LESSWRONG
LW

Perry Cai's Shortform

by Perry Cai
5th Feb 2025
1 min read
11

1

This is a special post for quick takes by Perry Cai. Only they can create top-level comments. Comments here also appear on the Quick Takes page and All Posts page.
Perry Cai's Shortform
1Perry Cai
7Ape in the coat
1Perry Cai
2Ape in the coat
1Perry Cai
2Ape in the coat
1Perry Cai
2Richard_Kennaway
1Perry Cai
2JBlack
1Davey Morse
11 comments, sorted by
top scoring
Click to highlight new comments since: Today at 10:10 AM
[-]Perry Cai7mo10

Anyone have a logical solution to exactly why we should act altruistically? I know it makes sense evolutionarily through game theory and statistics, but human decision making is still controlled by emotions, and it's still most advantageous for an individual actor to follow their own self-interest to a degree in a social community. I know how altruistic actors develop, but not why unconstrained intelligences should choose to do so. 

Reply
[-]Ape in the coat7mo70

Logic simply preserves truth. You can arrive to a valid conclusion that one should act altruistically if you start from some specific premises, and can't if you start from some other presimes.

What are the premises you start from?

Reply
[-]Perry Cai7mo1-1

I guess most arguments would need to start from Cogito, ergo sum to make much sense, and you couldn't do much of anything without accepting that our observations of the world exist. But is there a set of premises that is generally accepted that can determine what one's actions should be without stating them outright?

Reply
[-]Ape in the coat7mo20

What is this "should" thingy you are talking about? Do you by chance have some definition of "shouldness" or are you open to suggestions?

Reply
[-]Perry Cai7mo10

Yes, I'm open to any framework that describes altruism in a way other than an evolutionary process.

Reply
[-]Ape in the coat7mo20

I don't think you got the question.

You see, if we define "shouldness" as optimization of human values. Then it does indeed logically follows that people should act altruistically:

People should do what they should

Should = Optimization of human values

People should do what optimizes human values

Altruism ∈ Human Values

People should do altruism

Is it what you were looking for?

Reply
[-]Perry Cai6mo10

By "should" I mean any currently accepted model that you can derive alturism from, of which the only one I know of so far is evolution or stems from evolution.

Reply
[-]Richard_Kennaway6mo*20

Anyone have a logical solution to exactly why we should act altruistically?

"Logical ... should" sounds like a type error, setting things up for a contradiction. While there are adherents of moral naturalism, I doubt there are many moral naturalists around here. Even given moral naturalism, I believe it would still be true that any amount of intelligence can coexist with any goals. So no, there is no reason why unconstrained intelligences should be altruistic, or even be the sort of thing that "altruism" could meaningfully be asserted or denied of them.

I know it makes sense evolutionarily through game theory and statistics, but human decision making is still controlled by emotions

...which came about through evolution, so what work is the "but" doing? The urge to do good for others is what the game theory feels like from inside.

it's still most advantageous for an individual actor to follow their own self-interest to a degree in a social community.

Each knows their own needs and desires better than anyone else, so it's primarily up to each person to ensure their own are fulfilled. Ensuring this often involves working with others. We do things for each other that we may individually prosper.

So, what type of altruism are you asking about? I expect Peter Singer would dismiss reciprocal altruism as weak sauce, a pale and perverted imitation of what he preaches. The EA variety inspired by Singer? Utilitarianism that values all equally to oneself, and feels another's pain as intensely as one's own? Saintliness that values everyone else above oneself who am nothing? There's a long spectrum there, and people inhabiting all parts of it.

Reply
[-]Perry Cai6mo10

My confusion about this subject is that without moral naturalism, it seems moral philosophy can be derived from a psychological or sociological basis, which seems to me a much better model for producing results than philosophical arguments.

Reply
[-]JBlack7mo20

No, nobody has a logical solution to that (though there have been many claimed solutions). It is almost certainly not true.

Reply
[-]Davey Morse6mo10

self-interest is often aligned with expanding your self boundaries to include others

Reply
Moderation Log
More from Perry Cai
View more
Curated and popular this week
11Comments