# Ω 44

Crossposted from the AI Alignment Forum. May contain more technical jargon than usual.

[Cross-posted on Windows on Theory blog; See also Boaz’s posts on longtermism and AGI via scaling as well as other “philosophizing” posts.]

[Disclaimer: Predictions are very hard, especially about the future. In fact, this is one of the points of this essay. Hence, while for concreteness, we phrase our claims as if we are confident about them, these are not mathematically proven facts. However we do believe that the claims below are more likely to be true than false, and, even more confidently, believe some of the ideas herein are underrated in current discussions around risks from future AI systems.]

[To the LessWrong audience: we realize this piece is stylistically different from many posts here, and is not aimed solely at regular readers, for which various terms and claims below might be very familiar. Our original impetus to write this piece was a suggestion from the organizers of the Future Fund AI worldview competition; while we are not holding our breath for any reward, we thought it would be a good idea to engage with the LessWrong audience in this discussion. This post could be described as somewhere between an ordinary collaboration and an adversarial one—the views expressed are a closer fit for Boaz's current views than Ben's.]

In the past, the word “computer” was used to denote a person that performs calculations. Such people were highly skilled and were crucial to scientific enterprises. As described in the book “Hidden Figures”, until the 1960s, NASA still used human computers for the space mission. However, these days a 10 calculator can instantly perform calculations beyond the capabilities of every human on earth. On a high level, the situation in Chess and other games is similar. Humans used to be the reigning champions in Chess and Go, but have now been surpassed by computers. Yet, while the success of computers in performing calculations has not engendered fears of them “taking over the world,” the growing powers of AI systems have more people increasingly worried about their long-term implications. Some reasons why the success of AI systems such as AlphaZero in Go and Chess is more concerning than the success of calculation programs include 1. Unlike when working with numerical computation programs, it seems that in Chess and Go humans are entirely “unnecessary.” There is no need to have a “human in the loop”. Computer systems are so powerful that no meaningful competition is possible between even the best human players and software running on commodity laptops.[1] 2. Unlike the numerical algorithms used for calculations, we do not understand the inner workings of AI chess systems, especially ones trained without any hand-designed knowledge. These systems are to a large extent “black boxes,” which even their creators do not fully understand and hence cannot fully predict or control. 3. Moreover, AlphaZero was trained using a paradigm known as reinforcement learning or RL (see also this book). At a high level, RL can be described as training an agent to learn a strategy (i.e., a rule to decide on a move or action based on the history of all prior ones) in order to maximize a long-term reward (e.g., “win the game”). The result is a system that is capable of executing actions that may seem wrong in the short term (e.g., sacrificing a queen) but will help achieve the long-term goal. While RL so far has had very limited success outside specific realms such as games or low-complexity settings, the success of (non-RL) deep learning systems such as GPT-3 or Dall-E in open-ended text or image generation has raised fears of future AI systems that could both act in the real world, interacting with humans, physical, and digital systems, and do so in the pursuit of long term goals that may not be “aligned” with the interests of humanity. The fear is that such systems could become so powerful that they could end up destroying much or all of humanity. We refer to the above scenario as the loss of control scenario. It is distinct from other potential risks of Artificial Intelligence, including the risks of AI being used by humans to develop more lethal weapons, better ways for repressive regimes to surveil their population or more effective ways of spreading misinformation. In this essay, we claim that the “loss of control” scenario rests on a few key assumptions that are not justified by our current understanding of artificial intelligence research. (This doesn’t mean the assumptions are necessarily wrong—just that we don’t believe the preponderance of the evidence supports them.) To be clear, we are not “AI skeptics” by any means. We fully believe that over the next few decades, AI will continue to make breakthrough advances, and AI systems will surpass current human performance in many creative and technical fields, including, but not limited to, software engineering, hacking, marketing, visual design, (at least some components of) scientific discovery, and more. We are also not “techno-optimists.” The world already faces risks, and even existential ones, from the actions of humans. People who have had control over nuclear weapons over the course of history include Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong-un, Vladimir Putin, and many others whose moral judgment is suspect, to say the least. Nuclear weapons are not the only way humans can and have caused suffering on a mass scale; whether it is biological, chemical, or even so-called “conventional” weapons, climate change, exploitation of resources and people, or others, humans have a long history of pain and destruction. Like any new technology, AI will be (and in fact already has been) used by humans for warfare, manipulations, and other illicit goals. These risks are real and should be studied, but are not the focus of this essay. ## Our argument: an executive summary. The loss of control scenario is typically described as a “battle” between AIs and humans, in which AIs would eventually win due to their superior abilities. However, unlike in Chess games, humans can and will use all the tools at their disposal, including many tools (e.g., code-completion engines, optimizers for protein folding, etc..) that are currently classified as “Artificial Intelligence”. So to understand the balance of power, we need to distinguish between systems or agents that have only short-term goals, versus systems that plan their own long-term strategies The distinction above applies not just to artificial systems but also to human occupations as well. As an example, software developers, architects, engineers, or artists have short-term goals, in the sense that they provide some particular product (piece of software, design for a bridge, artwork, scientific paper) that can stand and be evaluated on its own merits. In contrast, leaders of companies and countries set long-term goals in the sense that they need to come up with a strategy that will yield benefits in the long run and cannot be assessed with confidence until it is implemented.[2] We already have at least partial “short-term AI”, even if not at the level of replacing e.g., human software engineers. The existence of successful “long-term AI” that can come up with strategies which are enacted over a scale of, say, years is still an open question, but for the sake of this essay we accept that assumption. We believe that when evaluating the loss-of-control scenario, the relevant competition is not between humans and AI systems, but rather between humans aided with short-term AI systems and long-term AI systems (themselves possibly aided with short-term components). One thought experiment we have in mind is a competition between two firms: one with a human CEO, but with AI engineers and advisors, and the other a fully AI firm. While it might seem “obvious” that eventually AI would be far superior to humans in all endeavors, including being a CEO, we argue that this is not so obviously the case. We agree that future AIs could possess superior information processing and cognitive skills - a.k.a. “intelligence” - compared to humans. But the evidence so far suggests the advantages of these skills would be much more significant in some fields than in others. We believe that this is uncontroversial - for example, it’s not far-fetched to claim that AI would make much better chess players than kindergarten teachers. Specifically, there are “diminishing returns” for superior information-processing capabilities in the context of setting longer-term goals or strategies. The long time horizon and the relevance of interactions among high numbers of agents (who are themselves often difficult to predict) make real-life large-scale systems “chaotic” in the sense that even with superior analytic abilities, they are still unpredictable (see Figure 1). As a consequence, we believe the main fields where AI systems will yield advantages will be in short-term domains. An AI engineer will be much more useful than an AI CEO (see also Table 2). We do not claim that it would be impossible to build an AI system that can conceive and execute long-term plans; only that this would not be where AI would have a “competitive advantage”. Short-term goals that can be evaluated and graded also mesh much better with the current paradigm of training AI systems on vast amounts of data. We believe it will be possible to construct very useful AIs with only short-term goals, and in fact that the vast majority of AI’s power will come from such short-term systems. Even if a long-term AI system is built, it will likely not have a significant advantage over humans assisted with short-term AIs. There can be many risks even from short-term AI systems, but such machines cannot by design have any long-term goals, including the goal of taking over the world and killing all humans.