If we come up with a language that can be used to describe what’s true - that’s just how languages work.
the so-called "surprising effectiveness" is not that formal languages can describe reality. as you point out, that's a property of any descriptive language. no, the surprise which must be explained is that many of our specific sentences in those languages later turned out to be physically relevant.
i don't necessarily agree with the surprising effectiveness crowd, but you misrepresent their point.
Can you come up with an example of a mathematical statement that describes reality while not being physically relevant?
sorry, i think we misunderstand each other.
i guess my comment was unclear. i'm just saying that "mathematics is a language, so of course it can be used to describe reality" is arguing against something the surprising-effectiveness crowd does not claim. they do not say "it is surprising that mathematical language can be used to describe reality", but rather that "it is surprising that specific mathematical objects of interest to mathematicians often end up useful in physics or other empirical sciences."[1]
i feel the original essay -- in this section -- elides the difference between "mathematical language" and "mathematical object", and thereby argues against a strawman.
note that i'm making a very narrow point, here. for example, i think the next section of the essay is strong: mathematics has catalogued a LOT of true statements, and it's not necessarily surprising that some of them can be used in models of reality.
to your direct question: no, of course not? any description of reality is physically relevant.
the distinction between mathematical language and object is fuzzy. mathematics is happy to treat languages themselves as objects of study. nonetheless, while we're speaking philosophically, i think we can allow it.
I doubt the point of posts like this. There are countless philosophy of mathematics papers out there which have discussed these topics at a much higher level of sophistication with many references to previous literature. Someone who is unfamiliar with this literature is unlikely to add any original ideas at this point.
Of course, people, one way or the other, are very unlikely to dig up and read this dry prior literature, because that takes a lot of work. (Even if LLMs can help with the digging-up part.) So we have either a) uninformed but fun controversial blog posts to read and discuss, or b) nothing. Which is the better option? I'm not sure.
"Math Is a Language, Not a Story" I would not necessarily disagree with this, but would want to point out that it could equally well be described as a set of many languages, or as the structure of logic. Algebra is certainly a family of languages. It is not clear that, for example, Pythagorean theorem is best conceived of as a statement in any single language, as it can be proven within different axiom systems.
"It’s generalized conditional knowledge, not fundamentally free from the uncertainty but merely outsourcing it to the moment of applicability. As a result math can’t actually prove anything about real world with perfect confidence." I know I already commented this on the post from which this statement is taken, but this implies that mathematics itself is not real, which has not been demonstrated at all. In addition, even though that mathematical theorems are true is conditional on the axioms with respect to which they are proven, it is unconditionally true that, for example, the inscribed angle theorem follows from the axioms of Euclidean geometry.
You say: " And I understand why it may feel magical. But this is a magic rooted in empiricism about our physical reality. Only empiricism can reduce the improbability of a particular part of reality fitting specific mathematical axioms. Moreover, our ability to reason about properties of the universe and generalize patterns is the result of evolving inside this universe that has such properties in the first place."
However, empiricism doesn't explain the relative simplicity of the mathematical axioms required to describe reality. If we live within mathematics, as in the 'mathematical universe hypothesis', then this may be explained by the inherent structure and combinatorial explosiveness of the number of theorems which are true within axiom systems relative to the information required to specify them, along with the anthropic principle which requires us to live within a region of the mathematical universe which can accommodate intelligent beings of around our level of complexity. Under this interpretation, empirical observation serves to locate us within the mathematical universe.
It's this simplicity which scientists find to be 'unreasonable' about the 'effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences' , or rather the immense ratio of the complexity explained by laws of physics formulated in mathematics derived from relatively simple axiom systems to the simplicity of those axioms. Although I don't necessarily know whether I'd want to describe it as unreasonable, I think it's fair to say it's certainly notable and indicative that we are in a 'mathematical universe'.
I disagree that this is the kind of simplicity meant when pointing out the unreasonable effectiveness of math. If it is then I believe this line of thought has a glaring hole. Simple systems do not imply simple dynamics in general. Emergence exists. An elementary cellular automata can generate fractals from 8 binary rules, and a simple set of axioms is not held back by this simplicity when it comes to what that those axioms generate.
So the simplicity of the reality describing math generating axioms is interesting, but not surprising.
But lets keep going, and look at the anthropic principle. Assume we're 18th century Deist gods who get to decide how to build a new universe and we do this by deciding a set of axioms and watching the universe unfold. We have two choices, a simple set of axioms or a complex set of axioms. Which is more likely to generate the human race?
I'd argue the simple set of axioms is more likely to generate intelligence. The more moving parts you have the more likely something is going to break. A pendulum is orderly, a double pendulum exhibits chaos, and the
But then again this is a bit circular isn't it? Using dynamical systems (math) to argue the dynamics of mathematical formalism and all.
"I disagree that this is the kind of simplicity meant when pointing out the unreasonable effectiveness of math. If it is then I believe this line of thought has a glaring hole. Simple systems do not imply simple dynamics in general. Emergence exists. An elementary cellular automata can generate fractals from 8 binary rules, and a simple set of axioms is not held back by this simplicity when it comes to what that those axioms generate.
