Class consciousness for those against the class system

[-]Rosencrantz2y50

I guess it'd be helpful to understand more about why you think class consciousness is in conflict with using "reason, negotiation, justice, goal factoring and pulling the rope sideways".

I would think (decent) trade union activity was precisely interested in reasonable negotiations targeted at justice for a group of people.

[-]TekhneMakre2y20

Because when you have an enemy, you try to

enforce your boundaries to exclude the enemy;
try to generally decrease your enemy's power, including cutting off resources, which includes lying to them and otherwise harming their thinking (think propaganda, gaslighting, misinformation, FUD);
view moves by the enemy as hostile--e.g. the enemy's public statements are propagandistic lies, the enemy's overtures for and moves within a negotiation are trying to dispossess you, etc.;
in particular you use the misinterpretations of your enemy's actions as hostile, to further strengthen your boundaries and internal unity of will;
and all of this escalates in a self-reinforcing way.

[-]Viliam2y40

I agree with some of your premises:

sometimes people have a common interest
sometimes they coordinate well about the common interest
and sometimes they don't
so the group that coordinates well typical wins over the group that does not

But the discussions about class struggle typically imply more things, such as:

most interests are so much correlated, that is makes sense to talk about clearly defined groups of people being in an eternal conflict against each other (as opposed to different coalitions for different interests)
it is all a zero-sum game (unless "our side" wins, and then it suddenly becomes a huge win for everyone)

There is a war, and to choose to ignore it is to roll over and die.

By a similar logic, one should join an organized crime group, because there is crime, and to choose to ignore it is to roll over and die.

(Or, imagine the same argument, except for a race war.)

[-]TekhneMakre2y20

I totally agree with what you say! ... And that's why I'm on the side of those against the system of conflict between groups of people with common interests amongst themselves, against the side of those in favor of that system.

That taking sides in this way, is paradoxical (cf. the paradox of intolerance), is why I asked:

How can those against the class system gain appropriate class consciousness without being thereby destroyed?

A key aspect of that is to not look away from the fact that there is a class struggle between those in favor of class struggle and those against it.

I think the key premise that you didn't say you agree with, is this: that there are people who are opposed to sharing information, pointing out norm violations, justice in general; perspective synthesizing, pulling the rope sideways. Cf. http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/notes-on-the-autobiography-of-malcolm-x-2/

[-]Viliam2y20

there are people who are opposed to sharing information, pointing out norm violations, justice in general; perspective synthesizing, pulling the rope sideways

Generally, I agree that these are bad people and should be opposed.

There are also situations where I might locally do a similar thing, for example sometimes I oppose doxing (which is a special case of "sharing information"), I might disapprove of reporting violation of specifics norms that I consider bad (such as copyright), etc.

[-]TekhneMakre2y20

But these people are in control of most institutions in our society. It's not a small problem.

[-]TekhneMakre2y-40

Jesus christ. Savages on lesswrong.

[-]andrew sauer1y10

What do you mean?

[-]TekhneMakre1y20

At some point the post was negative karma, I think; without anyone giving any indication as to why. A savage would be someone unable to think, which is evidenced by downvoting important antimemes without discussion.

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Class consciousness for those against the class system

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