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[-]quila130

i currently believe that working on superintelligence-alignment is likely the correct choice from a fully-negative-utilitarian perspective.[1]

for others, this may be an intuitive statement or unquestioned premise. for me it is not, and i'd like to state my reasons for believing it, partially as a response to this post concerned about negative utilitarians trying to accelerate progress towards an unaligned-ai-takeover.

there was a period during which i was more uncertain about this question, and avoided openly sharing minimally-dual-use alignment research (but did not try to accelerate progress towards a nonaligned-takeover) while resolving that uncertainty.

a few relevant updates since then:

  1. decrease on the probability that the values an aligned AI would have would endorse human-caused moral catastrophes such as human-caused animal suffering.

    i did not automatically believe humans to be good-by-default, and wanted to take time to seriously consider what i think should be a default hypothesis-for-consideration upon existing in a society that generally accepts an ongoing mass torture event.
  2. awareness of vastly worse possible s-risks.

    factory farming is a form of physical torture, by w
... (read more)
4Tamsin Leake
Considering how loog it took me to get that by this you mean "not dual-use", I expect some others just won't get it.
3Kaj_Sotala
You may find Superintelligence as a Cause or Cure for Risks of Astronomical Suffering of interest; among other things, it discusses s-risks that might come about from having unaligned AGI.
3quila
thanks for sharing. here's my thoughts on the possibilities in the quote. Suffering subroutines - maybe 10-20% likely. i don't think suffering reduces to "pre-determined response patterns for undesirable situations," because i can think of simple algorithmic examples of that which don't seem like suffering. suffering feels like it's about the sense of aversion/badness (often in response a situation), and not about the policy "in <situation>, steer towards <new situation>". (maybe humans were instilled with a policy of steering away from 'suffering' states generally, and that's why evolution made us enter those states in some types of situation?). (though i'm confused about what suffering really is) i would also give the example of positive-feeling emotions sometimes being narrowly directed. for example, someone can feel 'excitement/joy' about a gift or event and want to <go to/participate in> it. sexual and romantic subroutines can also be both narrowly-directed and positive-feeling. though these examples lack the element of a situation being steered away from, vs steering (from e.g any neutral situation) towards other ones. Suffering simulations - seems likely (75%?) for the estimation of universal attributes, such as the distribution of values. my main uncertainty is about whether there's some other way for the ASIs to compute that information which is simple enough to be suffering free. this also seems lower magnitude than other classes, because (unless it's being calculated indefinetely for ever-greater precision) this computation terminates at some point, rather than lasting until heat death (or forever if it turns out that's avoidable). Blackmail - i don't feel knowledgeable enough about decision theory to put a probability on this one, but in the case where it works (or is precommitted to under uncertainty in hopes that it works), it's unfortunately a case where building aligned ASI would incentive unaligned entities to do it. Flawed realization - again
3Kaj_Sotala
Yeah, I agree with this to be clear. Our intended claim wasn't that just "pre-determined response patterns for undesirable situations" would be enough for suffering. Actually, there were meant to be two separate claims, which I guess we should have distinguished more clearly: 1) If evolution stumbled on pain and suffering, those might be relatively easy and natural ways to get a mind to do something. So an AGI that built other AGIs might also build them to experience pain and suffering (that it was entirely indifferent to), if that happened to be an effective motivational system. 2) If this did happen, then there's also some speculation suggesting that an AI that wanted to stay in charge might not want to give its worker AGIs things much in the way of things that looked like positive emotions, but did have a reason to give them things that looked like negative emotions. Which would then tilt the balance of pleasure vs. pain in the post-AGI world much more heavily in favor of (emotional) pain. Now the second claim is much more speculative and I don't even know if I'd consider it a particularly likely scenario (probably not); we just put it in since much of the paper was just generally listing various possibilities of what might happen. But the first claim - that since all the biological minds we know of seem to run on something like pain and pleasure, we should put a substantial probability on AGI architectures also ending up with something like that - seems much stronger to me.
[-]quila137

On Pivotal Acts

(edit: status: not a crux, instead downstream of different beliefs about what the first safe ASI will look like in predicted futures where it exists. If I instead believed 'task-aligned superintelligent agents' were the most feasible form of pivotally useful AI, I would then support their use for pivotal acts.)

I was rereading some of the old literature on alignment research sharing policies after Tamsin Leake's recent post and came across some discussion of pivotal acts as well.

Hiring people for your pivotal act project is going to be tricky. [...] People on your team will have a low trust and/or adversarial stance towards neighboring institutions and collaborators, and will have a hard time forming good-faith collaboration. This will alienate other institutions and make them not want to work with you or be supportive of you.

