he term I tend to think that one of the biggest problems in politics is that words become shibboleths within subcultures, and people in these communities don’t even know it. I recently had that starkly brought to my attention with the word “hacker”. My girlfriend was talking about setting up some home automation idea, and I said, “I can do it. I’m a hacker.”
She was confused. To her hacking means software intrusion through exploitation of security vulnerabilities. To me it means repurposing existing systems to do something not originally intended. I tend to think of her definition as “movie-style hackers”, or the white-hat/black-hat hackers.
I grew up in the 80s and 90s. I was one of the fortunate kid’s that had access to computers, and the ability to learn from reading manuals, and my own experimentation. I naturally fell into the, what we might now call the Maker culture. To people like us, (e.g. Adam Savage, and Corey Doctorow), “hacking” is a creative and explorative exercise.
I use like, “I can hack something together,” meaning “I can make it by repurposing some stuff I have laying around.” Or like, “that’s a clever hack,” meaning, “that’s not how things are supposed to work, but you found a clever work-around.” It’s even bled into mainstream US culture with terms like “life-hack” and “hardware-hacker.”
We in the community would call intrusion “cracking.” As in a “safe-cracker” or a “password cracker”. We use other words differently too, like “autodidact” being a term of pride as someone who learns on their own through exploration and research, rather than through formal instruction, which I’ve learned in the research community is a pejorative, ironically in this instance as a synonym for “a hack,” meaning not of professional quality.
So when my girlfriend and I had this disagreement, we went to several dictionaries. All of them supported her definition, and didn’t even list mine. I didn’t see my usage until I saw the “Hacker Culture” on Wikipedia. That’s when I realized what was going on: I had been using the term as a shibboleth.
Once I realized that, tabooing the word in our discussion got us back on track, but it really highlighted how invisible subtle differences in definitions can make communication difficult and cause disagreements. I think that most political disagreements suffer from this. I’m really trying to keep an eye out for that feeling of confusion that comes from talking with someone using the same words differently, and the hubris that comes from insisting that my definition is right.
Well, this comment is long enough. I’m in the weeds with work, and I really need to hack my way out of. 😉
The modern world does intentional large-scale chemical engineering, and this is meaningfully different in its scale and quickly-shifting nature than nearly anything that came before 1661. You can’t necessarily use the same analogical and cultural reasoning you would have used in 1660 to tell you what’s safe and what isn’t, in a world where everything you touch was chemically engineered.
You should be less confident in your understanding of the long-term consequences of eating Red Dye Number 40 than in your understanding of the long-term consequences of eating non-GMO wheat.
I'm not confident in this. I doubt analogical and cultural reasoning were ever that great. People in 1660 made use of lead and mercury, tobacco and ethanol.
If something is sufficiently obviously and rapidly poisonous, cultural knowledge will pick that up, but cultural knowledge like this isn't nearly as accurate as modern science. Most of our best knowledge about the health effects of wheat comes from modern science.
The phenomena of caring a lot about subtle long term health effects is relatively recent, driven in part by increased wealth.
Medieval peasants ate wheat, not because they had access to some cultural knowledge on wheat not having long term health effects. But because there weren't many other easy sources of calories around. The agricultural calorie economics basically forced them to eat mostly grain,
And, what was best to eat in a medieval context isn't necessarily what's best to eat now. (Eg ancient traditions about drinking beer because the water wasn't safe. This kind of cultural knowledge can go out of date for reasons other than artificial additives to foods. )
Yeah I agree you derive "water unsafe, beer safe" from the "old things good" heuristic. I think OP's main point is that being like "well actually" can be pretty obtuse, and the example is fine, it's just that Bouba's opinion happens to be debatable.
The Kikis are, generally speaking, much more knowledgeable about the details of chemistry. They might hang out around chemists, whose intellectual ancestors invented the precise definition of the word “chemical”.
What does "the precise definition of the word 'chemical'" mean? Are you claiming that there's a single definition that's somehow "the definition"? Different scientific fields that actually do need precise definitions usually do have their own definitions.
We do live a world where Calefornia has a very precise definition of what a fish happens to be that includes bees. Scientists don't have a monopoly on having precise definitions of terms, various fields do define their terms. I don't think you can safely assume that there's nobody that has a precise definition of the term chemical that goes along what the Boubas in your example mean.