[3] Perspective. Our analysis also has a lesson for AI safety research. Traditionally, approaches to mitigate the behavior of bad actors include • Prevention: We prevent break-ins by putting locks on our doors, we prevent hacks by securing our systems, etc… • Deterrence: Another way we prevent bad actions is by ensuring that the negative consequences for these actions will outweigh benefits. This is one basis for the penal system, as well as the “mutually assured destruction” paradigm that has kept Russia and US from a nuclear war. • Alignment: We try to educate children and adults and socialize them to our values, so they are not motivated to pursue the actions we consider as bad. Much of AI safety research (wrt to the “loss of control” scenario) has been focused on the third approach, with the expectation that these systems may be so powerful that prevention and deterrence will be impossible. However, it is unclear to us that this will be the case. For example, it may well be that humans, aided by short-term AI systems, could vastly expand the scope of formally verified secure systems, and so prevent hacking attacks against sensitive resources. A huge advantage of research on prevention is that it is highly relevant not just to protect against hypothetical future bad AI actors, but also against current malicious humans. Such research might greatly benefit from advances in AI code-completion engines and other tools, hence belying the notion that there is a “zero-sum game” between “AI safety” and “AI capabilities” research. Furthermore, one advantage of studying AI systems, as opposed to other organisms, is that we can try to extract useful modules and representations for them. (Indeed, this is already done in “transfer learning.”) Hence, it may be possible to extract useful and beneficial “short-term AI” even from long-term systems. Such restricted systems would still give most of the utility, but with less risk. Once again, increasing the capabilities of short-term AI systems will empower humans that are assisted by such systems. Figure 1: Cartoon of the feasibility of predicting future events and the level of ability (i.e., cognitive skill / compute / data) required to do so (approximately) optimally. As the horizon grows, events have more inherent uncertainty and also require more skills/data to predict. However, many realistic systems are chaotic and become unpredictable at some finite horizon.[4] At that point, even sophisticated agents cannot predict better than baseline heuristics, which require only a bounded level of skill. Table 2: Cognitive scores for Swedish men in various “elite” occupations, based on Swedish army entrance examinations, taken from Dal Bó et al (Table II). Emphases ours: bold text corresponds to jobs that (in our view) require longer horizon decision-making across time or number of people. Note that despite being apparently less cognitively demanding, the “bold” professions are higher paying. ## A digression: what is intelligence Merriam-Webster defines intelligence as “the skilled use of reason”, “the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations”, or “to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly.” Intelligence is similar to computation, in the sense that its main components are the ability to take in observations (aka “inputs”) and use reasoning (aka “algorithms”) to decide on actions (aka “outputs”). In fact, in the currently dominant paradigm of AI, performance is primarily determined by the amount of computation performed during learning, and AI systems consist of enormous homogeneous circuits executing a series of simple operations on (a large quantity of) inputs and learned knowledge. Bostrom (Chapter 3) defines three forms of “superintelligence”: “speed superintelligence”, “collective superintelligence” and “quality superintelligence”. In the language of computing, speed super-intelligence corresponds to clock speed of processors, while collective super-intelligence corresponds to massive parallelism. “Quality superintelligence” is not well defined, but is presumably some type of emergent phenomenon from passing some thresholds of speed and parallelism. A fundamental phenomenon in computing is universality: there are many restricted computational models (finite state automata, context-free grammars, simply-typed lambda calculus), but once a computational model passes a certain threshold or phase transition, it becomes universal (a.k.a. “Turing complete”), and all universal models are equivalent to one another in computational power. For example, in a cellular automata, even though each cell is very restricted (can only store a constant amount of memory and process a finite rule based only on the state of its immediate neighbors), given enough cells we can simulate any arbitrarily complex machine.[5] Once a system passes the universality transition, it is not bottlenecked any more by the complexity of an individual unit, but rather by the resources in the system as a whole. In the animal kingdom, we seem to have undergone a similar phase transition, whereby humans are qualitatively more intelligent than any other animal or creature. It also seems to be the case that with the invention of language, the printing press, and the Internet, we (like cellular automata) are able to combine large numbers of humans to achieve feats of collective intelligence that are beyond any one individual. In particular, the fruits of the scientific revolution of the 1500-1600s increased the scale of GDP by 10,000-fold (to the extent such comparisons are meaningful) and the distance we can measure in space a trillion-fold, all with the same brains used by our hunter-gatherer ancestors (or maybe somewhat smaller ones). Arguably, the fact humans are far better than chimpanzees at culturally transmitting knowledge is more significant than the gap in intelligence between individuals of the two species. Ever since the development of language, the intelligence of an individual human has not been a bottleneck for the achievements of humanity. The brilliance of individuals like Newton may have been crucial for speeding up the Scientific Revolution, but there have been brilliant individuals for millennia. The crucial difference between Newton and Archimedes is not that Newton was smarter, but rather that he lived at a later time and thus was able to stand on the shoulders of more giants. As another example, a collection of humans, aided by Internet-connected computers, can do much better at pretty much any intelligence feat (including but not limited to IQ exams) than any single human. Figure 3: Measures of human progress both in terms of GDP and the scale of objects we can measure. Taken from this blog post, with the first figure from Our World in Data, and data for second figure from Terence Tao’s cosmic ladder presentation. The “loss of control” scenario posits a second phase transition, whereby once AI systems become more powerful, they would not merely enable humans to achieve more objectives quicker but would themselves become as qualitatively superior to humans as humans are to other animals. We are suggesting an alternative future scenario, in which while AI would provide powerful new capabilities to human society that can (and unfortunately likely will) be used for ill as well as good, the AI systems themselves would not be the inevitable leaders of this society. Indeed, our societies and firms do not currently select our leaders to be the top individuals in intellectual capacity. The evidence is very limited that “natural talent for leadership” (to the extent it exists) is as measurable and transferable as talent for chess, math, or athletics. There are many examples of leaders who have been extremely successful in one setting but failed in another which seems rather similar.[6] Whether or not an AI system should be considered an “individual” is a matter for debate, but regardless, it is not at all clear that such individuals would be the leaders of the society, rather than being employed in domains such as software development and scientific discovery, where their superior information-processing capabilities would provide the most competitive advantage. Bostrom (Table 8 in Chapter 6) lists several potential “cognitive superpowers” that an AI system might develop. One category is “hacking”“technology research”, and “economic productivity”. These are skills that correspond to jobs that are not in the domain of CEOs or leaders, but rather engineers, middle managers, scientists, etc. AI systems may well be able to assist or even replace such individuals, but this does not mean such systems will be the leaders of companies or countries. Another task Bostrom considers is “intelligence amplification” which is the ability to improve AI systems. Again, it is quite possible that AI systems would help in improving other or the same AI systems, but this on its own does not imply that they would become infinitely powerful. Specifically, if indeed stronger AI would arrive through “scaling” of massive computational resources, then there would be some hard limits on the ability to improve AI’s power solely through software updates. It is not at all clear that in terms of energy efficiency, AI systems would be much better (if at all) than humans. If the gains from scaling are far more important than gains from improved algorithms/architectures, then intelligence amplification might be primarily a function of resource acquisition rather than algorithmic research. A third task listed is “social manipulation.” Here we must admit we are skeptical. Anyone who has ever tried to convince a dog to part with a bone or a child with a toy could attest to the diminishing returns that an intelligence advantage has in such a situation. Finally, Boston lists the cognitive superpower of “strategizing”, which is the ability to make long-term plans to achieve distant goals. This is the point we focus on in this essay. In short, our belief is that the chaotic nature of the real world implies diminishing returns to “three-dimensional chess” strategies that are beyond the comprehension of mere humans. Hence we do not believe that this would be a domain where AI systems have a strong competitive advantage. ## A thought experiment: “The AI CEO vs. the AI advisor” Before we delve into the technical(-ish) analysis, let us consider a thought experiment. At its heart, our argument is that the power of AI systems, present and future, will not come from the ability to make long-term strategic plans (“three-dimensional chess”) but rather from the ability to produce pieces of work that can be evaluated on their own terms. In short, we believe that even if a long-term malicious AI system is constructed, it will not have an insurmountable advantage over humans that are assisted with short-term AIs. To examine this, let us imagine two possible scenarios for how future AI could assist humans in making strategic decisions, such as running a company: • In the “AI