceptually separate here; we can always decide later that a pattern that holds across domains requires a unified theory (or we can notice that a theory that explains the pattern in one domain also explains it in other domains). In the meantime, keeping our claims narrowly scoped seems prudent.

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[-]johnswentworth2mo7-2

I don't have much object-level substance to add, but... I've spent a whole lot of effort over the past few years understanding how empirical verification of ontological choices works, and on my current understanding, this post is asking exactly the right questions. Outstanding job.

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo20

Thank you!

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[-]Said Achmiz2mo40

Related reading: Sarah Constantin’s post “Are Adult Developmental Stages Real?”.

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(This is a comment that has been turned into a post.)

I have seen much talk on Less Wrong of “development stages” and “Kegan” and so forth. Naturally I am skeptical; so I do endorse any attempt to figure out if any of this stuff is worth anything. To aid in our efforts, I’d like to say a bit about what might convince me be a little less skeptical.

A theory should explain facts; and so the very first thing we’d have to do, as investigators, is figure out if there’s anything to explain. Specifically: we would have to look at the world, observe people, examine their behavior, their patterns of thinking and interacting with other people, their professed beliefs and principles, etc., etc., and see if these fall into any sorts of patterns or clusters, such that they may be categorized according to some scheme, where some people act like this [and here we might give some broad description], while other people act like that.

(Clearly, the answer to this question would be: yes, people’s behavior obviously falls into predictable, clustered patterns. But what sort, exactly? Some work would need to be done, at least, to enumerate and describe them.)

Second, we would have to see whether these patterns that we observe may be separated, or factored, by “domain”, whereby there is one sort of pattern of clusters in how people think and act and speak, which pertains to matters of religion; and another pattern, which pertains to relationship to family; and another pattern, which pertains to preferences of consumption; etc. We would be looking for such “domains” which may be conceptually separated—regardless of whether there were any correlation between clustering patterns in one domain or another.

(Here again, the answer seems clearly to be that yes, such domains may be defined without too much difficulty. However, the intuition is weaker than for the previous question; and we are less sure that we know what it is we’re talking about; and it becomes even more important to be specific and explicit.)

Now we would ask two further questions (which might be asked in parallel). Third: does categorization of an individual into one cluster or another, in any of these domains, correlate with that individual’s category membership in categories pertaining to any observable aspect of human variation? (Such observable aspects might be: cultural groupings; gender; weight; height; age; ethnicity; socioeconomic status; hair color; various matters of physical health; or any of a variety of other ways in which people demonstrably differ.) And fourth: may the clusters in any of these domains sensibly be given a total ordering (and the domain thereby be mapped onto a linear axis of variation)?

Note the special import of this latter question. Prior to answering it, we are dealing exclusively with nominal data values. We now ask whether any of the data we have might actually be ordinal data. The answer might be “no” (for instance, you prefer apples, and I prefer oranges; this puts us in different clusters within the “fruit preferences” domain of human psychology, but in no sense may these clusters be arranged linearly).

Our fifth question (conditional on answering yes to all four of the previous question) is this: among our observed domains of clustering, and looking in particular at those for which the data is of an ordinal nature, are there any such that the dimension of variation has any normative aspect? That is: is there a domain such that we might sensibly say that it is better to belong to clusters closer to one end of its spectrum of variation, than to belong to clusters closer to the other end? (Once more note that the answer might be “no”: for example, suppose that some people fidget a lot, while others do not fidget very much. Is it better to be a much-fidgeter than a not-much-fidgeter? Well… not really; nor the reverse; at least, not in any general way. Maybe fidgeting has some advantages, and not fidgeting has others, etc.; who knows? But overall the answer is “no, neither of these is clearly superior to the other; they’re just one of those ways in which people differ, in a normatively neutral way”.)

Finally, our sixth question is: does there exist any domain of clustering in human behavioral/psychological variation for which all of these are true:

  • That its clusters may naturally be given a total order (i.e., arranged linearly);
  • That this linear dimension has normative significance;
  • That membership in its categories is correlated primarily with category membership pertaining to one aspect of human variation (rather than being correlated comparably with multiple such aspects);
  • That in particular, membership in this domain’s clusters is correlated primarily with age.

Note that we have asked six (mostly[1]) empirical questions about humanity. And we have had six chances to answer in the negative.

And note also that if we answer any of these questions in the negative, then any and all theories of “moral development” (or any similar notion) are necessarily nonsense—because they purport to explain facts which (in this hypothetical scenario) we simply do not observe. Without any further investigation, we can dispose of the lot of them with extreme prejudice, because they are entirely unmotivated by the pre-theoretic facts.

So, this is what I would like to see from any proponents of Kegan’s theory, or any similar ones: a detailed, thorough, and specific examination (with plenty of examples!) of the questions I give in this comment—discussed with utter agnosticism about even the concept of “moral development”, “adult development” or any similar thing. In short: before I consider any defense of any theory of “adult development”, I should like to be convinced of such a theory’s motivation.


  1. The question of normative import is not quite empirical, but it may be operationalized by considering intersubjective judgments of normative import; that is, in any case, more or less what we are talking about in the first place. ↩︎