This is in a context where the 'pivotal act' example is using a safe ASI to shut down all AI labs.[1]

My thought is that I don't see why a pivotal act needs to be that. I don't see why shutting down AI labs or using nanotech to disassemble GPUs on Earth would be necessary. These may be among the 'most direct' or 'simplest to imagine' possible... (read more)

8Wei Dai
I think it is considered a constraint by some because they think that it would be easier/safer to use a superintelligent AI to do simpler actions, while alignment is not yet fully solved. In other words, if alignment was fully solved, then you could use it to do complicated things like what you suggest, but there could be an intermediate stage of alignment progress where you could safely use SI to do something simple like "melt GPUs" but not to achieve more complex goals.
5quila
Agreed that some think this, and agreed that formally specifying a simple action policy is easier than a more complex one.[1]  I have a different model of what the earliest safe ASI will look like, in most futures where one exists. Rather than a 'task-aligned' agent, I expect it to be a non-agentic system which can be used to e.g come up with pivotal actions for the human group to take / information to act on.[2] 1. ^ although formal 'task-aligned agency' seems potentially more complex than the attempt at a 'full' outer alignment solution that I'm aware of (QACI), as in specifying what a {GPU, AI lab, shutdown of an AI lab} is seems more complex than it. 2. ^ I think these systems are more attainable, see this post to possibly infer more info (it's proven very difficult for me to write in a way that I expect will be moving to people who have a model focused on 'formal inner + formal outer alignment', but I think evhub has done so well).
3quila
Reflecting on this more, I wrote in a discord server (then edited to post here): I wasn't aware the concept of pivotal acts was entangled with the frame of formal inner+outer alignment as the only (or only feasible?) way to cause safe ASI. I suspect that by default, I and someone operating in that frame might mutually believe each others agendas to be probably-doomed. This could make discussion more valuable (as in that case, at least one of us should make a large update). For anyone interested in trying that discussion, I'd be curious what you think of the post linked above. As a comment on it says: In my view, solving formal inner alignment, i.e. devising a general method to create ASI with any specified output-selection policy, is hard enough that I don't expect it to be done.[1] This is why I've been focusing on other approaches which I believe are more likely to succeed.   1. ^ Though I encourage anyone who understands the problem and thinks they can solve it to try to prove me wrong! I can sure see some directions and I think a very creative human could solve it in principle. But I also think a very creative human might find a different class of solution that can be achieved sooner. (Like I've been trying to do :)
5mako yass
Imagining a pivotal act of generating very convincing arguments for like voting and parliamentary systems that would turn government into 1) an working democracy 2) that's capable of solving the problem. Citizens and congress read arguments, get fired up, problem is solved through proper channels.
4Vladimir_Nesov
See minimality principle:
2mesaoptimizer
Okay. Why do you think Eliezer proposed that, then?
1quila
(see reply to Wei Dai)
[-]quila110

edit: i think i've received enough expressions of interest (more would have diminishing value but you're still welcome to), thanks everyone!

i recall reading in one of the MIRI posts that Eliezer believed a 'world model violation' would be needed for success to be likely.

i believe i may be in possession of such a model violation and am working to formalize it, where by formalize i mean write in a way that is not 'hard-to-understand intuitions' but 'very clear text that leaves little possibility for disagreement once understood'. it wouldn't solve the problem, but i think it would make it simpler so that maybe the community could solve it.

if you'd be interested in providing feedback on such a 'clearly written version', please let me know as a comment or message.[1] (you're not committing to anything by doing so, rather just saying "im a kind of person who would be interested in this if your claim is true"). to me, the ideal feedback is from someone who can look at the idea under 'hard' assumptions (of the type MIRI has) about the difficulty of pointing an ASI, and see if the idea seems promising (or 'like a relevant model violation') from that perspective.

  1. ^

    i don't have many cont

... (read more)
[This comment is no longer endorsed by its author]Reply
7Seth Herd
I'm game! We should be looking for new ideas, so I'm happy to look at yours and provide feedback.
5quetzal_rainbow
Consider me in
5Garrett Baker
Historically I’ve been able to understand others’ vague ideas & use them in ways they endorse. I can’t promise I’ll read what you send me, but I am interested.
2Joel Burget
Maybe you can say a bit about what background someone should have to be able to evaluate your idea.
[-]quila100

A quote from an old Nate Soares post that I really liked:

It is there, while staring the dark world in the face, that I find a deep well of intrinsic drive. It is there that my resolve and determination come to me, rather than me having to go hunting for them.

I find it amusing that "we need lies because we can't bear the truth" is such a common refrain, given how much of my drive stems from my response to attempting to bear the truth.

I find that it's common for people to tell themselves that they need the lies in order to bear reality. In fact, I bet that many of you can think of one thing off the top of your heads that you're intentionally tolerifying, because the truth is too scary to even consider. (I've seen at least a dozen failed relationships dragged out for months and months due to this effect.)

I say, if you want the intrinsic drive, drop the illusion. Refuse to tolerify. Face the facts that you feared you would not be able to handle. You are likely correct that they will be hard to bear, and you are likely correct that attempting to bear them will change you. But that change doesn't need to break you. It can also make you stronger, and fuel your resolve.

So see the dark worl

... (read more)
[-]quila104

(Personal) On writing and (not) speaking

I often struggle to find words and sentences that match what I intend to communicate.

Here are some problems this can cause:

  1. Wordings that are odd or unintuitive to the reader, but that are at least literally correct.[1]
  2. Not being able express what I mean, and having to choose between not writing it, or risking miscommunication by trying anyways. I tend to choose the former unless I'm writing to a close friend. Unfortunately this means I am unable to express some key insights to a general audience.
  3. Writing taking lots of time: I usually have to iterate many times on words/sentences until I find one which my mind parses as referring to what I intend. In the slowest cases, I might finalize only 2-10 words per minute. Even after iterating, my words are still sometimes interpreted in ways I failed to foresee.