Advisor” model, leaders could use AI to come up with simulations of the impact of decisions and possibly make some suggestions. However, humans would ultimately make the decision and evaluate their results. Key for this is that an AI would be able not just to produce a recommendation for a decision but explain how this decision would lead to improvement in some interpretable metric (e.g., revenue, market share, etc..). For example, a decision might be “let’s sell this product at a loss so we can increase our market share.” • In the “AI CEO” model, AIs could use their superior powers to choose an optimal long-term strategy as opposed to an individual decision. The strategy would not be “greedy”, in the sense of a sequence of steps each making progress on measurable goals, and it would not have any compact analysis of why it is good. Also, the only way to accrue the benefits of the strategy would be to continue pursuing it in the long term. Hence users would have to trust the AI and follow its recommendations blindly. For example, think of the case in Chess where an AI figures out that the best move is to sacrifice the queen because for any one of the possible opponent’s moves, there is a countermove, and so on and so forth. The only explanation for why this strategy is a good one may consist of an exponentially big game tree up to a certain depth. Our sense is that there is strong evidence that AI would be incredibly useful for making low-level decisions (i.e., optimizing objectives under constraints) once the high-level strategy was set. Indeed, by far the most exciting advances for deep learning have not been through reinforcement learning, but rather through techniques such as supervised and unsupervised learning. (With the major exception being games like Chess and Go, though even there, given the success of non-RL engines such as Stockfish versions 12 and later, it is not clear RL is needed.) There is less evidence that “AI advisors” would be useful for setting high-level strategies, but it is certainly plausible. In particular, the power of prompt-based generative models suggests that AI could be useful for generating realistic simulations that can help better convey the impact of various decisions and events. So, while “AI engineers” might be more useful than “AI advisors”, the latter might well have their role as well. In contrast, we believe that there is little to no evidence for the benefits of “three-dimensional chess” strategies of the type required for the “AI CEO” scenario. The real world (unlike the game of chess or even poker), involves a significant amount of unpredictability and chaos, which makes highly elaborate strategies depending on complex branching trees of moves and counter-moves far less useful. We also find it unlikely that savvy corporate boards would place blind trust in an AI CEO given that (as mentioned above) evaluation of even human CEOs tends to be controversial. There is an alternative viewpoint, which is that an AI CEO would basically be equivalent to a human CEO but with superhuman “intuition” or “gut feeling” that they cannot explain but somehow leads to decisions that yield enormous benefits in the long term. While this viewpoint cannot be ruled out, there is no evidence in current deep learning successes to support it. Moreover, often great CEO’s “gut feelings” are less about particular decisions, but more about the relative importance of particular metrics (e.g., prioritizing market share or user experience over short-term profits). In any case, even if one does not agree with our judgment of the relative likelihoods of the above scenarios, we hope that this essay will help sharpen the questions that need to be studied, as well as what lessons can we draw about them from the progress so far of AI systems. # Technical Analysis ## 1. Key hypotheses behind the “Loss of Control” Scenario For the sake of the discussion below, let’s assume that at some future time there exists an artificial intelligence system that in a unified way achieves performance far superior to that achieved by all humans today across many fields. This is a necessary assumption for the “loss of control” scenario and an assumption we accept in this essay. For the sake of simplicity, below we refer to such AI systems as “powerful”. We will also assume that powerful AI will be constructed following the general paradigm that has been so successful in the last decade of machine learning. Specifically, the system will be obtained by going through a large amount of data and computational steps to find some instantiation (a.k.a. “parameters” or “weights”) of it that optimizes some chosen objective. Depending on the choice of the objective, this paradigm includes supervised learning (“classify this image”), unsupervised learning (“predict the next token”), reinforcement learning (“win the game”), and more. For the loss of control scenario to occur, the following two hypotheses must be true: Loss-of-Control Hypothesis 1: There will exist a powerful AI that has long-term goals. For an AI to have misaligned long-term goals, it needs to have some long-term goals in the first place. There is a question of how to define the “goals” of an AI system or even a human for that matter. In this essay, we say that an agent has a goal X if, looking retrospectively at the history of the agent’s actions, the most parsimonious explanation for its actions was that it was attempting to achieve X, subject to other constraints or objectives. For example, while chess experts often find it hard to understand why an engine such as AlphaZero makes a specific move, by the end of the game, they often understand the reasoning retrospectively and the sub-goals it was pursuing. In our parlance, a goal is “long-term” if it has a similar horizon to goals such as “take over the world and kill all the humans” —requiring planning over large scales of time, complexity, and number of agents involved.[7] In contrast, we consider goals such as “win a chess game”, “come up with a plan for a bridge that minimizes cost and can carry X traffic”, or “write a piece of software that meets the requirements Y”, as short-term goals. As another example, “come up with a mix of stocks to invest today that will maximize return next week” is a short-term goal, while “come up with a strategy for our company that will maximize our market cap over the next decade” or “come up with a strategy for our country that will maximize our GDP for the next generation” would be long-term goals. The distinction between “short-term goals AI” and “long-term goals AI” is somewhat similar to the distinction between “Tool AI” and “Agent AI” (see here). However, what we call “short-term AI” encompasses much more than “Tool AI”, and absolutely includes systems that can take actions such as driving cars, executing trading actions, and so on and so forth. We claim that for the “loss of control” scenario to materialize, we need not only Hypothesis 1 but also the following stronger hypothesis: Loss-of-Control Hypothesis 2: In several key domains, only AIs with long-term goals will be powerful. By this, we mean that AIs with long-term goals would completely dominate other AIs, in that they would be much more useful for any user (or for furthering their own goals). In particular, a country, company or organization that restricts itself to only using AIs with short term goals would be at a severe competitive disadvantage compared to one that uses AIs with long-term goals. Why is Hypothesis 2 necessary for the “loss of control” scenario? The reason is that this scenario requires the “misaligned long-term powerful AI” to be not merely more powerful than humanity as it exists today, but more powerful than humanity in the future. Future humans will have at their disposal the assistance of short-term AIs. ## 2. Understanding the validity of the hypotheses We now make the following claims, which we believe cast significant doubt on Hypothesis 2. ### Claim 1: There are diminishing returns to information-processing skills with longer horizons. Consider the task of predicting the consequences of a particular action in the future. In any sufficiently complex real-life scenario, the further away we attempt to predict, the more there is inherent uncertainty. For example, we can use advanced methods to predict the weather over a short time frame, but the further away the prediction, the more the system “regresses to the mean”, and the less advantage that highly complex models have over simpler ones (see Figure 4). As in meteorology, this story seems to play out similarly in macroeconomic forecasting. In general, we expect prediction success to behave like Figure 1 below—the error increases with the horizon until it plateaus to a baseline level of some simple heuristic(s). Hence while initially highly sophisticated models can beat simpler ones by a wide margin, this advantage eventually diminishes with the time horizon. Tetlock’s first commandment to potential superforecasters is to triage: “Don’t waste time either on “clocklike” questions (where simple rules of thumb can get you close to the right answer) or on impenetrable “cloud-like” questions (where even fancy statistical models can’t beat the dart-throwing chimp). Concentrate on questions in the Goldilocks zone of difficulty, where effort pays off the most.” Another way to say it is that outside of the Goldilocks zone, more effort or cognitive power does not give much returns. Figure 4: Left: Historical weather prediction accuracy data taken from a Quora answer of Mikko Strahlendorff. With technological advances, accuracy has improved significantly, but prediction accuracy sharply decays with time. Right: Figure on relative applicability of different methods from Brent Shaw. Computationally intensive numerical prediction applies in a “goldilocks zone” of days to weeks. In a variety of human endeavors, it seems that the cognitive skills needed to make decisions display a similar phenomenon. Occupations involving making decisions on the mid-range horizon, such as engineering, law, and medicine, require higher cognitive skills than those requiring long-term decisions such as CEOs or Politicians (see Table 3). One argument people make is that intelligence is not just about IQ or “booksmarts”. We do not dispute this. However, we do believe that the key potential advantage of AI systems over their human counterparts would be the ability to quickly process large amounts of information, which in humans is approximated by scores such as IQ. If that skill were key to successful leadership of companies or countries, then we would expect CEOs and leaders to come from the top 0.1% (≈ +3σ) of the distribution of such scores. The data does not bear this out.