So the simplicity of the reality describing math generating axioms is interesting, but not surprising."
That's why I softened my designation to notable; but I think it could be surprising to someone who took a completely empirical point of view and doubted that anything so complex could emerge from pure logic, or was living at a point in history before computers had existed for as long as they have now and made the power of emergence apparent.
"I'd argue the simple set of axioms is more likely to generate intelligence. The more moving parts you have the more likely something is going to break. ... the chaotic system in which there exists temporally stable basins of attraction." I agree because I think our empirical exploration of physics has demonstrated that we live in a relatively simple part of the platonic mathematical world.
"But then again this is a bit circular isn't it? Using dynamical systems (math) to argue the dynamics of mathematical formalism and all."
Perhaps, but I don't fully understand your interpretation of the argument, so I can't comment. I would point out that (almost) self referential arguments can be perfectly legitimate.
Sorry, I was making an argument from analogy for what I now realize was for no apparent reason. I saw you mention the anthropic principle and got overexcited.
I agree that before the development of cheap widespread compute such a conclusion on the likely simplicity of the generating rules of the universe would be in the reverse (again with the Deism).
Therefore, there is nothing weird about mathematical efficiency. Nor any incompatibility between math and empiricism or math and physicalism. We do not need the natural laws of the world to be “written in the language of mathematics”. It’s enough, that we can speak math ourselves.
Indeed. I think the reason people get caught on questions like "what is math?" (and "what is reality/morality/consciousness/etc.?") largely comes from what I might call "metaphysical confusion". It takes the form of feeling like there's some meta question to be answered because they struggle to keep the whole picture in their head as they reason, and so it seems like concepts must bottom out somewhere other than experience because when they look at experience they struggle to see how it's enough.
But experience is enough, and there's no reason to do metaphysics, in that if a question is a question of metaphysics, we can generally reason equally well with and without the metaphysical model, except insofar as a metaphysical theory might provide useful intuitions to power counterfactual thinking to extend non-metaphysical theory, or in that we need some implicit metaphysics to say anything at all.
In Does the Universe Speak a Language We Just Made Up? Lorenzo Elijah, PhD shares his fascination with math and echoes a common idea among philosophers that the “surprising efficiency of math” is a problem for empiricism and physicalism:
Personally, I’m a big fan of empirical observations and physicalism does appear to me as the most probable ontology. I’ve written several posts critiquing metaphysical reasoning for trying to guess nature of reality from the armchair. And yet, I don’t see anything weird in the fact that math is the “backbone all the hard sciences”.
This may have something to do with the conflict of interest. My university diploma claims that I’m a mathematician, after all. Alternatively, maybe I have a better model of math than Dr Elijah. Confusion is the property of the map. If reality seems weird to you, then it’s you who has a problem, not reality. I’ll let my readers to deside which one of these factors is more relevant here.
Reality and Fiction
In his post Dr Elijah argues against mathematical fictionalism. He describes it like this:
I would not call myself a fictionalist, however, I think the view described here is basically correct, capturing core truths about the nature of math. Indeed, mathematics is a very precise language that allows us to talk about specific things instead of something else by logically pinpointing them. And then we can preserve truth relations and reach conclusions that follow from the premises.
Yet, Lorenzo Elijah thinks this view is problematic as it denies that mathematical objects “really exist”.
Before we engage with his argument, I’d like to share one tip for disentangling standard philosophical confusions. A lot of philosophical categories are a grab-all-bags of multiple meanings linked together for semantic reasons. And “real” is one of them. So, whenever philosophers talk about realness of something - pay close attention to what exactly is meant.
To Lorenzo Elijah’s credit, he tries to preemptively address this by explicitly stating that we are not talking about “plus sign floating in space”. This is commendable, but not enough. We haven’t tabooed the word “real”, haven’t got to the substance of the meaning that is being explored here.
What does it mean that a referent for symbol “4” really exists? What even is this referent?
So, it seems that 3. is our crux of disagreement. Now let’s get to the argument that Lorenzo Elijah presents to resolve it.
The Argument
Here is Elijah’s argument against fictionalism:
I agree that if mathematicians indeed were inventing/discovering math from their armchairs without any contact with reality and then it just so happened to perfectly coincide with the way reality is, that would be extremely surprising. Which is a huge hint that it’s not what is actually happening.
Remember, your strength as a rationalist is being confused by fiction more than by reality. If something is extremely unlikely to happen, then most likely it didn’t, and something is wrong with the theory that it did. In our case, with the argument above. So, what’s wrong with this argument?
Several things.
Math Is a Language, Not a Story.
First of all, let’s notice the core problem with the Middle-Earth-planet analogy. Math is a language that can be used to describe reality. Not a story about reality. This difference is quite crucial.
If we come up with some story and it just so happens to be true, it’s an incredible coincidence. If we come up with a language that can be used to describe what’s true - that’s just how languages work. Wouldn’t be a huge surprise if objects on the other planet can be described via the language of Tolkien’s elves, would it? Even less so with math which is much more general by design.