Both the Kikis and the Boubas are not using words according to precise definitions. Kikis have intuitions that definitions that come out of one specific discourse are somehow privileged over definitions that come out of different discourses. They have misconceptions and believe that there aren't competing definitions in every discourse that cares about precisely defining its terms.
The fifth International Conference on Chemicals Management (ICCM5) with resolution V/1 adopted the Global Framework on Chemicals—For a Planet Free of Harm from Chemicals and Waste. When Kikis's are implying that such policy documents are problematic because they fail to have good definitions, that's usually comes out of ignorance of how regulations work and not of a good understanding of where a regulation might lack a precise regulations.
I mean to use "the precise definition" to identify it as the one that isn't "the specific definition" (based on the earlier comparison), not to say that it's the only precise definition or anything like that. i.e. I could have said "the comparatively more precise definition of these two" instead.
This makes the mistaken assumptions that there are somehow two definitions among which the debate rests and that those match what any scientist believes.
While there might something a definition of chemical that multiple people who say "“uh, everything is chemicals, what do you even mean?” use, that's not the precise definition of chemical that anybody in science who has actually a need for a precise definition would use.
As far as precision goes substance that falls under the preview of the REACH Regulation of the EU doesn't feel to me more vague than normal Kiki usage of the term chemical.
You should be less confident in your understanding of the long-term consequences of eating Red Dye Number 40 than in your understanding of the long-term consequences of eating non-GMO wheat. Pretending otherwise is silly.
It's worth here that the question of eating non-GMO wheat is in the current discourse essentially the question about whether gluten in the diet is a problem. Plenty of the Boubas don't like gluten either.
If the Boubas have an internally consistent definition then the Kikis are right to make them produce it so that a productive conversation can be had, the Kikis would no doubt readily supply their own if asked. I do not understand the instinct to suggest the Kikis are doing something not on the level here, productive discussions require work and sometimes rigor from both participants. If the Boubas are incapable or unwilling of doing their part it is a bit silly to blame the Kikis for not doing it for them.
If you are imagining that the Boubas do produce an internally consistent definition and then the conversation devolves into whose is "right" then I would agree that both parties are foolish in that instance.
Sadly, this assumes that all good arguments are legible.
I think we would both agree that there is a nonempty subset of chemicals that is dangerous for humans to eat, and that it would be very difficult to provide an exact definition of that set.
But that definition becomes useless if it isn't legible. The Boubas don't want chemicals in their food. If "chemical" means "harmful substance that I don't know how to specify", it's useless to say that they don't want chemicals in their food--how are they going to even deetermine that the food contains "chemicals" by their standard?
Also, the fact that they are even using the existing word "chemical" and not some phrase like "harmful chemical" implies that their definition has something to do with the characteristics of things called by the existing word, such as unfamiliar and long names. This is, of course, not a logical necessity, but people in the real world think this way, so it's a good bet.
So don't use the definition if it's useless. The object level conversation is very easy to access here. Say something like "do you mean GMOs?" and then ask them why they think GMOs are harmful. If their answer is "because GMOs are chemicals" then you say "why do you think chemicals are harmful?" and then you can continue conversing about whether GMOs are harmful.
Honestly I think it's net virtuous to track other people's definitions and let them modify them whenever they feel a need to. Aligning on definitions is expensive and always involves talking about edge cases that are rarely important to the subject at hand. (They're important when you're authoring laws or doing math, which I would count as expensive situations.) I'd just focus on object level like "GMOs are not harmful" and not concern myself with whether they take this to mean GMOs are not chemicals or chemicals are not always harmful.
So don’t use the definition if it’s useless.
It's not just the definition that's useless. The phrase itself becomes useless, because if the only way to know what they mean is by asking "do you mean X", the original statement about not wanting chemicals in their food fails to communicate anything useful.
Nobody has an internally consistent definition of anything, but it works out because people are usually talking about "typical X" not "edge case X." Bouba is probably thinking of pesticides or GMOs. So ask them why they think those things are harmful. By "not chemicals" they're probably thinking of water and apples. If you want their opinion of alcohol you can say "do you think alcohol is bad for you?" not "do you think alcohol counts as a chemical?"