[8] ### Claim 2:It may be possible to extract powerful short-term modules from long-term systems. For Hypothesis 2 to be true, it should not be possible to take a powerful AI system with long-term goals, and extract from it modules that would be just as powerful in the key domains, but would have short-term goals. However, a nascent body of work identifies and extracts useful representations and sub-modules in deep neural networks. See, for example, this recent investigation of AlphaZero. We remark that some components of AlphaZero also inspired advances to the Stockfish Chess Engine (which is not trained using RL and involves a lot of hand-coded features), and whose latest version does in fact beat RL trained methods a-la AlphaZero. A related issue is that a consistent theme of theoretical computer science is that verification is easier than solving or proving. Hence even a complex system could explain its reasoning to a simple verifier, even if that reasoning required a significant effort to discover. There are similar examples in human affairs: e.g., even though the discovery of quantum mechanics took thousands of years and multiple scientific revolutions, we can still teach it to undergraduates today whose brains are no better than those of the ancient Greeks. ## 2.1 The impact of the deep learning paradigm on Hypothesis 2 The following claims have to do with the way we believe advanced AI systems will be constructed. We believe it is fair to assume that the paradigm of using massive data and computation to create such systems, by optimizing with respect to a certain objective, will continue to be used. Indeed, it is the success of this paradigm that has caused the rise in concerns about AI in the first place. In particular, we want to make a clear distinction between the training objective, which the system is designed to optimize, versus the goals that the system appears to follow during its deployment. ### Claim 3: There may be fundamental “scaling laws” governing the amount of performance AI systems can achieve as a function of the data and computational resources. One of the original worries in the AI risk literature is the “singularity” scenario, by which an AI system continuously improves its own performance without limit. However, this assumes that a system can improve itself by rewriting its code, without requiring additional hardware resources. If there are hard limits to what can be achieved with a certain level of resources, then such self-improvements will also hit diminishing returns. There has been significant evidence for thescaling laws” hypothesis in recent years. Figure 5: Scaling laws as computed by Hoffman et al (“Chinchilla”), see Figure A4 there. While the scaling laws are shaped differently from those of Kaplan et al, the qualitative point we make remains the same. ### Claim 4: When training with reinforcement learning, the gradient signal may decrease exponentially with the length of the horizon. Consider training a system that chooses a sequence of actions, and only gets a reward after H steps (where H is known as the “horizon”). If at any step there is some probability of an action leading to a “dead end” then the chances of getting a meaningful signal decrease exponentially with H. This is a fundamental obstacle to reinforcement learning and its applicability in open-ended situations with a very large space of actions, and a non-trivial cost for any interaction. In particular, one reason AlphaZero was successful was that in games such as chess, the space of legal moves is very constrained, and in the artificial context of a game it is possible to “reset” to a particular position: that is, one can try out different actions and see what their consequences are, and then go back to the same position. This is not possible when interacting in the real world. As a corollary of Claim 4, we claim the following: ### Claim 5: There will be powerful AI systems that are trained with short-term objective functions. By this, we mean models that are trained on a reward/loss function that only depends on a relatively short span of actions/outputs. A canonical example of this is next-token prediction. That is, even if the eventual deployment of the model will involve it making actions and decisions over a long time horizon, its training will involve optimizing short-term rewards. One might think that the model's training does not matter as much, since once it is deployed in the real world, much of what it will learn will be “on the job”. However, this is not at all clear. Suppose the average worker reads/hears about 10 pages per day, which is roughly 5K tokens, leading to roughly 2M tokens per year. In contrast, future AIs will likely be trained on a trillion tokens or so, corresponding to the amount a worker will see in 5 million years! This means that while “fine-tuning” or “in context” learning can and will occur, many of the fundamental capabilities of the systems will be fixed at the time of training (as appears to be the case for pre-trained language models that are fine-tuned with human feedback). If we assume that powerful AIs will be trained with short-term objectives, then Hypothesis 2 requires that (in several key domains) every such system will develop long-term goals. In fact, for the loss-of-control scenario to hold, every such system should develop more-or-less the same sort of goal (e.g., “take over the world”). While it is certainly possible for systems that evolve from simple rules to develop complex behavior (e.g., cellular automata), for a long-term goal to consistently emerge from mere short-term training, there should be some causal relation (or at least persistent correlation) between the long-term goal and the short-term training objective. This is because an AI system can be modeled as a maximizer of the objective on which it was trained. Thus for such a system to always pursue a particular long-term goal, that goal should be correlated with maximizing the training objective. We illustrate this with an example. Consider an AI software developer which is trained to receive a specification of a software task (say, given by some unit tests) and then come up with a module implementing it, obtaining a reward if the module passes the tests. Now suppose that in actual deployment, the system is also writing the tests that would be used to check its future outputs. We might worry that the system would develop a “long-term” goal to maximize total reward by writing one faulty test, taking the “hit” on it, and receiving a low reward, but then getting high rewards on future tasks. However, that worry would be unfounded, since the AI software developer system is trained to maximize the reward for each task separately, as opposed to maximizing the sum of rewards over time over adaptively chosen inputs of its own making. Indeed, this situation can already happen today. Next-token prediction models such as GPT-3 are trained on the reward of the perplexity over a single token, but when they are deployed, we typically generate a long sequence of tokens. Now consider a model that simply outputs an endless repetition of the word “blah”. The first few repetitions would get very low rewards, since they are completely unexpected, but once n is large enough (e.g. 10 or so), if you’ve already seen n “blah”s then the probability that the n+1 st word is also “blah” is very high. So if the model were to be maximizing total reward, it may well be worth “taking the hit” by outputting a few blahs. The key point is that GPT-3 does not do that. Since it is trained on predicting the next token for human-generated (as opposed to the text generated by itself), it will optimize for this short-term objective rather than the long-term one. We believe the example above generalizes to many other cases. An AI system trained in the current paradigm is, by default, a maximizer of the objective it was trained on, rather than an autonomous agent that pursues goals of its own design. The shorter the horizon and more well-defined the objective is, the less likely that optimizing it will lead to systems that appear to take elaborate plans to pursue far-reaching (good or bad) long-term goals. # Summary Given the above, we believe that while AI will continue to yield breakthroughs in many areas of human endeavor, we will not see a unitary nigh-omnipotent AI system that acts autonomously to pursue long-term goals. Concretely, even if a successful long-term AI system could be constructed, we believe that this is not a domain where AI will have a significant “competitive advantage” over humans. Rather, based on what we know, it is likely that AI systems will have a “sweet spot” of a not-too-long horizon in which they can provide significant benefits. For strategic and long-term decisions that are far beyond this sweet spot, the superior information processing skills of AIs will give diminishing returns. (Although AIs will likely supply valuable input and analysis to the decision makers.). An AI engineer may well dominate a human engineer (or at least one that is not aided by AI tools), but an AI CEO’s advantage will be much more muted, if any, over its human counterpart. Like our world, such a world will still involve much conflict and competition, with all sides aided by advanced technology, but without one system that dominates all others. If our analysis holds, then it also suggests different approaches to mitigating AI risk than have been considered in the “AI safety” community. Currently, the prevailing wisdom in that community is that AI systems with long-term goals are a given, and hence the approach to mitigate their risk is to “align” these goals with human values. However, perhaps more evidence should be placed on building just-as-powerful AI systems that are restricted to short time horizons. Such systems could also be used to monitor and control other AIs, whether autonomous or directed by humans. This includes monitoring and hardening systems against hacking, detecting misinformation, and more. Regardless, we believe that more research needs to be done on understanding the internal representations of deep learning systems, and what features and strategies emerge from the training process (so we are happy that the AI safety community is putting increasing resources into “interpretability” research). There is some evidence that the same internal representations emerge regardless of the choices made in training. There are also some technical research directions that would affect whether our argument is correct. For instance, we are interested in seeing work on the impacts of noise and unpredictability on the performance of reinforcement learning algorithms; in particular, on the relative performance of models of varying complexity (i.e. scaling laws for RL). Acknowledgments: Thanks to Yafah Edelman for comments on an earlier version of this essay. 