Does Extreme Pain/Trauma Inherently Disrupt or "Kill" Consciousness/sentience? Biological vs. Fundamental, with Implications for Digital Minds — LessWrong
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what happens when pain becomes too much? Could overwhelming hurt break apart awareness itself ? like passing out or freezing up? or is that just one way biological bodies cope to stay alive? Suppose splitting apart under pressure isn’t inevitable, but optional. Then even artificial minds might avoid endless torment by design. But if collapse only occurs because biology evolved a cutoff point, sentient AI might suffer forever, never given a way out.
Right now, this matters a lot - linked tightly to suffering risks in aligned AI, ideas about awareness (IIT comes up frequently), plus logical thinking around machine minds. What stands out is uncertainty over whether breakdown happens through broken connections, like too much strain or split processes. Around 45 percent likely, I think. Biology-only causes sit at roughly 35 percent. The rest is Unknown, maybe something else entirely about 20 percent. New data could shift these views fast. Thinking shifts when clearer pictures come along.
Truth is, thinking about any mind, living or machine, stuck in endless agony unsettles me deeply. This possibility shakes me more than most outcomes of powerful artificial minds. Sometimes I catch myself wishing there were proof that unbearable suffering simply shuts awareness down.
no matter how hard it hits. i want to know the truth. Input from others helps me sort through what I really think.
When pain becomes too intense, people and animals may pass out, freeze up, or disconnect from reality. Fainting happens through a reflex that slows heart rate. Shutting down like this might help survival by avoiding worse injury. Some stop moving entirely. Others mentally check out while their body stays put. catatonia, etc.. Could such responses work outside biological bodies? Even if built differently than flesh and blood? is it like an inherent part of sentience architecture?
One idea comes from Integrated Information Theory - often called IIT. This approach links awareness to how tightly a system's parts work together, measured by something named Φ (phi). When shocks like injury flood the brain, that tight web might break apart. If so, Φ dips fast. Experience may stop. It fits certain gut feelings about blacking out under pressure.
Other threads touch suffering in feedback systems or unconscious pain processing.
Some say pain doesn’t necessarily lower Φ - maybe because it operates in isolated parts, or feeling good or bad isn’t tied to how unified the system is. Machines without living bodies might not faint or lose circulation, yet still face limits through glitches or capped processing, kind of like a stand-in for collapse.
Questions for the Community
Does IIT (or alternatives like GWT) predict inevitable disruption under extreme negative valence? What models/calculations exist?
Evidence for/against biology-specific vs. substrate-general?
Got any guesses or hunches? Maybe a link to something missed?
Appreciate your time if you reply. Just starting out here, so hearing what you think helps. Eager to pick up new things along the way.
what happens when pain becomes too much? Could overwhelming hurt break apart awareness itself ? like passing out or freezing up? or is that just one way biological bodies cope to stay alive? Suppose splitting apart under pressure isn’t inevitable, but optional. Then even artificial minds might avoid endless torment by design. But if collapse only occurs because biology evolved a cutoff point, sentient AI might suffer forever, never given a way out.
Right now, this matters a lot - linked tightly to suffering risks in aligned AI, ideas about awareness (IIT comes up frequently), plus logical thinking around machine minds. What stands out is uncertainty over whether breakdown happens through broken connections, like too much strain or split processes. Around 45 percent likely, I think. Biology-only causes sit at roughly 35 percent. The rest is Unknown, maybe something else entirely about 20 percent. New data could shift these views fast. Thinking shifts when clearer pictures come along.
Truth is, thinking about any mind, living or machine, stuck in endless agony unsettles me deeply. This possibility shakes me more than most outcomes of powerful artificial minds. Sometimes I catch myself wishing there were proof that unbearable suffering simply shuts awareness down.
no matter how hard it hits. i want to know the truth. Input from others helps me sort through what I really think.
When pain becomes too intense, people and animals may pass out, freeze up, or disconnect from reality. Fainting happens through a reflex that slows heart rate. Shutting down like this might help survival by avoiding worse injury. Some stop moving entirely. Others mentally check out while their body stays put. catatonia, etc..
Could such responses work outside biological bodies? Even if built differently than flesh and blood? is it like an inherent part of sentience architecture?
One idea comes from Integrated Information Theory - often called IIT. This approach links awareness to how tightly a system's parts work together, measured by something named Φ (phi). When shocks like injury flood the brain, that tight web might break apart. If so, Φ dips fast. Experience may stop. It fits certain gut feelings about blacking out under pressure.
However, LW has critiqued/expanded on this:
Some say pain doesn’t necessarily lower Φ - maybe because it operates in isolated parts, or feeling good or bad isn’t tied to how unified the system is. Machines without living bodies might not faint or lose circulation, yet still face limits through glitches or capped processing, kind of like a stand-in for collapse.
Questions for the Community
Does IIT (or alternatives like GWT) predict inevitable disruption under extreme negative valence? What models/calculations exist?
Evidence for/against biology-specific vs. substrate-general?
Got any guesses or hunches? Maybe a link to something missed?
Appreciate your time if you reply. Just starting out here, so hearing what you think helps. Eager to pick up new things along the way.