You don't actually have to live your life by making every conversation one about hammering down definitions.
If they're just using the word "chemical" as an arbitrary word for "bad substance", you have the situation I already described: the word isn't communicating anything useful.
But in practice, someone who claims that they don't want chemicals in their food probably doesn't just mean "harmful substances". They probably mean that they have some criteria for what counts as a harmful substance, and that these criteria are based on traits of things that are commonly called chemicals. When you tell them "wait, water and salt are chemicals", what you're really doing is forcing them to state those criteria so you can contest them (and so they can become aware that that's what they're using).
Yeah you can totally try to force them to have a conversation about how to define chemical and you might even get into the meta about what constitutes proper rules of debate a bit. You can also say something like "by chemical you probably mean pesticides or GMOs, is that what you mean? why do you think they're harmful?" I think the latter sounds more useful and fun.
In practice, the meta is that they are confused and don't have a coherent idea of things they don't want in their food, except for superficial elements like having long names or being something they heard mentioned on Youtube. You could start questoning them about the details of things they don't like, but 1) you'll just end up telling them that long names and Youtube are a bad reason to avoid something and 2) their original statement about chemicals didn't communicate anything useful.
It isn't wrong to ask them for details of what they don't like, but they could have just as well started by saying "I don't like bad food additives" and you could have said exactly the same thing. The OP is pretending that "I don't like chemicals" says more than it actually does.
Wait, why do you think "additive" is acceptable and "chemical" isn't? I hereby force you to state your criteria for what substances count as additives so that I can contest them.
I don't think "additive" is acceptable. It has the same problems. The point is that the original statement isn't communicating anything. I pointed out that it is no better than other statements that don't communicate anything.
Oh I see. After saying "I don't like chemicals in my food" I understood something like, this person prefers organics. Are you not able to surmise this? If you're not, then you're definitely gaining less information when talking people than I am. I can generally communicate with people even if they use "chemical" imprecisely.
Just the fact this person makes low-information statements about a particular subject gives me information about what he thinks. But I wouldn't count that as getting information from those statements.
The statements "gives" you information but that doesn't "count" as you "getting" information. Furthermore the "low-information" statement mysteriously gives you information, yet not quite enough information to count as not a "low-information" statement. Okay, so this isn't about communicating information, it's about communicating information with a twist -- it also has to count. If your interlocutor communicates successfully but it doesn't count, you're allowed to make a definition challenge, where they have to provide a set of criteria you're allowed to attack. They then try to defend their criteria while you try to attack it, and if they defeat the definition challenge you're allowed to move onto the next message in the initial communication.
Okay so why would anyone ever agree to play this game? It sounds completely not fun and like it's optimized for the most uninformative things you could talk about.
The statements “gives” you information but that doesn’t “count” as you “getting” information.
It's literally true that I got information, but I didn't get information from it in the ordinary sense of "I parsed his words, and his words said something about X, so now I know the thing about X that is described by his words".
There's a difference between the information content of the statement, and the information that may be concluded from the statement in context. For instance, if I ask someone a question and he responds by snoring I may conclude that he is asleep. But I wouldn't describe that (non-figuratively) as "he told me that he is asleep". He didn't tell me that; he told me nothing meaningful, even though I deduced things from it.
Just like I know that snoring people are often asleep, I know that people who complain about "chemicals" often like organic food. That doesn't mean that either snores or statements about chemicals have any meaningful information.
I realized I was making inferences for what you mean by "ordinary senses" and "information content." Can you please give your criteria for these two things so I can begin contesting them? I'm concerned you communicated no "ordinary sense" information in your preceding comment and there was zero information content, and I'm trying out your style where that preempts the rest of the conversation flow.
All conversation requires some common ground. If you actually don't know what I meant, there's not much I can do to help you.
(Also, notice that "ordinary sense of" is followed by an explanation? I don't see why you'd need another explanation after that.)
Interesting, that's how I feel about people who say the word "chemical" to mean "pesticides and stuff."
One example: For decades, we ate large amounts of vegetable shortening and margarine made from a chemical process that creates trans fats. Only relatively recently we became sure that trans fats cause heart disease, and restrictions about trans fat contents where put in place in many countries. See this Wikipedia article.