1. ^ During the 90s-2000s, human-engine teams were able to consistently beat engines in “advanced chess” tournaments, but no major advanced chess tournament seems to have taken place since the release of AlphaZero and the resulting jump in engine strength, presumably because the human half of each team would be superfluous. 2. ^ The success of a bridge does hinge on its long-term stability, but stability can be tested before the bridge is built, and coming up with measures for load-bearing and other desiderata is standard practice in the engineering profession. An AI trained using such a short-term evaluation suite as its reward function may still “overoptimize” against the metric, a la Goodhart’s Law, but this can likely be addressed with regularization techniques. 3. ^ It may be the case that, for subtle reasons, if we try to train an AI with only short-term goals—e.g. by training in a series of short episodes—we could accidentally end up with an AI that has long-term goals. See Claim 6 below. But avoiding this pitfall seems like an easier problem than “aligning” the goals of an AI that is explicitly meant to care about the long-term. 4. ^ We don’t mean that they satisfy all the formal requirements to be defined as a chaotic system; though sensitivity to initial conditions is crucial. 5. ^ For a nice illustration, see Sam Trajtenberg’s construction of Minecraft in Minecraft, or this construction of Life in Life. 6. ^ Steve Jobs at Apple vs NeXT is one such example; success and failure can themselves be difficult to distinguish even with the benefit of hindsight, as in the case of Jack Welch. 7. ^ For example, such planning might require setting up many companies to earn large amounts of funds, conducting successful political campaigns in several countries, constructing laboratories without being detected, etc. Some such “take-over scenarios” are listed by Bostrom, as well as Yudkowski and Urban. 8. ^ It is hypothetically possible that companies would be better off en masse if they hired smarter CEOs than they currently do, but given the high compensation CEOs receive this doesn’t seem like a particularly plausible equilibrium. # 94 # Ω 44 New Comment 84 comments, sorted by Click to highlight new comments since: Some comments are truncated due to high volume. Change truncation settings Thanks for posting, I thought this was interesting and reasonable. Some points of agreement: • I think many of these are real considerations that the risk is lower than it might otherwise appear. • I agree with your analysis that short-term and well-scoped decisions will probably tend to be a comparative advantage of AI systems. • I think it can be productive to explicitly focus on “narrow” systems (which pursue scoped short-term goals, without necessarily having specifically limited competence) and to lean heavily on the verification-vs-generation gap. • I think these considerations together with a deliberate decision to focus on narrowness could significnatly (though not indefinitely) postpone the point when alignment difficulties could become fatal. • I think that it's unrealistic for AI systems to rapidly improve their own performance without limits. Relatedly, I sympathize with your skepticism about the story of a galaxy-brained AI outwitting humanity in a game of 3 dimensional chess. My most important disagreement is that I don’t find your objections to hypothesis 2 convincing. I think the biggest reason for this is that you are implicitly focusing on a particular mechanism that could ... Mechanism 1: Shifting horizon length in response to short-horizon tampering Suppose I want my AI to write good code (say to help me run my business). The AI understands a lot about how to write code, how servers work, and how users behave, learned entirely from quick feedback and experimentation. Let’s say it has a human-level or even subhuman understanding of the overall business and other long-term planning. (This example may seem a bit silly if you imagine a software-writing AI in isolation, but you should think of the same story playing out all across an economy in parallel as AI systems take on an extremely wide range of tasks.) How do I train that system to use its understanding to write good code? Here are two simple options: 1. Process-based: Look at the AI’s code, have the AI explain why it made these decisions, and evaluate everything on paper. 2. Outcomes-based: Run the code, monitor resource usage, see what users say in the first hour after deployment. Process-based feedback potentially handicaps my AI (even if it is only superhuman on short-horizon tasks). It’s not clear how large this advantage is, but I think our experience in practice is that “actually run your engineer’s code”... 6benedelman5d My main objection to this misalignment mechanism is that it requires people/businesses/etc. to ignore the very concern you are raising. I can imagine this happening for two reasons: 1. A small group of researchers raise alarm that this is going on, but society at large doesn't listen to them because everything seems to be going so well. This feels unlikely unless the AIs have an extremely high level of proficiency in hiding their tampering, so that the poor performance on the intended objective only comes back to bite the AI's employers once society is permanently disempowered by AI. Nigh-infallibly covering up tampering sounds like a very difficult task even for an AI that is super-human. I would expect at least some of the negative downstream effects of the tampering to slip through the cracks and for people to be very alarmed by these failures. 2. The consensus opinion is that your concern is real, but organizations still rely on outcome-based feedback in these situations anyway because if they don't they will be outcompeted in the short term by organizations that do. Maybe governments even try to restrict unsafe use of outcome-based feedback through regulation, but the regulations are ineffective. I'll need to think about this scenario further, but my initial objection is the same as my objection to reason 1: the scenario requires the actual tampering that is actually happening to be covered up so well that corporate leaders etc. think it will not hurt their bottom line (either through direct negative effects or through being caught by regulators) in expectation in the future. Which of 1 and 2 do you think is likely? And can you elaborate on why you think AIs will be so good at covering up their tampering (or why your story stands up to tampering sometimes slipping through the cracks)? Finally, if there aren't major problems resulting from the tampering until "AI systems have permanentl A small group of researchers raise alarm that this is going on, but society at large doesn't listen to them because everything seems to be going so well. Arguably this is already the situation with alignment. We have already observed empirical examples of many early alignment problems like reward hacking. One could make an argument that looks something like "well yes but this is just in a toy environment, and it's a big leap to it taking over the world", but it seems unclear when society will start listening. In analogy to the AI goalpost moving problem ("chess was never actually hard!"), in my model it seems entirely plausible that every time we observe some alignment failure it updates a few people but most people remain un-updated. I predict that for a large set of things currently claimed will cause people to take alignment seriously, most of them will either be ignored by most people once they happen, or never happen before catastrophic failure. We can also see analogous dynamics in i.e climate change, where even given decades of hard numbers and tangible physical phenomena large amounts of people (and importantly, major polluters) still reject its existence, many interventio... 2benedelman4d Thanks for laying out the case for this scenario, and for making a concrete analogy to a current world problem! I think our differing intuitions on how likely this scenario is might boil down to different intuitions about the following question: To what extent will the costs of misalignment be borne by the direct users/employers of AI? Addressing climate change is hard specifically because the costs of fossil fuel emissions are pretty much entirely borne by agents other than the emitters. If this weren't the case, then it wouldn't be a problem, for the reasons you've mentioned! I agree that if the costs of misalignment are nearly entirely externalities, then your argument is convincing. And I have a lot of uncertainty about whether this is true. My gut intuition, though, is that employing a misaligned AI is less like "emitting CO2 into the atmosphere" and more like "employing a very misaligned human employee" or "using shoddy accounting practices" or "secretly taking sketchy shortcuts on engineering projects in order to save costs"—all of which yield serious risks for the employer, and all of which real-world companies take serious steps to avoid, even when these steps are costly (with high probability, if not in expectation) in the short term. I expect society (specifically, relevant decision-makers) to start listening once the demonstrated alignment problems actually hurt people, and for businesses to act once misalignment hurts their bottom lines (again, unless you think misalignment can always be shoved under the rug and not hurt anyone's bottom line). There's lots of room for this to happen in the middle ground between toy environments and taking over the world (unless you expect lightning-fast takeoff, which I don't). 