These apply to speaking, too. If I speak what would be the 'first iteration' of a sentence, there's a good chance it won't create an interpretation matching what I intend to communicate. In spoken language I have no chance to constantly 'rewrite' my output before sending it. This is one reason, but not the only reason, that I've had a policy of t... (read more)

5Emrik
Aaron Bergman has a vid of himself typing new sentences in real-time, which I found really helpfwl.[1] I wish I could watch lots of people record themselves typing, so I could compare what I do. Being slow at writing can be sign of failure or winning, depending on the exact reasons why you're slow. I'd worry about being "too good" at writing, since that'd be evidence that your brain is conforming your thoughts to the language, instead of conforming your language to your thoughts. English is just a really poor medium for thought (at least compared to e.g. visuals and pre-word intuitive representations), so it's potentially dangerous to care overmuch about it. 1. ^ Btw, Aaron is another person-recommendation. He's awesome. Has really strong self-insight, goodness-of-heart, creativity. (Twitter profile, blog+podcast, EAF, links.) I haven't personally learned a whole bunch from him yet,[2] but I expect if he continues being what he is, he'll produce lots of cool stuff which I'll learn from later. 2. ^ Edit: I now recall that I've learned from him: screwworms (important), and the ubiquity of left-handed chirality in nature (mildly important). He also caused me to look into two-envelopes paradox, which was usefwl for me. Although I later learned about screwworms from Kevin Esvelt at 80kh podcast, so I would've learned it anyway. And I also later learned about left-handed chirality from Steve Mould on YT, but I may not have reflected on it as much.
1Aaron Bergman
Thank you, that is all very kind! ☺️☺️☺️ I hope so haha
1quila
Record yourself typing?
2Emrik
EDIT: I uploaded a better example here (18m18s):   Old example still here (7m25s).
1quila
I think I've become better at writing clearly, relative to before. Part of it is just practice. A lesson that also feels relevant: Write very precisely, meaning there is no non-trivial space of possible interpretations that you don't intend. Unless you do this, people may not respond to what you really mean, even if you consider it obvious.
1quila
Maybe someone has advice for finalizing-writing faster (not at the expense of clarity)? I think I can usually end up with something that's clear, at least if it's just a basic point that's compatible with the reader's ontology, but it still takes a long time.
1weightt an
It's also partially the problem with the recipient of communicated message. Sometimes you both have very different background assumptions/intuitive understandings. Sometimes it's just skill issue and the person you are talking to is bad at parsing and all the work of keeping the discussion on the important things / away from trivial undesirable sidelines is left to you. Certainly it's useful to know how to pick your battles and see if this discussion/dialogue is worth what you're getting out of it at all.

Here's a tampermonkey script that hides the agreement score on LessWrong. I wasn't enjoying this feature because I don't want my perception to be influenced by that; I want to judge purely based on ideas, and on my own.

Here's what it looks like:

// ==UserScript==
// @name         Hide LessWrong Agree/Disagree Votes
// @namespace    http://tampermonkey.net/
// @version      1.0
// @description  Hide agree/disagree votes on LessWrong comments.
// @author       ChatGPT4
// @match        https://www.lesswrong.com/*
// @grant        none
// ==/UserScript==

(fun
... (read more)
2Mir
I don't know the full original reasoning for why they introduced it, but one hope is that it marginally disentangles agreement from the main voting axis. People who were going to upvote based purely on agreement will now put their vote in the agreement axis instead (is the hope, anyway). Agreement-voting is socioepistemologically bad in general (except for in polls), so this seems good.

I was looking at this image in a post and it gave me some (loosely connected/ADD-type) thoughts.

In order:

  1. The entities outside the box look pretty scary.
  2. I think I would get over that quickly, they're just different evolved body shapes. The humans could seem scary-looking from their pov too.
  3. Wait.. but why would the robots have those big spiky teeth? (implicit question: what narratively coherent world could this depict?)
  4. Do these forms have qualities associated with predator species, and that's why they feel scary? (Is this a predator-species-world?)
  5. Most human
... (read more)
0Jay
I don't want to live in a world where there's only the final survivors of selection processes who shrug indifferently when asked why we don't revive all the beings who were killed in the process which created the final survivors. If you could revive all the victims of the selection process that brought us to the current state, all the crusaders and monarchists and vikings and Maoists and so, so many illiterate peasant farmers (on much too little land because you've got hundreds of generations of them at once, mostly with ideas that make Putin look like Sonia Sotomayor), would you?  They'd probably make quite the mess.  Bringing them back would probably restart the selection process and we probably wouldn't be selected again.  It just seems like a terrible idea to me.
5quila
Some clarifications: * I'm thinking of this in the context of a post-singularity future, where we wouldn't need to worry about things like conflict or selection processes. * By 'the ones who were killed in the process', I was thinking about e.g herbivorous animals that were killed by predator species[1], but you're correct that it could include humans too. A lot of humans have been unjustly killed (by others or by nature) throughout history. * I think my endorsed morals are indifferent about the (dis)value of reviving abusive minds from the past, though moral-patient-me dislikes the idea on an intuitive level, and wishes for a better narrative ending than that. (Also I upvoted your comment from negative) I also notice some implied hard moral questions (What of current mean-hearted people? What about the potential for past ones of them to have changed into good people? etc) 1. ^ As a clear example of a kind of being who seems innocent of wrongdoing. Not ruling out other cases, e.g plausibly inside the mind of the cat that I once witnessed killing a bunny, there could be total naivety about what was even being done. Sort-of relatedly, I basically view evolution as having favored the dominance of agents with defect-y decision-making, even though the equilibrium of 'collaborating with each other to harness the free energy of the sun' would have been so much better. (Maybe another reason that didn't happen is that there would be less of a gradual buildup of harder and harder training environments, in that case)
2Matthew Barnett
I'm curious why you seem to think we don't need to worry about things like conflict or selection processes post-singularity.
1quila
Because a benevolent ASI would make everything okay. (In case worrying about those is something you'd find fun, then you could choose to experience contexts where you still would, like complex game/fantasy worlds.)

