I've seen a bunch of places where them people in the AI Optimism cluster dismiss arguments that use evolution as an analogy (for anything?) because they consider it debunked by Evolution provides no evidence for the sharp left turn. I think many people (including myself) think that piece didn't at all fully debunk the use of evolution arguments when discussing misalignment risk. A people have written what I think are good responses to that piece; many of the comments, especially this one, and someposts.
I don't really know what to do here. The arguments often look like: A: "Here's an evolution analogy which I think backs up my claims." B: "I think the evolution analogy has been debunked and I don't consider your argument to be valid." A: "I disagree that the analogy has been debunked, and think evolutionary analogies are valid and useful".
The AI Optimists seem reasonably unwilling to rehash the evolution analogy argument, because they consider this settled (I hope I'm not being uncharitable here). I think this is often a reasonable move, like I'm not particularly interested in arguing about climate change or flat-earth because I do consider these settled. But I do think that the evolution analogy argument is not settled.
One might think that the obvious move here is to go to the object-level. But this would just be attempting to rehash the evolution analogy argument again; a thing that the AI Optimists seem (maybe reasonably) unwilling to do.
people have written what I think are good responses to that piece; many of the comments, especially this one, and some posts.
There are responses by Quintin Pope and Ryan Greenblatt that addressed their points, where Ryan Greenblatt pointed out that the argument used in support of autonomous learning is only distinguishable from supervised learning if there are data limitations, and we can tell an analogous story about supervised learning having a fast takeoff without data limitations, and Quintin Pope has massive comments that I can't really summarize, ... (read more)
Yeah, I agree with this, we should be able to usually talk about object level things.
Although (as you note in your other comment) evolution is useful for thinking about inner optimizers, deceptive alignment etc. I think that thinking about "optimizers" (what things create optimizers? what will the optimizers do? etc) is pretty hard, and at least I think it's useful to be able to look at the one concrete case where some process created a generally competent optimizer