6leogao4d I expect that the key externalities will be borne by society. The main reason for this is I expect deceptive alignment to be a big deal. It will at some point be very easy to make AI appear safe, by making it pretend to be aligned, and very hard to make it actually aligned. Then, I expect something like the following to play out (this is already an optimistic rollout intended to isolate the externality aspect, not a representative one): We start observing alignment failures in models. Maybe a bunch of AIs do things analogous to shoddy accounting practices. Everyone says "yes, AI safety is Very Important". Someone notices that when you punish the AI for exhibiting bad behaviour with RLHF or something the AI stops exhibiting bad behaviour (because it's pretending to be aligned). Some people are complaining that this doesn't actually make it aligned, but they're ignored or given a token mention. A bunch of regulations are passed to enforce that everyone uses RLHF to align their models. People notice that alignment failures decrease across the board. The models don't have to somehow magically all coordinate to not accidentally reveal deception, because even in cases where models fail in dangerous ways people chalk this up to the techniques not being perfect, but they're being iterated on, etc. Heck, humans commit fraud all the time and yet it doesn't cause people to suddenly stop trusting everyone they know when a high profile fraud case is exposed. And locally there's always the incentive to just make the accounting fraud go away by applying Well Known Technique rather than really dig deep and figuring out why it's happening. Also, a lot of people will have vested interest in not having the general public think that AI might be deceptive, and so will try to discredit the idea as being fringe. Over time, AI systems control more and more of the economy. At some point they will control enough of the economy to cause catastrophic damage, and a treacherous turn happens. A 1Noosphere894d This, plus the failure mode talked about in https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/xFotXGEotcKouifky/worlds-where-iterative-design-fails [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/xFotXGEotcKouifky/worlds-where-iterative-design-fails] With RLHF, this could plausibly cause outer alignment to be easily faked by companies. 4paulfchristiano5d I expect there to be broad agreement that this kind of risk is possible. I expect a lot of legitimate uncertainty and disagreement about the magnitude of the risk. I think if this kind of tampering is risky then it almost certainly has some effect on your bottom line and causes some annoyance. I don't think AI would be so good at tampering (until it was trained to be). But I don't think that requires fixing the problem---in many domains, any problem common enough to affect your bottom line can also be quickly fixed by fine-tuning for a competent model. I think that if there is a relatively easy technical solution to the problem then there is a good chance it will be adopted. If not, I expect there to be a strong pressure to take the overfitting route, a lot of adverse selection for organizations and teams that consider this acceptable, a lot of "if we don't do this someone else will," and so on. If we need a reasonable regulatory response then I think things get a lot harder. In general I'm very sympathetic to "there is a good chance that this will work out," but it also seems like the kind of problem that is not hard to mess up, and there's enough variance in our civilization's response to challenging technical problems that there's a real chance we'd mess it up even if it was objectively a softball. ETA: The two big places I expect disagreement are about (i) the feasibility of irreversible robot uprising---how sure are we that the optimal strategy for a reward-maximizing model is to do their task well? (ii) is our training process producing models that actually refrain from tampering, or are we overfitting to our evaluations and producing models that would take an opportunity for a decisive uprising if it came up? I think that if we have our act together we can most likely measure (ii) experimentally; you could also imagine a conservative outlook or various forms of penetration testing to have a sense of (i). But I think it's just quite easy to imagine us fail 3samshap5d I take issue with the initial supposition: * How could the AI gain practical understanding of long-term planning if it's only trained on short time scales? * Writing code, how servers work, and how users behave seen like very different types of knowledge, operating with very different feedback mechanisms and learning rules. Why would you use a single, monolithic 'AI' to do all three? 4paulfchristiano5d Existing language models are trained on the next word prediction task, but they have a reasonable understanding of the long-term dynamics of the world. It seems like that understanding will continue to improve even without increasing horizon length of the training. Why would you have a single human employee do jobs that touch on all three? Although they are different types of knowledge, many tasks involve understanding of all of these (and more), and the boundaries between them are fuzzy and poorly-defined such that it is difficult to cleanly decompose work. So it seems quite plausible that ML systems will incorporate many of these kinds of knowledge. Indeed, over the last few years it seems like ML systems have been moving towards this kind of integration (e.g. large LMs have all of this knowledge mixed together in the same way it mixes together in human work). That said, I'm not sure it's relevant to my point. 1samshap4d To the second point, because humans are already general intelligences. But more seriously, I think the monolithic AI approach will ultimately be uncompetitive with modular AI for real life applications. Modular AI dramatically reduces the search space. And I would contend that prediction over complex real life systems over long-term timescales will always be data-starved. Therefore being able to reduce your search space will be a critical competitive advantage, and worth the hit from having suboptimal interfaces. Why is this relevant for alignment? Because you can train and evaluate the AI modules independently, individually they are much less intelligent and less likely to be deceptive, you can monitor their communications, etc. 1boazbarak5d I’m trying to understand this example. The way I would think of a software writing AI would be the following: after some pretraining we fine tune an AI on prompts explains the business task, the output being the software, and the objective related to various outcome measures. Then we deploy it. It is not clear that we want to keep fine tuning after deployment. It does clearly raise issues of overfitting and could lead to issues such as the “blah blah blah…” example mentioned in the post. (E.g. if you’re writing the testing code for your future code, you might want to “take the hit” and write bad tests that would be easy to pass.) Also, as we mention, the more compute and data invested during training, the less we expect there to be much “on the job training”. The AI would be like a consultant that had thousands of years of software writing experience that is coming to do a particular project. 3paulfchristiano5d That's roughly what I'm imagining. Initially you might fine-tune such a system to copy the kind of code a human would write, and then over time you could shift towards writing code that it anticipates to result in good outcome measures (whether by RL, or by explicit search/planning, or by decision-transfomer-style prediction of actions given consequences). A model trained in this way will systematically produce actions that lead to highly-rewarded outcomes. And so it will learn to manipulate the sensors used to compute reward (and indeed a sophisticated model will likely be able to generalize to manipulating sensors without seeing any examples where such manipulation actually results in a higher reward). If that happens, and if your model starts generating behavior that manipulates those sensors, then you would need to do something to fix the problem. I think it may be tempting to assign the offending behaviors a negative reward and then train on it. I'm imagining that the deployed system continues to behave the same way it did on the training distribution, so that it makes sense to continue thinking of it as choosing actions that would lead to high reward (if the episode had occurred at training time). If the system behaves very differently when deployed, then I expect that results in worse behavior and so would probably give us reason to keep fine-tuning on the new distribution. 3boazbarak4d Let me try to make things more concrete. We are a company that is deploying a service, in which our ultimate goal might be to maximize our profit a decade from now (or maybe more accurately, maximize people's perception of our future profit, which corresponds to our current stock price...). My take is that while the leaders of the company might chart a strategy towards this far-off goal, they would set concrete goals for the software developers which correspond to very clear metrics. That is, the process of implementing a new feature for the service would involve the following steps: * Proposing the feature, and claiming which metric it would improve (e.g., latency on the website, click-through rate for ads, satisfaction with service, increasing users, etc...). Crucially, these metrics are simple and human-interpretable, since the assumption is that in a chaotic world, we cannot have "3D chess" type of strategies, and rather each feature should make some clear progress in some measure. * Writing code for the feature. * Reviewing and testing the code. * Deploying it (possibly with A/B testing) * Evaluating the deployment AIs might be involved in all of these steps, but it would not be one coherent AI that does everything and whose goal is to eventually make the managers happy. Just as today we have different people doing these roles, so would different AIs be doing each one of these roles, and importantly, each one of them would have its own objective function that they are trying to maximize. So, each one of these components would be separately, and in some sense trained adversarially (e.g., testing AI would be trained to maximize bugs found, while code writing AI would be trained