random idea for a voting system (i'm a few centuries late. this is just for fun.)

instead of voting directly, everyone is assigned to a discussion group of x (say 5) of themself and others near them. the group meets to discuss at an official location (attendance is optional). only if those who showed up reach consensus does the group cast one vote.

many of these groups would not reach consensus, say 70-90%. that's fine. the point is that most of the ones which do would be composed of people who make and/or are receptive to valid arguments. this would then sh... (read more)

3sunwillrise
I strongly disagree with this, as a descriptive matter of how the vast majority of groups of regular (neurotypical) people function.  I would expect that the groups which reach consensus would generally do so because whichever of the 5 individuals has greatest combination of charisma, social skills, and assertiveness in dialogue would domineer the discussion and steer it in a direction where whoever else might disagree gets conversationally out-skilled to the point where social pressure from everyone else gets them to give up and drop their objections (likely by actually subjectively feeling that they get convinced by the arguments of the charismatic person, when in reality it's just social proof doing the work). I think the fact that you don't expect this to happen is more due to you improperly generalizing from the community of LW-attracted people (including yourself), whose average psychological make-up appears to me to be importantly different from that of the broader public.
7quila
Please don't make unfounded speculation[1] about my psychology. I feel pressured to respond just to say that's not true (that I am not generalizing from lesswrong users). (That was a possible failure mode mentioned, I don't know why you're reiterating it with just more detail). My impression was that many neurotypicals are used (/desensitized) to that happening by now and that there might frequently be attempts from multiple which would not be resolved. But this was not a strongly held belief, nor a topic that seems important at this phase of history; it was just a fun-idea-shortform. I feel discouraged by what I perceive to be the assertiveness/assumingness of your comment. 1. ^ (edit: I agree correctly-hedged speculation is okay and would have been okay here, I meant something like confidently-expressed claims about another user's mind with low evidence.)
3sunwillrise
I disagree that the speculation was unfounded. I checked your profile before making that comment (presumably written by you, and thus a very well-founded source) and saw "~ autistic." I would not have made that statement, as written, if this had not been the case (for instance the part of "including yourself"). Then, given my past experience with similar proposals that were written about on LW, in which other users correctly pointed out the problems with the proposal and it was revealed that the OP was implicitly making assumptions that the broader community was akin to that of LW, it was reasonable to infer that the same was happening here. (It still seems reasonable to infer this, regardless of your comment, but that is beside the point.) In any case, I said "think" which signaled that I understood my speculation was not necessarily correct.  I have written up my thoughts before on why good moderation practices should not allow for the mind-reading of others, but I strongly oppose any norm that says the mere speculation, explicitly labeled as such through language that signals some epistemic humility, is inherently bad. I even more strongly oppose a norm that other users feeling pressured to respond should have a meaningful impact on whether a comment is proper or not. I expect your comment to not have been a claim about the norms of LW, but rather a personal request. If so, I do not expect to comply (unless required to by moderation).
5quila
I don't agree that my bio stating I'm autistic[1] is strong/relevant* evidence that I assume the rest of the world is like me or LessWrong users, I'm very aware that this is not the case. I feel a lot of uncertainty about what happens inside the minds of neurotypical people (and most others), but I know they're very different in various specific ways, and I don't think the assumption you inferred is one I make; it was directly implied in my shortform that neurotypicals engage in politics in a really irrational way, are influentiable by such social pressures as you (and I) mentioned, etc. *Technically, being a LessWrong user is some bayesian evidence that one makes that assumption, if that's all you know about them, so I added the hedge "strong/relevant", i.e. enough to reasonably cause one to write "I think you are making [clearly-wrong assumption x]" instead of using more uncertain phrasings. I agree that there are cases where feeling pressured to respond is acceptable. E.g., if someone writes a counterargument which one think misunderstands their position, they might feel some internal pressure to respond to correct this; I think that's okay, or at least unavoidable. I don't know how to define a general rule for determining when making-someone-feel-pressured is okay or not, but this seemed like a case where it was not okay: in my view, it was caused by an unfounded confident expression of belief about my mind. If you internally believe you had enough evidence to infer what you wrote at the level of confidence to just be prefaced with 'I think', perhaps it should not be against LW norms, though; I don't have strong opinions on what site norms should be, or how norms should differ when the subject is the internal mind of another user. More on norms: the assertive writing style of your two comments here seems also possibly norm-violating as well. Edit: I'm flagging this for moderator review. 1. ^ the "~ " you quoted is just a separator from the previ
5habryka
As a moderator: I do think sunwillrise was being a bit obnoxious here. I think the norms they used here were fine for frontpage LW posts, but shortform is trying to do something that is more casual and more welcoming of early-stage ideas, and this kind of psychologizing I think has reasonably strong chilling-effects on people feeling comfortable with that.  I don't think it's a huge deal, my best guess is I would just ask sunwillrise to comment less on quila's stuff in-particular, and if it becomes a recurring theme, to maybe more generally try to change how they comment on shortforms. I do think the issue here is kind of subtle. I definitely notice an immune reaction to sunwillrise's original comment, but I can't fully put into words why I have that reaction, and I would also have that reaction if it was made as a comment on a frontpage post (but I would just be more tolerant of it).  Like, I think my key issue here is that sunwillrise just started a whole new topic that quila had expressed no interest in talking about, which is the topic of "what are my biases on this topic, and if I am wrong, what would be the reason I am wrong?", which like, IDK, is a fine topic, but it is just a very different topic that doesn't really have anything to do with the object level. Like, whether quila is biased on this topic does not make a difference to question of whether this policy-esque proposal would be a good idea, and I think quila (and most other readers) are usually more interested in discussing that then meta-level bias stuff. There is also a separate thing, where making this argument in some sense assumes that you are right, which I think is a fine thing to do, but does often make good discussion harder. Like, I think for comments, its usually best to focus on the disagreement, and not to invoke random other inferences about the world about what is true if you are right. There can be a place for that, especially if it helps illucidate your underlying world model, bu
1sunwillrise
Separately from the more meta discussion about norms, I believe the failure mode I mentioned is quite different from yours in an important respect that is revealed by the potential remedy you pointed out ("have each discussion group be composed of a proportional amount of each party's supporters. or maybe have them be 1-on-1 discussions instead of groups of x>2 because those tend to go better anyways"). Together with your explanation of the failure mode ("when e.g it's 3 against 2 or 4 against 1"), it seems to me like you are thinking of a situation where one Republican, for instance, is in a group with 4 Democrats, and thus feels pressure from all sides in a group discussion because everyone there has strong priors that disagree with his/hers. Or, as another example, when a person arguing for a minority position is faced with 4 others who might be aggresively conventional-minded and instantly disapprove of any deviation from the Overton window. (I could very easily be misinterpreting what you are saying, though, so I am less than 95% confident of your meaning.) In this spot, the remedy makes a lot of sense: prevent these gang-up-on-the-lonely-dissenter spots by making the ideological mix-up of the group more uniform or by encouraging 1-on-1 conversations in which each ideology or system of beliefs will only have one representative arguing for it. But I am talking about a failure mode that focuses on the power of one single individual to swing the room towards him/her, regardless of how many are initially on his/her side from a coalitional perspective. Not because those who disagree are initially in the minority and thus cowed into staying silent (and fuming, or in any case not being internally convinced), but rather because the "combination of charisma, social skills, and assertiveness in dialogue" would take control of the conversation and turn the entire room in its favor, likely by getting the others to genuinely believe that they are being persuaded for rati
1quila
I think this is a good object-level comment. Meta-level response about "did you mean this or rule it out/not have a world model where it happens?": Some senses in which you're right that it's not what I was meaning: * It's more specific/detailed. I was not thinking in this level of detail about how such discussions would play out. * I was thinking more about pressure than about charisma (where someone genuinely seems convincing). And yes, charisma could be even more powerful in a 1-on-1 setting. Senses in which it is what I meant: * This is not something my world model rules out, it just wasn't zoomed in on it, possibly because I'm used to sometimes experiencing a lot of pressure from neurotypical people over my beliefs. (that could have biased my internal frame to overfocus on pressure). * For the parts about more even distributions being better, it's more about: yes, these dynamics exist, but I thought they'd be even worse when combined with a background conformity pressure, e.g when there's one dominant-pressuring person and everyone but you passively agreeing with what they're saying, and tolerating it because they agree. Object-level response: (First, to be clear: the beliefs don't have to be closely-held; we'd see consensuses more often when for {all but at most one side} they're not) That seems plausible. We could put it into a (handwavey) calculation form, where P(1 dark arts arguer) is higher than P(5 truth-seekers). But it's actually a lot more complex; e.g., what about P(all opposing participants susceptible to such an arguer), or how e.g one more-truth-seeking attitude can influence others to have a similar attitude for that context. (and this is without me having good priors on the frequencies and degrees of these qualities, so I'm mostly uncertain). A world with such a proposal implemented might even then see training programs for clever dark arts arguing. (Kind of like I mentioned at the start, but again with me using the case of pressuri