We can still be somewhat surprised if the language has necessary words to describe certain parts of reality before they were encountered. But this is an improbability of a much smaller degree, reduced by the fact that creating new words in this language is an interesting and rewarded activity, which people tend to do for its own sake, as exactly is the case with mathematics.
Math Is Not a Single Thing
When people are baffled by how well math describes the fundamental nature of reality, they tend to forget that math is a compilation of many different axiomatic systems. That it consists of multitude of “crazy weird objects”. Another failure of the Middle-Earth-analogy is that Lord of the Rings is the work of Tolkien, while the structure of quantum mechanics is described by yet another mathematical object, no more special than any other.
Imagine if Tolkien wrote thousands upon thousands of books, essentially brute forcing through all possible coherent settings. And then some planet with life happened to resemble one of them. That would be much less of a coincidence, wouldn’t it?
The same principle applies here. It would’ve been super impressive if mathematicians could a priori deduce which mathematical object in particular describes the fundamental nature of reality - to the point that we would indeed have to rethink the importance of empiricism as well as the established laws of thermodynamics.
On the other hand, when you try to explore all kind of premises and their conclusions, it’s no surprise that one non-specific of them happened to fit reality. We would still need to do the actual work and look through all of them, comparing them to the reality to figure out which one it is.
Realism Doesn’t Help
Last but not the least, is that, even if fictionalism performed poorly in accounting for this aparent coincidence, realism does no better.
Let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that there exists a separate platonic realm about which mathematicians are reasoning. And then it just so happens that reasoning about this realm are applicable to our physical universe. Why would it be any less of a coincidence?
Previously we were surprised by the correspondence between our armchair reasoning and physical reality. Now we are, likewise, surprised by the correspondence between physical reality and platonic realm. The fact that our reasoning got an external referent doesn’t make this correspondence less improbable.
In fact, we would now also need to account for coincidence between platonic realm and our mathematical reasoning. How comes our brains have access to this separate realm, if they evolved in the physical reality? We can invent some just-so dualist explanation, but it will come with extra complexity penalty.
Imagine if someone tried to explain the similarity between Middle Earth and some discovered planet A by the fact that Tolkien was in contact with aliens from some completely different planet B. Not only this would not reduce the improbability of the initial coincidence, but it’s also an additional extraordinary claim that one has to justify.
What would help, is if there was some connection between planets A and B. If platonic realm was connected both to the mathematicians reasoning and to the physical world. But this connection is also an additional assumption which we’d need empirical evidence to back up. If a theory postulates something like this, it has to make some testable predictions about the nature of the connection, that have to come true to outweigh the complexity penalty.
And if we are ready to consider that there is a connection between our mathematical reasoning and physical universe through the platonic realm… why involve the platonic realm at all? Why not consider that there is a direct connection between mathematical reasoning and physical universe? That’s a strictly simpler theory, isn’t it?
Math As a Generalization of Observations
Wait… am I claiming that math is empirical? But isn’t it clearly absurd? Everyone knows that mathematical truths are certain while empiricism produces only probabilistic estimates!
I’ve briefly talked about this misconception in Give Skepticism a Try:
But let’s focus on this a little bit more. Consider these empirically testable hypotheses:
If there is one apple on the table and you put another apple on the table, there are now two apples on the table.
If there is one apple on the table and John puts another apple on the table, then there are two apples on the table.
If there is one orange on the couch and Mary puts another orange on the couch, then there are now two oranges on the couch.
If there is one apple on the table and an orange on the couch, and no other fruits on either of them, then, between a table and a couch, there are two fruits.
We can write a lot of such statements. For every type of object, for every type of actor, for every type of counting mechanism. Or we can generalize our observations and say:
For every object and process that work exactly like addition of natural numbers, one of such objects and another one of such objects submitted as an input of such process result in two of such objects.
Or even simpler:
1+1=2This is a tautology, of course. True by definition. True only for things that it’s true for; false otherwise. This is where the absolute certainty comes from.
Valid theoretical reasoning conserves truth. It allows us to outsource improbability from one part of the theory to another, while keeping total the same. With math we simply outsource all the improbability to the question of whether a particular real-world scenario fits our mathematical model.
This truth preservation property can be very powerful. We can deduce consequences of some assumptions and immediately apply them to any part of the real world about which we managed to become quite confident that it satisfies these assumptions. The latter is something that still require us to go outside and look and isn’t something we can be totally certain about.
And I understand why it may feel magical. But this is a magic rooted in empiricism about our physical reality. Only empiricism can reduce the improbability of a particular part of reality fitting specific mathematical axioms. Moreover, our ability to reason about properties of the universe and generalize patterns is the result of evolving inside this universe that has such properties in the first place.
Therefore, there is nothing weird about mathematical efficiency. Nor any incompatibility between math and empiricism or math and physicalism. We do not need the natural laws of the world to be “written in the language of mathematics”. It’s enough, that we can speak math ourselves.