A major problem seems to be that many engineered things we eat every day were invented before rigorous food testing was mandatory. Since retroactively banning all this stuff is not realistic, we have to live with the risk of finding more such cases in the future. Similar things hold for other products, like specialized substances in food packaging, etc.
The thing is that it's not a matter of different definitions at all. The Boubas don't have a definition, and they are not "internally consistent", not even vaguely so. A "chemical" is "anything that seems weird or artificial", which no two of them will agree on in every case. There is no shared criterion, even among themselves, for deciding what qualifies.
Also, I can pretty much guarantee you that people did some pretty sketchy stuff with food in 1660.
Sorry, no, sometimes people are just wrong.
I think we disagree about what a definition is, in natural language.
I think it's fair to say that you and I have an internally-consistent-though-vague definition of the word "sandwich", even though I'm sure there are astronomically many edge-case examples for which we would answer differently. And in fact this is probably true for almost literally every non-mathematical noun or verb that we both "know", albeit to varying degrees.
Edited to add: It suddenly seems likely to me that I should be using the word "meaning" rather than "definition" here, but the rest of the post goes through fine if I make that switch.
"Sandwich" is still more tightly defined than their version of "chemical", and is still a useful concept that "carves reality at the joints" even if it's a bit fuzzy about which side of each joint it's cutting on.
You'd have to go all the way to "bad stuff" to get a comparably bad definition.
I wonder if we should bet about something here. It seems plausible that we would make different predictions about how much agreement there would be on what is a "chemical", if you were to explain about the structure, manufacturing, and acquisition of a given substance.
this does still have issues, if someone is horrified by riboflavin but makes sure to have plenty of vitamin . I'm expecting that people who are "chemical avoidant" ordinarily implement rather surface-level pattern matching of what qualifies, but if you provide them with detailed explanations of how specific names actually arise, they might match on the explanation rather than the name. still, I expect they'll have a high rate of weird edge cases.
I haven’t looked it up; I’m going to live with the risk that I’m wrong, and so are you.
No, I don't think I will. I started learning about chemistry largely to be able to read ingredient labels and know what things in them are safe. And now, when it comes to molecular toxicology, I'm one of the best in the world.
Some people (the “Boubas”) don’t like “chemicals” in their food. But other people (the “Kikis”) are like, “uh, everything is chemicals, what do you even mean?”
The Boubas are using the word “chemical” differently than the Kikis, and the way they’re using it is simultaneously more specific and less precise than the way the Kikis use it. I think most Kikis implicitly know this, but their identities are typically tied up in being the kind of person who “knows what ‘chemical’ means”, and… you’ve gotta use that kind of thing whenever you can, I guess?
There is no single privileged universally-correct answer to the question “what does ‘chemical’ mean?”, because the Boubas exist and are using the word differently than Kikis, and in an internally-consistent (though vague) way.
The Kikis are, generally speaking, much more knowledgeable about the details of chemistry. They might hang out around chemists, whose intellectual ancestors invented the precise definition of the word “chemical”. Or they (we) might just be the kind of person to bank on their knowledge of things-like-chemistry. It’s easy to assume that the Kikis must be right that “avoiding chemicals” is silly, since they seem to know so much more.
But the Boubas are pointing to a real thing that Kikis seem weirdly inclined to assume away: The modern world does intentional large-scale chemical engineering, and this is meaningfully different in its scale and quickly-shifting nature than nearly anything that came before 1661. You can’t necessarily use the same analogical and cultural reasoning you would have used in 1660 to tell you what’s safe and what isn’t, in a world where everything you touch was chemically engineered.
Which is not to say that the Boubas are right to avoid all (Bouba-defined) chemicals in their food! But it is to say that reversed stupidity is not intelligence: You should be less confident in your understanding of the long-term consequences of eating Red Dye Number 40 than in your understanding of the long-term consequences of eating non-GMO wheat. Pretending otherwise is silly. At the same time, risks do not inherently outweigh benefits! Red Dye Number 40 is very pretty! I’d guess that food preservatives have saved or enabled millions of lives! I haven’t looked it up; I’m going to live with the risk that I’m wrong, and so are you.