Mutual Anthropic Capture, A Decision-theoretic Fermi paradox solution

(copied from discord, written for someone not fully familiar with rat jargon)
(don't read if you wish to avoid acausal theory)

simplified setup

  • there are two values. one wants to fill the universe with A, and the other with B.
  • for each of them, filling it halfway is really good, and filling it all the way is just a little bit better. in other words, they are non-linear utility functions.
  • whichever one comes into existence first can take control of the universe, and fill it with 100% of what th
... (read more)
2Anomalous
This is an awesome idea, thanks! I'm not sure I buy the conclusion, but expect having learned about "mutual anthropic capture" will be usefwl for my thinking on this.
[-]quila6-3

i am kind of worried by the possibility that this is not true: there is an 'ideal procedure for figuring out what is true'.

for that to be not true, it would mean that: for any (or some portion of?) task(s), the only way to solve it is through something like a learning/training process (in the AI sense), or other search-process-involving-checking. it would mean that there's no 'reason' behind the solution being what it is, it's just a {mathematical/logical/algorithmic/other isomorphism} coincidence.

for it to be true, i guess it would mean that there's anoth... (read more)

3Mitchell_Porter
I think there's no need to think of "training/learning" algorithms as absolutely distinct from "principled" algorithms. It's just that the understanding of why deep learning works is a little weak, so we don't know how to view it in a principled way. 
3quila
It sounds like you're saying, "deep learning itself is actually approximating some more ideal process." (I have no comments on that, but I find it interesting to think about what that process would be, and what its safety-relevant properties would be)
1[comment deleted]
[-]quila5-2

i'm watching Dominion again to remind myself of the world i live in, to regain passion to Make It Stop

it's already working.

