Hunch: minimalism is correct
8AnthonyC
2Adam Zerner
2AnthonyC
2Adam Zerner
2AnthonyC
4kave
4Gordon Seidoh Worley
4Adam Zerner
2Gordon Seidoh Worley
4Viliam
2Rafael Harth
1[anonymous]
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From personal experience: I grew up in a much bigger house than I owned as an adult, and definitely had a tendency to hold onto stuff I didn't need. Then in 2021 I sold my house and for the past 4 years my wife and I have been living full-time in a 28' trailer, working from the road and traveling the country. So learning a minimalist mindset has been an essential life skill. I'm trying to separate the minimalism component from the travel component in what's below, but admittedly it's a big part of the value for me.
There are tradeoffs. I pay more for a bunch of things by buying smaller retail packages instead of bulk, and waiting until I need something instead of buying when it goes on sale. Overall this is more than offset by not buying things I don't need, but when I have a house again I will definitely have some (consumable) things I buy in larger quantities than I strictly need at once, as long as they're durable and can be kept out of the way. I have to think more about running out of certain things, and whether that matters, and time my shopping trips accordingly. But I got used to that once it really sank in that unless I'm really in the middle of nowhere, I can get almost anything I actually need almost immediately, and almost anything else within a few days. The intrinsic resistance I used to have to getting rid of something is also gone. I can actually, really, quickly, honestly evaluate if I need something, and toss it if it's taking up space/time/resources that would be better served in some other use.
On another note, not having to maintain stuff and living space freed up a significant amount of time and mental overhead. I wasn't constantly trying to keep track of what I had and what was where and what needing me to do something to keep it in good condition and so on. I was more able to really think about which things in my life were valuable or not, because they were all right there and not hidden away (literally and figuratively). And I mean valuable to me, specifically, not things-society-tells-us-are-valuable-or-necessary. I was able to focus on experiences and self-improvement more. I was able to choose where to spend money, and change those choices as needed, instead of that being locked-in long-term. The mental overhead was a big deal for me. For example, I'd wanted to get a new job for quite a few years, but felt weighed down like I had no time or energy to look; once we hit the road I was able to actually spend time and thought on this, and got a new job within a few months.
Now, though, we've recently bought land and are starting the process of getting a house built. There are absolutely specific things we miss having and will be getting again, and there are things we're going to want more of than we have now. But compared to before, a lot of the space in our home is probably going to stay open and airy. I doubt I'll own much more clothing than I have now, for example. I will say that there is a lot of value in having dedicated spaces for specific activities that you actually do often, rather than having to constantly convert a multi-use space into different modes. That adds up in the same way having a commute adds up, vs working from home.
Edit to add:
Having less stuff also means being able to spend more per item where it matters to you, in order to get higher quality.
For clothing specifically: We don't usually think this way, but the lifespan of clothing is finite, and (approximately) measured in number of washes. If your average shirt lasts 30 wear-days (I'm making up a number, it might be twice that for all I know and it definitely varies a lot) and you keep stuff until it wears out, then you will end up needing about twelve new ones a year, whether that's out of a closet of 14 or a closet of 40. But, the person with 14 isn't (hopefully) wasting money buying clothes, never wearing them, and then throwing them out (or donating them) in near-new condition. How much you actually get to wear is still one outfit at a time for everyone, and the minimalist gets (or has, depending on your POV) to buy new stuff that they'll actually wear at about the same rate.
That's all cool to hear!
But I got used to that once it really sank in that unless I'm really in the middle of nowhere, I can get almost anything I actually need almost immediately, and almost anything else within a few days.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. A similar thought has occurred to me. I used to drive from Vegas to Mexico with my girlfriend for dental work. I remember passing through areas that felt incredibly remote, but even the most remote areas were never really more than an hour or so away from a Walmart or something. I think it'd take some actual effort to find a place that is truly remote.
The mental overhead was a big deal for me. For example, I'd wanted to get a new job for quite a few years, but felt weighed down like I had no time or energy to look; once we hit the road I was able to actually spend time and thought on this, and got a new job within a few months.
I'm glad to hear it! I'm in the same ballpark. I wonder how common this sort of thing is.
I feel like it's something that many people should at least experiment with though. I suspect that a lot of people would predict the mental overhead to be a big deal but after trying they'd find that it was actually a big deal. I also suspect that this mental overhead affects people in ways that are hard to notice. Like maybe it leads to procrastination or something.
I will say that there is a lot of value in having dedicated spaces for specific activities that you actually do often, rather than having to constantly convert a multi-use space into different modes. That adds up in the same way having a commute adds up, vs working from home.
I'm not sure what I think about the value of spaciousness. I'd love to hear about any specific examples you have in mind.
Having less stuff also means being able to spend more per item where it matters to you, in order to get higher quality.
Ah yeah, that's a good point!
I'm not sure what I think about the value of spaciousness. I'd love to hear about any specific examples you have in mind.
Sure. To be clear: It doesn't apply to everything. And individual rooms don't/wouldn't need to be huge. I've looked at house floor plans with walk-in closets in the master bedroom that are larger than my whole trailer, or big empty bathrooms and entryways, and find them to be just silly for any purpose I could imagine wanting. But for some personal examples where I think this applies:
My wife is a therapeutic musician who makes online courses. Whenever she wants to record (especially video) she needs to take about 20-30 minutes to move furniture and set up the main living area as her studio, and undo it all at the end. And she can't leave it like that from day to day, since doing so blocks access to the kitchen and removes all but one chair we can sit in. It costs time each day, and costs the motivation to do it anywhere near as often as is optimal. And if you set up, but then there happens to be noise from neighbors or landscapers at a particular time, well, tough luck, all that time was wasted. But whenever we find ourselves at an AirBnB, and she can set up once and leave it for a week, and record whenever it happens to be quiet, she can get as much done as in the previous several months combined.
