My sense is that you'll keep generating reasons [...] no matter what I say
Thanks for articulating a specific way in which you think I'm being systematically dumb! This is super helpful, because it makes it clear how to proceed: I can either bite the bullet ("Yes, and I'd be right to keep generating such reasons, because ...") or try to provide evidence that I'm not being stupid in that particular way.
As it happens, I do not want to bite this bullet; I think I'm smarter than your model of me, and I'm eager to prove it by addressing your cruxes. (I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it.)
One sub-crux is "people don't get sick of you and stop talking to you" (or, people get sick of a given discussion area being drama-prone)
I agree that this is a real risk![1] You mention Vaniver's comment, which mentions that the Royal Society prioritized keeping the conversation going. I think I also prioritize this: in yet-unpublished work,[2] I talk about how in politically charged Twitter discussions, I sometimes try to use the minimal amount of strategic bad faith needed to keep the discussion going, when I suspect my interlocutor would hang up the phone if they knew what I was really thinking.
Another sub-crux is "phrasing things in a triggery-way makes people feel less safe (and then less willing to open up and share vulnerable information), and also makes people more fight-minded and think less rationaly (i.e. less able to process information correctly)."
All other things being equal, I agree that this is a relevant consideration. Correspondingly, I think I do pay a fair amount of attention to word choice depending on what I'm trying to convey to what audience. I admit that I often end up going with a relatively "fighty" tone when it feels appropriate for what I'm trying to do, but ... I also often don't? If someone wanted to persuade me to change my policy here, I'd need specific examples of things I've written that are allegedly making people feel unsafe.
I suspect a crux there is that I'm more likely to interpret feelings of unsafety as a decision-theoretic extortion attempt, that sometimes people feel unsafe because the elephant in their brain can predict that others will offer to distort shared maps as a concession to make them feel safe.
Did you notice how I started this comment by thanking you for expressing a negative opinion of my rationality? That was very deliberate on my part: I'm trying to make it cheap to criticize me. It may not be the same thing you're calling tact, but it seems related (in being an attempt to shape incentives to favor opening up).
don't seem to engage at all with the actual social question of how to build a truthseeking institution
I agree that I've been focusing on individual practice rather than institution-building. Someone who was focusing on institution-building might therefore find my meta-discoursey posts less interesting. (I think my mathposts should be good either way.)
A big crux here is that I think institutions are often dumber than their members as individuals and that you can build more interesting systems out of smarter bricks. I'm not eager to pay the costs of coordinating for some alleged collective benefit that I mostly just don't think is real in the first place.
to be able to answer the question "how would you know if it were too high or too low?", and that's the sort of thing I'd find actually persuasive here.
I mean, I definitely think that an intellectual forum where people were routinely making off-topic personal insults should be moderated to require more tact (e.g., by instituting an enforced rule against off-topic personal insults). Is that still too ideological for you (because I expect to be able to appeal to principles like speech being "on topic", rather than empirically checking how people are feeling)?
I almost left off the last paragraph because it seemed to push the comment in a more political-fight-y direction [...] I'm not sure whether was the right call
I'm glad you included it! It was a great paragraph! More generally, I think heuristics for limiting damage from political fights by means of hiding them are going to generalize poorly to this particular conflict, which is very weird because my side of the conflict is specifically fighting to reveal information about hidden conflicts.
As an aside, in a recent email thread with Ben, Jessica, and Michael after not being part of their clique for 2½ years, I was disappointed with some aspects of their performance; I worry that almost everyone in a position to find flaws in their ideology has written them off and been written off by them. I want to figure out how to sic Said on them. ↩︎
Possibly worth yanking out into its own post? (Working title: "Good Bad Faith".) ↩︎
Someone once told me that they thought I acted like refusing to employ the bare minimum of social grace was a virtue, and that this was bad. (I'm paraphrasing; they actually used a different word that starts with b.)