to minimize them). Moreover, each one of them would be trained on its own giant corpus of data. If they are jointly trained (like in GANs) then indeed care must be taken that they are not collapsing into an undesirable equilibrium, but this is something that is well 2paulfchristiano4d I agree that we will likely build lots of AI systems doing different things and checking each other's work. I'm happy to imagine each such system optimizes short-term "local" measures of performance. One reason we will split up tasks into small pieces is that it's a natural way to get work done, just as it is amongst humans. But another reason we will split it up is because we effectively don't trust any of our employees even a little bit. Perhaps the person responsible for testing the code gets credit for identifying serious problems, and so they would lie if they could get away with it (note that if we notice a problem later and train on it, then we are directly introducing problematic longer-term goals). So we need a more robust adversarial process. Some AI systems will be identifying flaws and trying to explain why they are serious, while other AI systems are trying to explain why those tests were actually misleading. And then we wonder: what are the dynamics of that kind of game? How do they change as AI systems develop kinds of expertise that humans lack (even if it's short-horizon expertise)? To me it seems quite like the situation of humans who aren't experts in software or logistics trying to oversee a bunch of seniors software engineers who are building Amazon. And the software engineers care only about looking good this very day, they don't care about whether their decisions look bad in retrospect. So they'll make proposals, and they will argue about them, and propose various short-term tests to evaluate each other's work, and various ways to do A/B tests in deployment... Would that work? I think it depends on exactly how large the gap is between the AIs and the humans. I think that evidence from our society is not particularly reassuring in cases where the gap is large. I think that when we get good results it's because we can build up trust in domain experts over long time periods, not because a layperson would have any chance at all of arbitrating 2boazbarak2d Thanks! Some quick comments (though I think at some point we are getting to deep in threads that it's hard to keep track..) 1. When saying that GAN training issues are "well understood" I meant that it is well understood that it is a problem, not that it's well understood how to solve that problem... 2. One basic issue is that I don't like to assign probabilities to such future events, and am not sure there is a meaningful way to distinguish between 75% and 90%. See my blog post on longtermism [https://windowsontheory.org/2022/05/23/why-i-am-not-a-longtermist/]. 3. The general thesis is that when making long-term strategies, we will care about improving concrete metrics rather than thinking of very complex strategies that don't make any measurable gains in the short term. So an Amazon Engineer would need to say something like "if we implement my code X then it would reduce latency by Y", which would be a fairly concrete and measurable goal and something that humans could understand even if they couldn't understand the code X itself or how it came up with it. This differs from saying something like "if we implement my code X, then our competitors would respond with X', then we could respond with X'' and so on and so forth until we dominate the market" 4. When thinking of AI systems and their incentives, we should separate training, fine tuning, and deployment. Human engineers might get bonuses for their performance on the job, which corresponds to mixing "fine tuning" and "deployments". I am not at all sure that would be a good idea for AI systems. It could lead to all kinds of over-optimization issues that would be clear for people without leading to doom. So we might want to separate the two and in some sense keep the AI disinterested about the code that it actually uses in deployment. 2gwern2d I would like to see evidence that BigGAN scaling doesn't solve it, and that Brock's explanation of mode-dropping as reflecting lack of diversity inside minibatches is fundamentally wrong, before I went around saying either "we understand it" (because few seem to ever bring up the points I just raised) or "it's unsolved" (because I see no evidence from large-scale GAN work that it's unsolved). 3boazbarak2d Can you send links? In any case I do believe that it is understood that you have to be careful in a setting where you have two models A and B, where B is a "supervisor" of the output of A, and you are trying to simultaneously teach B to come up with good metric to judge A by, and teach A to come up with outputs that optimize B's metric. There can be equilibriums where A and B jointly diverge from what we would consider "good outputs". This for example comes up in trying to tackle "over optimization" in instructGPT (there was a great talk by John Schulman in our seminar series a couple of weeks ago), where model A is GPT-3, and model B tries to capture human scores for outputs. Initially, optimizing for model B induces optimizing for human scores as well, but if you let model A optimize too much, then it optimizes for B but becomes negatively correlated with the human scores (i.e., "over optimizes"). Another way to see this issue is even for powerful agents like AlphaZero are susceptible to simple adversarial strategies that can beat them: see "Adversarial Policies Beat Professional-Level Go AIs" [https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.00241] and "Are AlphaZero-like Agents Robust to Adversarial Perturbations?" [https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.03769]. The bottom line is that I think we are very good at optimizing any explicit metricM, including when that metric is itself some learned model. But generally, if we learn some modelAs.t.A(y)≈M(y), this doesn't mean that if we letB(x)=arg maxA(y)then it would give us an approximate maximizer ofM(y)as well. MaximizingA would tend to push to the extreme parts of the input space, which would be exactly those whereAdeviates fromM. The above is not an argument against the ability to construct AGI as well, but rather an argument for establishing concrete measurable goals that our different agents try to optimize, rather than trying to learn some long-term equilibrium. So for example, in the software-writing and software-testing case, I think 4gwern2d http://arxiv.org/abs/1809.11096.pdf#subsection.4.1 [http://arxiv.org/abs/1809.11096.pdf#subsection.4.1] http://arxiv.org/abs/1809.11096.pdf#subsection.4.2 [http://arxiv.org/abs/1809.11096.pdf#subsection.4.2] http://arxiv.org/abs/1809.11096.pdf#subsection.5.2 [http://arxiv.org/abs/1809.11096.pdf#subsection.5.2] https://www.gwern.net/Faces#discriminator-ranking [https://www.gwern.net/Faces#discriminator-ranking] https://www.gwern.net/GANs [https://www.gwern.net/GANs] Sure. And the GPT-2 adversarial examples and overfitting were much worse than the GPT-3 ones. The meaning of that one is in serious doubt so I would not link it. (The other one is better and I had not seen it before, but my first question is, doesn't adding those extra stones create board states that correspond to board states that the agent would never reach following its policy, or even literally impossible board states, because those stones could not have been played while still yielding the same captured-stone count and board positions etc? The approach in 3.1 seems circular.) 1boazbarak2d Will read later the links - thanks! I confess I didn’t read the papers (though saw a talk partially based on the first one which didn’t go into enough details for me to know the issues) but also heard from people that I trust of similar issues with Chess RL engines (can be defeated with simple strategies if you are looking for adversarial ones). Generally it seems fair to say that adversarial robustness is significantly more challenging than the non adversarial case and it does not simply go away on its own with scale (though some types of attacks are automatically motivated with diversity of training data / scenarios). 2gwern2d I don't think we know that. (How big is KataGo anyway, 0.01b parameters or so?) We don't have much scaling research on adversarial robustness, what we do have suggests that adversarial robustness does increase, the isoperimetry theory claims that scaling much larger than we currently do will be sufficient (and may be necessary), and the fact that a staggeringly large adversarial-defense literature has yet to yield any defense that holds up longer than a year or two before an attack cracks it & gets added to Clever Hans suggests that the goal of adversarial defenses for small NNs may be inherently impossible (and there is a certain academic smell to adversarial research which it shares with other areas that either have been best solved by scaling, or, like continual learning, look increasingly like they are going to be soon). 