I really only need a laptop and lap desk for my job, but I know from experience that I would be marginally more productive (maybe 10%, or so) with a full-size monitor, or ideally two (I do use a regular mouse regardless, btw). Could I travel with monitors and set them up? Sure, but it would fill the multi-purpose workstation/dining table combo so I'd have to set it up and take it down each day and find a place to store them safely where they're not too in the way, which in practice would mean all the floor space on my side of the bed, which would make it harder to get to my clothes in the morning and evening. If I had a desk that was permanently set up, with monitors and a docking station, then I would obviously use that, and could still sit with just the laptop when I wanted to.
I can cook quite well in a small kitchen, with small appliances, and it's not too onerous to prep stuff on a flexible cutting board that I wash immediately or tuck on the bottom of the sink. But it sets an upper bound on my ability to lay out everything I need in a logical way, and increases the mental load to have to keep track of what's where and what I can do at what points. So I cook less often, and less variety of dishes.
Our rear wall opens to serve as a patio, which is great, but it takes us about 5-10 minutes to open it up, secure the railing, set up the sunshade or clamshell tent, and get out the patio chairs and table. We don't have patio doors, only a screen, so we can't leave it down at night or if we go out (they do make patio doors for RVs, but they wouldn't work in our setup). Mentally that's enough to make us only want to do it once a month or so. When we happen to get a site with a well-shaded high-quality picnic table or covered patio, we do sit there more often.
That all makes sense. Work productivity and trivial inconveniences are important. At first I was thinking that 20-30 minutes to set up a work area is comparable to a commute and not too big a deal, but then I remembered that a) commutes suck and b) the raw number of minutes is only part of the story.
Kitchen space is the most important thing for me in terms of wanting space. I get a little overwhelmed when I'm cooking and things are tight. But this can be mitigated by focusing on a) meals that don't require as much space and b) when I do want to cook a meal that requires more space, just take my time and go slow.
A few years out of college I ended up living in a 200 square foot micro-apartment. And my girlfriend lived with me there part-time. There were definitely things about it that aren't ideal, but ultimately it was pretty tolerable.
I think a big reason why I don't mind smaller spaces too much is because I don't mind utilizing space outside of my apartment: communal areas in the apartment complex, coffee shops, libraries, parks. Not everyone's like that though. Some people kinda need the privacy and comfort of home to relax.
Agreed, and for sure it has been working well for 4 years. I just don't think it's what I want for the next 40. It's not intolerable. The benefits have been great, especially with the travel involved in my case. And good communal spaces help. But that's a different question from whether the costs of having more space outweigh the benefits, in general or for particular people.
I have a hunch that minimalism is "wrong", and only looks "correct" (to borrow your sense of "correct" here) if the alternative is keeping excess stuff. What I think is actually "correct" is have just enough, not too much and not too little. But when the default problem is having too much stuff, minimalism starts to seem like the solution mostly because it's directionally correct and may get to you to the ideal enoughness set point.
But on its face, I think minimalism is not what would make most people happy because they derive some pleasure from stuff, including stuff they only use rarely. For example, I'm very glad to have a space in our garage that's full of boxed up holiday decorations, because throughout the year we rotate through what's in those boxes to put them up. But naively, at least, minimalism might say to get rid of that stuff because it's been months since we used what's in the boxes. I feel the same way about clothes and other things that get used rarely, but I'm glad to have them when the occasion calls for them.
But on its face, I think minimalism is not what would make most people happy because they derive some pleasure from stuff, including stuff they only use rarely.
I don't disagree with that people derive some pleasure from stuff, including stuff they use only rarely. Part of my position is that the magnitude of pleasure here is relatively low. I'm not sure whether or not you agree with that. It's also hard to operationalize.
But the more central part of my position is that since housing is expensive, you have to pay a relatively high price to have enough room for this sort of stuff, and the amount of pleasure it generates is a good amount lower than this price. Do you disagree with that?
Kind of. Housing is not priced linearly, at least not in places like the Bay Area and Manhattan, with the cost per square foot declining as the size of the house increases. This means that the marginal cost of more housing to store more stuff can be worth it. For example, my house in SF costs me only about $1000 more per month in rent than apartments that are a third the size because there's such high demand for any housing at all in the city that it raises the price floor quite high. For the relatively low price of $12k/year I get the space to host parties, have parking, enjoy beautiful views, and store extra stuff that I'm glad to have when I need it.
That said, I'm not a fan of having too much stuff. I just want to have enough stuff that I don't find myself missing out on things I would have liked to be able to do.
1There's this technique that people in minimalism circles talk about where you pack up all your stuff as if you were moving.
Yes, that seems like a reasonable way to approach this. Pack up your stuff, even write the date on the box.
It is possible to err in both directions. Probably it is more natural to collect more things than you need (because once you have those extra things, it requires a conscious decision to get rid of them). But I have also seen people underestimate the fact they they will need more of something (e.g. plates, forks) if someone visits them. Even if you know you will never have visitors, it is good to have an extra plate or two, because sometimes they break.
Minimalism certainly makes me happier. Not really because of any material cost/benefit analysis though, but just because it feels nicer to have a purpose for owning stuff. I like it that I can point at most things I own and be like "yeah I have that because xyz"
Key point: minimalism the design aesthetic, and minimalism meaning actually having less stuff, are opposites. Minimalist design means you highlight the one function it does very pleasingly. Minimalist stuffhaving means you have fairly cheap-looking multipurpose tools.
Ironically the most important domain this applies is storage containers. Your path to decluttering succeeds if your first instinct is to grab random boxes/cartons/bags to start storing stuff, and it fails if you start by buying new containers.
Marie Kondo is a very good book, you should read it.
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