I definitely don't want to say that lack of social grace is unambiguously a virtue. Humans are social animals, so the set of human virtues is almost certainly going to involve doing social things gracefully!
Nevertheless, I will bite the bullet on a weaker claim. Politeness is, to a large extent, about concealing or obfuscating information that someone would prefer not to be revealed—that's why we recognize the difference between one's honest opinion, and what one says when one is "just being polite." Idealized honest Bayesian reasoners would not have social graces—and therefore, humans trying to imitate idealized honest Bayesian reasoners will tend to bump up against (or smash right through) the bare minimum of social grace. In this sense, we might say that the lack of social grace is an "epistemic" virtue—even if it's probably not great for normal humans trying to live normal human lives.
Let me illustrate what I mean with one fictional and one real-life example.
The beginning of the film The Invention of Lying (before the eponymous invention of lying) depicts an alternate world in which everyone is radically honest—not just in the narrow sense of not lying, but more broadly saying exactly what's on their mind, without thought of concealment.
In one scene, our everyman protagonist is on a date at a restaurant with an attractive woman.
"I'm very embarrassed I work here," says the waiter. "And you're very pretty," he tells the woman. "That only makes this worse."
"Your sister?" the waiter then asks our protagonist.
"No," says our everyman.
"Daughter?"
"No."
"She's way out of your league."
"... thank you."
The woman's cell phone rings. She explains that it's her mother, probably calling to check on the date.
"Hello?" she answers the phone—still at the table, with our protagonist hearing every word. "Yes, I'm with him right now. ... No, not very attractive. ... No, doesn't make much money. It's alright, though, seems nice, kind of funny. ... A bit fat. ... Has a funny little—snub nose, kind of like a frog in the—facial ... No, I won't be sleeping with him tonight. ... No, probably not even a kiss. ... Okay, you too, 'bye."
The scene is funny because of how it violates the expected social conventions of our own world. In our world, politeness demands that you not say negative-valence things about someone in front of them, because people don't like hearing negative-valence things about themselves. Someone in our world who behaved like the woman in this scene—calling someone ugly and poor and fat right in front of them—could only be acting out of deliberate cruelty.
But the people in the movie aren't like us. Having taken the call, why should she speak any differently just because the man she was talking about could hear? Why would he object? To a decision-theoretic agent, the value of information is always nonnegative. Given that his date thought he was unattractive, how could it be worse for him to know rather than not-know?
For humans from our world, these questions do have answers—complicated answers having to do with things like map–territory confusions that make receiving bad news seem like a bad event (rather than the good event of learning information about how things were already bad, whether or not you knew it), and how it's advantageous for others to have positive-valence false beliefs about oneself.
The world of The Invention of Lying is simpler, clearer, easier to navigate than our world. There, you don't have to worry whether people don't like you and are planning to harm your interests. They'll tell you.
In "Los Alamos From Below", physicist Richard Feynman's account of his work on the Manhattan Project to build the first atomic bomb, Feynman recalls being sought out by a much more senior physicist specifically for his lack of social graces:
Someone who felt uncomfortable with Feynman's bluntness and wanted to believe that there's no conflict between rationality and social graces might argue that Feynman's "simple proposition" is actually wrong insofar as it fails to appreciate the map–territory distinction: in saying, "No, it's not going to work", was not Feynman implicitly asserting that just because he couldn't see a way to make it work, it simply couldn't? And in general, shouldn't you know who you're talking to? Wasn't Bohr, the Nobel prize winner, more likely to be right than Feynman, the fresh young Ph.D. (at the time)?
While not entirely without merit (it's true that the map is not the territory; it's true that authority is not without evidential weight), attending overmuch to such nuances distracts from worrying about the physics, which is what Bohr wanted out of Feynman—and, incidentally, what I want out of my readers. I would not expect readers to confirm interpretations with me before publishing a critique. If the post looks lousy, say it looks lousy. If it looks good, say it looks good. Simple proposition.