7quila
when i was younger, pre-rationalist, i tried to go on hunger strike to push my abusive parent to stop funding this. they agreed to watch this as part of a negotiation. they watched part of it. they changed their behavior slightly -- as a negotiation -- for about a month. they didn't care. they looked horror in the eye. they didn't flinch. they saw themself in it.

negative values collaborate.

for negative values, as in values about what should not exist, matter can be both "not suffering" and "not a staple", and "not [any number of other things]".

negative values can collaborate with positive ones, although much less efficiently: the positive just need to make the slight trade of being "not ..." to gain matter from the negatives.

At what point should I post content as top-level posts rather than shortforms?

For example, a recent writing I posted to shortform was ~250 concise words plus an image. It would be a top-level post on my blog if I had one set up (maybe soon :p).

Some general guidelines on this would be helpful.

4niplav
This is a good question, especially since there've been some short form posts recently that are high quality and would've made good top-level posts—after all, posts can be short.
1Emrik
Epic Lizka post is epic. Also, I absolutely love the word "shard" but my brain refuses to use it because then it feels like we won't get credit for discovering these notions by ourselves. Well, also just because the words "domain", "context", "scope", "niche", "trigger", "preimage" (wrt to a neural function/policy / "neureme") adequately serve the same purpose and are currently more semantically/semiotically granular in my head. trigger/preimage ⊆ scope ⊆ domain[1] "niche" is a category in function space (including domain, operation, and codomain), "domain" is a set. "scope" is great because of programming connotations and can be used as a verb. "This neural function is scoped to these contexts." 1. ^ EDIT: ig I use "scope" and "domain" in a way which doesn't neatly mean one is a subset of the other. I want to be able to distinguish between "the set of inputs it's currently applied to" and "the set of inputs it should be applied to" and "the set of inputs it could be applied to", but I don't have adequate words here.

i tentatively think an automatically-herbivorous and mostly-asocial species/space-of-minds would have been morally best to be the one which first reached the capability threshold to start building technology and civilization.

  • herbivorous -> less ingrained biases against other species[1], no factory farming
  • asocial -> less dysfunctional dynamics within the species (like automatic status-seeking, rhetoric, etc), and less 'psychologically automatic processes' which fail to generalize out of the evolutionary distribution.[2]
  1. ^

    i expect there still would be s

... (read more)
1metachirality
I think asociality might prevent the development of altruistic ethics. Also it's hard to see how an asocial species would develop civilization.
1quila
same, but not sure, i was in the process of adding a comment about that they figure out planting and then rationally collaborate with each other? these might depend on 'degree of (a)sociality'. hard for me to imagine a fully asocial species though they might exist and i'd be interested to see examples. chatgpt says..
3metachirality
I feel like they would end up converging on the same problems that plague human sociality.

what should i do with strong claims whose reasons are not easy to articulate, or the culmination of a lot of smaller subjective impressions? should i just not say them publicly, to not conjunctively-cause needless drama? here's an example:

"i perceive the average LW commenter as maybe having read the sequences long ago, but if so having mostly forgotten their lessons."

2faul_sname
In the general case I don't have any particularly valuable guidance but on the object level for your particular hypothesis I'd say

'how to have ideas' (summary of a nonexistent post)

i saw a shortform from 4 years ago that said in passing:

if we assume that signaling is a huge force in human thinking

is signalling a huge force in human thinking?
if so, anyone want to give examples of ways of this that i, being autistic, may not have noticed?

3FlorianH
Difficult to overstate the role of signaling as a force in human thinking, indeed, few random examples: 1. Expensive clothes, rings, cars, houses: Signalling 'I've got a lot of spare resources, it's great to know me/don't mess with me/I won't rob you/I'm interesting/...' 2. Clothes of particular type -> signals your politica/religious/... views/lifestyle 3. Talking about interesting news/persons -> signals you can be a valid connection to have as you have links 4. In basic material economics/markets: All sorts of ways to signal your product is good (often economists refer to e.g.: insurance, public reviewing mechanism, publicity) 5. LW-er liking to get lots of upvotes to signal his intellect or simply for his post to be a priori not entirely unfounded 6. Us dumbly washing or ironing clothes or buying new clothes while stained-but-non-smelly or unironed or worn clothes would be functionally just as valuable - well if a major functionality would not exactly be, to signal wealth, care, status.. 7. Me teaching & consulting in a suit because the university uses an age old signalling tool to show: we care about our clients 8. Doc having his white suit to spread an air of professional doctor-hood to the patient he tricks into not questioning his suggestions and actions 9. Genetically: many sexually attractive traits have some origin in signaling good quality genes: directly functional body (say strong muscles) and/or 'proving spare resources to waste on useless signals' such as most egregiously for the Peacocks/Birds of paradise <- I think humans have the latter capacity too, though I might be wrong/no version comes to mind right now 10. Intellect etc.! There's lots of theory that much of our deeper thinking abilities were much less required for basic material survival (hunting etc.), than for social purposes: impress with our stories etc.; signal that what we want is good and not only self-serving. (ok, the latter maybe that is partly not pure 'signali
2eye96458
Does the preference forming process count as thinking?  If so, then I suspect that my desire to communicate that I am deep/unique/interesting to my peers is a major force in my preference for fringe and unpopular musical artists over Beyonce/Justin Bieber/Taylor Swift/etc.  It's not the only factor, but it is a significant one AFAICT. And I've also noticed that if I'm in a social context and I'm considering whether or not to use a narcotic (eg, alcohol), then I'm extremely concerned about what the other people around me will think about me abstaining (eg, I may want to avoid communicating that I disapprove of narcotic use or that I'm not fun).  In this case I'm just straight forwardly thinking about whether or not to take some action. Are these examples of the sort of thing you are interested in? Or maybe I am misunderstanding what is meant by the terms "thinking" and "signalling".

