I noticed this years ago when the variations of the show Big Brother were on TV in various countries. The show consists of compilations of real people spontaneously talking to each other throughout the day. The difference between this and the scripted conversations we saw on TV before Big Brother is huge. Real people apparently hardly talk in complete sentences, which is why scripted conversations are immediately recognizable as being fake. It's also strange that this is hardly noticeable in real life when you are actually having conversations.
Scott is often considered a digressive or even “astoundingly verbose” writer.
This made me realise that as a reader I care about, not so much "information & ideas per word" (roughly speaking), but "per unit of effort reading". I'm reminded of Jason Crawford on why he finds Scott's writing good:
Most writing on topics as abstract and technical as his struggles just not to be dry; it takes effort to focus, and I need energy to read them. Scott’s writing flows so well that it somehow generates its own energy, like some sort of perpetual motion machine.
My favorite Scott essays take no effort to read due to that perpetual motion effect, so the denominator vanishes and the ratio skyrockets; the word count becomes unnoticeable. I'd guess that Scott's avid readers would mostly say the same.
I've been working with a professional editor on a report and it's amazing how much clearer and punchier the writing is after they've done a pass on my rough drafts. But the perpetual motion effect of Scott's writing is on another level: there's almost a motive force to it.
Here's an old comment he wrote in response to Luke's "What are your favorite pieces of writing advice?" where he explains how he writes; the whole thing is worth reading, I'll only quote part of it:
There's that quote about how "the most important thing is sincerity, and if you can fake that, you've got it made." So there are two equal and opposite commandments for popular writing. First, you've got to sound like you're chatting with your reader, like you're giving them an unfiltered stream-of-consciousness access to your ideas as you think them. Second, on no account should you actually do that.
Eliezer is one of the masters at this; his essays are littered with phrases like "y'know" and "pretty much", but they're way too tight to be hastily published first drafts (or maybe I'm wrong and Eliezer is one of the few people in the world who can do this; chances are you're not). You've got to put a lot of work into making something look that spontaneous. I'm a fan of words like "sorta" and "kinda" myself, but I have literally gone through paragraphs and replaced all of the "to some degrees" with "sortas" to get the tone how I wanted it. ...
The real meat of writing comes from an intuitive flow of words and ideas that surprises even yourself. Editing can only enhance and purify writing so far; it needs to have some natural potential to begin with. My own process here is to mentally rehearse an idea very many times without even thinking about writing. Once I'm an expert at explaining it to myself or an imaginary partner, then I transcribe the explanation I settle upon (some people say they don't think in words; I predict writing will not come naturally to these people). Then I edit the heck out of it. ...
Some people say to write down everything and only edit later. I take the opposite tack. I used to believe that I rarely edited at all because I usually publish something as soon as it's done. Then a friend watching me write said that she was getting seasick from my tendency to go back and forth deleting and rewriting the same sentence fragment or paragraph before moving on. Most likely the best writers combine both editing methods.
To me, "writing how you talk" also stands in for, like, writing with good auditory flow. I often consider how many syllables a sentence has, and how they roll off the tongue. In some sense this matters less when people are reading silently, but since (most?) readers use their inner voice, lyrical language can still be valuable. This is another pretty strong injunction against long sentences; it's hard to imagine them being spoken, and so it's hard for them to be beautiful/aesthetic. It's also an argument for using lots of commas, to help show the reader when their inner orator should breathe.
Not sure if this is relevant, but when I make subtitles for videos, I try to remove some unnecessary words. For example, if someone says "two plus two is... uhm, equals... uhm, four", I write "two plus two equals four". This is better in two ways: first, no one really cares about the "uhm"; second, shorter subtitles are easier to read.
"Write like you talk" depends on which language you are talking about.
Take Arabic. Written Arabic and spoken Arabic has diverged enormously compared to written English and spoken English. Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) is the formal written language for books, newspapers, speeches etc. But no sane person speaks it. There are a lot of spoken dialects (like Egyptian, Levantine, Gulf Arabic, etc.). A speaker of different dialects may not understand other dialects or MSA, because all the vocabulary and grammar is different, which isn't usually the case in English.
Written and spoken English are similar to each other compared to most other languages.
My writing is often hard to follow. I think this is partly because I tend to write like I talk, but I can't use my non-verbals to help me out, and I don't get live feedback from the listener.