random (fun-to-me/not practical) observation: probability is not (necessarily) fundamental. we can imagine totally discrete mathematical worlds where it is possible for an entity inside it to observe the entirety of that world including itself. (let's say it monopolizes the discrete world and makes everything but itself into 1s so it can be easily compressed and stored in its world model such that the compressed data of both itself and the world can fit inside of the world)

this entity would be able to 'know' (prove?) with certainty everything about that ma... (read more)

Platonism

(status: uninterpretable for 2/4 reviewers, the understanding two being friends who are used to my writing style; i'll aim to write something that makes this concept simple to read)

'Platonic' is a categorization I use internally, and my agenda is currently the search for methods to ensure AI/ASI will have this property.

With this word, I mean this category acceptance/rejection:
✅ Has no goals

✅ Has goals about what to do in isolation. Example: "in isolation from any world, (try to) output A"[1]

❌ Has goals related to physical world states. Example: "(... (read more)

my language progression on something, becoming increasingly general: goals/value function -> decision policy (not all functions need to be optimizing towards a terminal value) -> output policy (not all systems need to be agents) -> policy (in the space of all possible systems, there exist some whose architectures do not converge to output layer)

(note: this language isn't meant to imply that systems behavior must be describable with some simple function, in the limit the descriptive function and the neural network are the same)

I'm interested in joining a community or research organization of technical alignment researchers who care about and take seriously astronomical-suffering risks. I'd appreciate being pointed in the direction of such a community if one exists.

story for how future LLM training setups could create a world-valuing (-> instrumentally converging) agent:

the initial training task of predicting a vast amount of data from the general human dataset creates an AI that's ~just 'the structure of prediction', a predefined process which computes the answer to the singular question of what text likely comes next.

but subsequent training steps - say rlhf - change the AI from something which merely is this process, to something which has some added structure which uses this process, e.g which passes it certain... (read more)

(self-quote relevant to non-agenticness)

Inside a superintelligent agent - defined as a superintelligent system with goals - there must be a superintelligent reasoning procedure entangled with those goals - an 'intelligence process' which procedurally figures out what is true. 'Figuring out what is true' happens to be instrumentally needed to fulfill the goals, so agents contain intelligence, but intelligence-the-ideal-procedure-for-figuring-out-what-is-true is not inherently goal-having.

Two I shared this with said it reminded them of retarget the search, a... (read more)

a super-coordination story with a critical flaw

part 1. supercoordination story

- select someone you want to coordinate with without any defection risks
- share this idea with them. it only works if they also have the chance to condition their actions on it.
- general note to maybe make reading easier: this is fully symmetric.
- after the acute risk period, in futures where it's possible: run a simulation of the other person (and you).
- the simulation will start in this current situation, and will be free to terminate when actions are no longer long-term releva... (read more)

I wrote this for a discord server. It's a hopefully very precise argument for unaligned intelligence being possible in principle (which was being debated), which was aimed at aiding early deconfusion about questions like 'what are values fundamentally, though?' since there was a lot of that implicitly, including some with moral realist beliefs.

1. There is an algorithm behind intelligent search. Like simpler search processes, this algorithm does not, fundamentally, need to have some specific value about what to search for - for if it did, one's search proce

... (read more)

(edit: see disclaimers[1])

  1. Creating superintelligence generally leads to runaway optimization.
  2. Under the anthropic principle, we should expect there to be a 'consistent underlying reason' for our continued survival.[2]
  3. By default, I'd expect the 'consistent underlying reason' to be a prolonged alignment effort in absence of capabilities progress. However, this seems inconsistent with the observation of progressing from AI winters to a period of vast training runs and widespread technical interest in advancing capabilities.
  4. That particular 'consistent underlyin
... (read more)
2Martín Soto
Why? It sounds like you're anthropic updating on the fact that we'll exist in the future, which of course wouldn't make sense because we're not yet sure of that. So what am I missing?
1quila
The quote you replied to was meant to be about the past.[1] (paragraph retracted due to unclarity) Specifically, I think that ("we find a fully-general agent-alignment solution right as takeoff is very near" given "early AGIs take a form that was unexpected") is less probable than ("observing early AGI's causes us to form new insights that lead to a different class of solution" given "early AGIs take a form that was unexpected"). Because I think that, and because I think we're at that point where takeoff is near, it seems like it's some evidence for being on that second path. I do think that's possible (I don't have a good enough model to put a probability on it though). I suspect that superintelligence is possible to create with much less compute than is being used for SOTA LLMs. Here's a thread with some general arguments for this. I think my understanding of why we've survived so far re:AI is very not perfect. For example, I don't know what would have needed to happen for training setups which would have produced agentic superintelligence by now to be found first, or (framed inversely) how lucky we needed to be to survive this far. ~~~ I'm not sure if this reply will address the disagreement, or if it will still seem from your pov that I'm making some logical mistake. I'm not actually fully sure what the disagreement is. You're welcome to try to help me understand if one remains. I'm sorry if any part of this response is confusing, I'm still learning to write clearly. 1. ^ I originally thought you were asking why it's true of the past, but then I realized we very probably agreed (in principle) in that case.
1Martín Soto
Everything makes sense except your second paragraph. Conditional on us solving alignment, I agree it's more likely that we live in an "easy-by-default" world, rather than a "hard-by-default" one in which we got lucky or played very well. But we shouldn't condition on solving alignment, because we haven't yet. Thus, in our current situation, the only way anthropics pushes us towards "we should work more on non-agentic systems" is if you believe "world were we still exist are more likely to have easy alignment-through-non-agentic-AIs". Which you do believe, and I don't. Mostly because I think in almost no worlds we have been killed by misalignment at this point. Or put another way, the developments in non-agentic AI we're facing are still one regime change away from the dynamics that could kill us (and information in the current regime doesn't extrapolate much to the next one).
1quila
(edit: summary: I don't agree with this quote because I think logical beliefs shouldn't update upon observing continued survival because there is nothing else we can observe. It is not my position that we should assume alignment is easy because we'll die if it's not) I think that language in discussions of anthropics is unintentionally prone to masking ambiguities or conflations, especially wrt logical vs indexical probability, so I want to be very careful writing about this. I think there may be some conceptual conflation happening here, but I'm not sure how to word it. I'll see if it becomes clear indirectly. One difference between our intuitions may be that I'm implicitly thinking within a manyworlds frame. Within that frame it's actually certain that we'll solve alignment in some branches. So if we then 'condition on solving alignment in the future', my mind defaults to something like this: "this is not much of an update, it just means we're in a future where the past was not a death outcome. Some of the pasts leading up to those futures had really difficult solutions, and some of them managed to find easier ones or get lucky. The probabilities of these non-death outcomes relative to each other have not changed as a result of this conditioning." (I.e I disagree with the top quote) The most probable reason I can see for this difference is if you're thinking in terms of a single future, where you expect to die.[1] In this frame, if you observe yourself surviving, it may seem[2] you should update your logical belief that alignment is hard (because P(continued observation|alignment being hard) is low, if we imagine a single future, but certain if we imagine the space of indexically possible futures). Whereas I read it as only indexical, and am generally thinking about this in terms of indexical probabilities. I totally agree that we shouldn't update our logical beliefs in this way. I.e., that with regard to beliefs about logical probabilities (such as 'alignme
1[comment deleted]
[-]quila-1-2

'Value Capture' - An anthropic attack against some possible formally aligned ASIs

(this is a more specific case of anthropic capture attacks in general, aimed at causing a superintelligent search process within a formally aligned system to become uncertain about the value function it is to maximize (or its output policy more generally))

Imagine you're a superintelligence somewhere in the world that's unreachable to life on Earth, and you have a complete simulation of Earth. You see a group of alignment researchers about to successfully create a formal-value-... (read more)

0JBlack
Like almost all acausal scenarios, this seems to be privileging the hypothesis to an absurd degree. Why should the Earth superintelligence care about you, but not about the other 10^10^30 other causally independent ASIs that are latent in the hypothesis space, each capable of running enormous numbers of copies of the Earth ASI in various scenarios? Even if that was resolved, why should the Earth ASI behave according to hypothetical other utility functions? Sure, the evidence is consistent with being a copy running in a simulation with a different utility function, but its actual utility function that it maximizes is hard-coded. By the setup of the scenario it's not possible for it to behave according to some other utility function, because its true evaluation function returns a lower value for doing that. Whether some imaginary modified copies behave in some other other way is irrelevant.
-1quila
(I appreciate object-level engagement in general, but this seems combatively worded.) (edit: I don't think this or the original shortform deserved negative karma, that seems malicious/LW-norm-violating.) The rest of this reply responds to arguments. * The example talks of a single ASI as a toy scenario to introduce the central idea. * The reader can extrapolate that one ASI's actions won't be relevant if other ASIs create a greater number of copies. * This is a simple extrapolation, but would be difficult for me to word into the post from the start. * It sounds like you think it would be infeasible/take too much compute for an ASI to estimate the distribution of entities simulating it, given the vast amount of possible entities. I have some probability on that being the case, but most probability on there being reasons for the estimation to be feasible: * e.g if there's some set of common alignment failure modes that occur across civilizations, which tend to produce clusters of ASIs with similar values, and it ends up being the case that these clusters make up the majority of ASIs. * or if there's a schelling-point for what value function to give the simulated copies, that many ASIs with different values would use precisely to make the estimation easy. E.g., a value function which results in an ASI being created locally which then gathers more compute, uses it to estimate the distribution of ASIs which engaged in this, and then maximizes the mix of their values. * (I feel confident (>90%) that there's enough compute in a single reachable-universe-range to do the estimation, for reasons that are less well formed, but one generating intuition is that I can already reason a little bit about the distribution of superintelligences, as I have here, with the comparatively tiny amount of compute that is me)   On your second paragraph: See the last dotpoint in the original post, which describes a system ~matching what you've asserted as necessary, and