Assuming that our writing differs from our talking in counterproductive ways, what do you think is the "cause" of these counterproductive differences? Is it just tradition following?
Audio narration available on the Substack version of this post.
People often say to “write like you talk.” Paul Graham has a post titled “Write Like You Talk” where he says explicitly that written language is worse than spoken language because
He gives concrete advice: “Before I publish a new essay, I read it out loud and fix everything that doesn't sound like conversation. … [If you have] writing so far removed from spoken language that it couldn't be fixed sentence by sentence … try explaining to a friend what you just wrote. Then replace the draft with what you said to your friend.”
In “Politics and the English Language,” Orwell also identifies complex and formal diction as a way to mask emptiness, “to dress up simple statements and give an air of scientific impartiality to biased judgements. … A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outlines and covering up all the details. … If thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”
But Orwell doesn’t make the same distinction between spoken and written language; in fact he says that “When you are composing in a hurry—when you are dictating to a stenographer, for instance, or making a public speech—it is natural to fall into a pretentious, latinized style.” And Graham himself elsewhere says that “I'll often spend 2 weeks on an essay and reread drafts 50 times” and “I'm sure there are sentences I've read 100 times before publishing them” which is the opposite of how conversations work.
In contrast, Scott Alexander claims that it only takes him “a couple of hours” to write a post and that “I don’t really understand why it takes so many people so long to write. They seem to be able to talk instantaneously, and writing isn’t that different from speech.” But then Scott is often considered a digressive or even “astoundingly verbose” writer.
There’s debate over whether speech or writing is more “complex” at all, with scholars taking sides based on the metrics they use for complexity and the datasets they analyze. In particular, there’s debate over whether speech or writing uses more subordinate clauses. Subordinate clauses are so called because they can’t stand as independent sentences. They have a few common types:
The most intuitive comparison of spoken and written English is between matched narratives; ask test subjects to describe the same scene with either an oral or written narrative. The two studies that use this method found more subordination in speech.
Other studies compared writing and conversation without any matched pairs:
But subordination isn’t the only measure of complexity. Consider the following two sentences:
The first is a single clause with no subordination while the second contains two nominal clauses: “living in the Gulf” and “living with oil” function as the subject and object respectively. But a reader would say that the first is more complex because it’s a longer sentence that uses longer words and abstract technical jargon. Studies consistently find that writing is more lexically dense, i.e. it has more words that convey content relative to grammatical or functional words.
For academic writing, the other major difference is that writing uses a compressed style that uses noun phrases rather than clauses to add information. These noun phrases often leave the underlying relationship implicit; even phrases like “heart disease” don’t reveal whether the meaning is “disease caused by the heart” or “disease located in the heart” or “disease affecting the heart” if readers don’t already know. Starting in the mid-20th century, multi-noun sequences like “air flow limitations” and “plasma concentration time curve” became more common in academic, newspaper, and medical prose. The relationships between these pre-modifying nouns is left implicit. The excerpt below is from the excellent Biber and Gray (2011).
The compressed style also often uses many layers of embedding in its noun phrases: consider “the effects [[of changes [in taxonomic resolution]][on analyses [of patterns [of multivariate variation [at different spatial scales]]]] [for the highly diverse fauna [inhabiting holdfasts [of the kelp Ecklonia radiata]]]].” So the main clause of a sentence can be very simple even when the phrasal modification is very complex: consider the sentence “This may indeed be part [of the reason [for the statistical link [between schizophrenia and membership [in the lower socioeconomic classes]]]].”
Lastly, a difference between speech and writing is that face-to-face conversation uses more “metadiscourse” to lighten the cognitive load for both the speaker and listener. The speaker moves from topic to topic on the fly based on what seems natural while using verbal signposts and scaffolding to mark digressions, signal a return to the main line of thought, and keep the overall structure in view. Because listeners can’t reread or rely on visual cues like headings and paragraph breaks, they depend on these markers—“to sum up,” “we’ll come back to that,” “by the way”—along with repetition and reformulation of key points to stay oriented and to know when to shift their attention back to the argument’s central thread.
So the common advice to "write like you talk" can be underspecified. It's good to avoid pretentious and formulaic cliches that mask the absence of precise thought, and separately to avoid dense and impenetrable jargon that's hard for non-experts to understand. But it's bad to write verbose and digressive meanderings without editing them. And because this style of prose is faster to write, it can occupy a large share of posts (and more so of words) in Internet forums and discourse.