2leogao2d I suppose you're talking about this paper (https://arxiv.org/abs/2210.10760 [https://arxiv.org/abs/2210.10760]). It's important to note that in the setting of this paper, the reward model is only trained on samples from the original policy, whereas GAN discriminators are constantly trained with new data. Section 4.3 touches briefly on the iterated problems, which is closer in setting to GANs, where we correspondingly expect a reduction in overoptimization (i.e the beta term). It is definitely true that you have to be careful whenever you're optimizing any proxy metric, and this is one big reason I feel kind of uncomfortable about proposals like RLHF/RRM. In fact, our setting probably underestimates the amount of overoptimization due to the synthetic setup. However, it does seem like GAN mode collapse is largely unrelated to this effect of overoptimization, and it seems like gwern's claim is mostly about this. Mechanism 2: deceptive alignment Suppose that during training my AI system had some arbitrary long-term goal. Many long-term goals would be best-served if the deployed AI system had that same goal. And so my AI is motivated to get a low loss, so that gradient descent won’t change its goals. As a result, a very wide range of long-term goals will lead to competent loss-minimizing behavior. On the other hand, there is a very narrow range of short-term goals that lead to competent loss-minimizing behavior: “minimize the loss.” So gradient descent on the short-term loss function can easily push towards long-term goals (in fact it would both push towards the precise short-term goals that result in low loss and arbitrary long-term goals, and it seems like a messy empirical question which one you get). This might not happen early in training, but eventually our model is competent enough to appreciate these arguments and perhaps for it to be extremely obvious to it that it should avoid taking actions that would be penalized by training. It doesn’t seem like there are any behavioral checks we can do to easily push gradient descent back in the other direction, since an agent that is trying to get... I agree that this sort of deceptive misalignment story is speculative but a priori plausible. I think it's very difficult to reason about these sorts of nuanced inductive biases without having sufficiently tight analogies to current systems or theoretical models; how this will play out (as with other questions of inductive bias) probably depends to a large extent on what the high-level structure of the AI system looks like. Because of this, I think it's more likely than not that our predictions about what these inductive biases will look like are pretty off-base. That being said, here are the first few specific reasons to doubt the scenario which come to mind right now: 1. If the system is modular, such that the part of the system representing the goal is separate from the part of the system optimizing the goal, then it seems plausible that we can apply some sort of regularization to the goal to discourage it from being long term. It's imaginable that the goal is a mesa-objective which is mixed in some inescapably non-modular way with the rest of the system, but then it would be surprising to me if the system's behavior could really best be best characterized as optimizing this single ... 7Vivek Hebbar5d What kind of regularization could this be? And are you imagining an AlphaZero-style system with a hardcoded value head, or an organically learned modularity? 6paulfchristiano5d I think the situation is much better if deceptive alignment is inconsistent. I also think that's more likely, particularly if we are trying. That said, I don't think the problem goes away completely if deceptive alignment is inconsistent. We may still have limited ability to distinguish deceptively aligned models from models that are trying to optimize reward, or we may find that models that are trying to optimize reward are unsuitable in practice (e.g. because of the issues raised in mechanism 1) and so selecting for things that works means you are selecting for deceptive alignment. 9benedelman5d Thank you for the insightful comments!! I've added thoughts on Mechanisms 1 and 2 below. Some reactions to your scattered disagreements (my personal opinions; not Boaz's): 1. I agree that extracting short-term modules from long-term systems is more likely than not to be extremely hard. (Also that we will have a better sense of the difficulty in the nearish future as more researchers work on this sort of task for current systems.) 2. I agree that the CEO point might be the weakest in the article. It seems very difficult to find high-quality evidence about the impact of intelligence on long-term strategic planning in complex systems, and this is a major source of my uncertainty about whether our thesis is true. Note that even if making CEOs smarter would improve their performance, it may still be the case that any intelligence boost is fully substitutable by augmentation with advanced short-term AI systems. 3. From published results I've seen (e.g. comparison of LSTMs vs Transformers in figure 7 of Kaplan et al. [https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.08361], effects of architecture tweaks in other papers such as this one [https://proceedings.mlr.press/v162/bansal22b/bansal22b.pdf]), architectural improvements (R&D) tend to have only a minimal effect on the exponent of scaling power laws; so the differences in the scaling laws could hypothetically be compensated for by increasing compute by a multiplicative constant. (Architecture choice can have a more significant effect on factors like parallelizability and stability of training.) I'm very curious whether you've seen results that suggest otherwise (I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case, the examples I've seen are very limited, and I'd love to see more extensive studies), or whether you have more relevant intuition/evidence for there being no "floor" to hypothetically achievable scaling laws. 4. I agree that our argument should r 4paulfchristiano5d I usually think of the effects of R&D as multiplicative savings in compute, which sounds consistent with what you are saying. For example, I think a conservative estimate might be that doubling R&D effort allows you to cut compute by a factor of 4. (The analogous estimate for semiconductor R&D is something like 30x cost reduction per 2x R&D increase.) These numbers are high enough to easily allow explosive growth until the returns start diminishing much faster. Yes. I mean that if we have alignment problems such that all the most effective AI systems have long-term goals, and if all of those systems can get what they want together (e.g. because they care about reward), then to predict the outcome we should care about what would happen in a conflict between (those AIs) vs (everyone else). So I expect in practice we need to resolve alignment problems well enough that there are approximately competitive systems without malign long-term goals. 3boazbarak4d Would you agree that the current paradigm is almost in direct contradiction to long-term goals? At the moment, to a first approximation, the power of our systems is proportional to the logarithm of their number of parameters, and again to a first approximation, we need to take a gradient step per parameter in training. So what it means is that if we have 100 Billion parameters, we need to make 100 Billion iterations where we evaluate some objective/loss/reward value and adapt the system accordingly. This means that we better find some loss function that we can evaluate on a relatively time-limited and bounded (input, output) pair rather than a very long interaction. 7paulfchristiano4d I agree with something similar, but not this exact claim. I think this provides a headwind that makes AIs worse at complex skills where performance can only be evaluated over long horizons. But it's not a strong argument against pursuing long-horizon goals or any simple long-horizon behaviors.(Superhuman competence at long horizon tasks doesn't seem necessary for either of the mechanisms I'm suggesting.) In particular, systems trained on lots of short-horizon datapoints can still learn a lot about how the world works at larger timescales. For example, existing LMs understand quite a bit about longer-horizon dynamics of the world despite being trained on next-token prediction. Such systems can make reasonable judgments about what actions would lead to effects in the longer run. As a result I'd expect smart systems can be quickly fine-tuned to pursue long-horizon goals (or might pursue them organically), even though they don't have any complex cognitive abilities that don't help improve loss on the short-horizon pre-training task. Note that people concerned about AI safety often think about this concept under the same heading of horizon length. A relatively common view is that training cost scales roughly linearly with horizon length and so AI systems will be relatively bad at long-horizon tasks (and perhaps the timeline to transformative AI may be longer than you would think based on extrapolations from competent short-horizon behavior). There are a few dissenting views: (i) almost all long-horizon tasks have rich feedback over short horizons if you know what to look for, so in practice things that feel like "long-horizon" behaviors aren't really, (ii) although AI systems will be worse at long-horizon tasks, so are humans and so it's unlikely to be a major comparative advantage for AIs, most of the things we think of as sophisticated long-horizon behavior are just short-horizon cognitive behaviors (like carrying out reasoning or iterating on plans) applied to a q 3paulfchristiano4d This is a bit of an unrelated aside, but I don't think it's so clear that "power" is logarithmic (or what power means). One way we could try to measure this is via something like effective population. If N models with 2M parameters are as useful as kN models with M parameters, what is k? In cases where we can measure I think realistic values tend to be >4. That is, if you had a billion models with N parameters working together in a scientific community, I think you'd get more work out of 250 million models with 2N parameters, and so have great efficiency per unit of compute. There's still a question of how e.g. scientific output scales with population. One way you can measure it is by asking "If N people working for 2M years, is as useful as kN people working for M years, what is k?" where I think that you also tend to get numbers in the ballpark of 4, though this is even harder to measure than the question about models. But I think most economists would guess this is more like root(N) than log(N). That still leaves the question of how scientific output scales with time spent thinking. In this case it seems more like an arbitrary choice of units for measuring "scientific output." E.g. I think there's a real sense in which each improvement to semiconductors takes exponentially more effort than the unit before. But the upshot of all of that is that if you spend 2x as many years, we expect to be able to build computers that are >10x more efficient. So its' only really logarithmic if you measure "years of input" on a linear scale but "efficiency of output" on a logarithmic scale. Other domains beyond semiconductors grow less explosively quickly, but seem to have qualitatively similar behavior. See e.g. are ideas getting harder to find? [https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20180338] 1boazbarak2d Quick comment (not sure it's realted to any broader points): total compute for N models with 2M parameters is roughly 4NM^2 (since per Chinchilla, number of inference steps scales linearly with model size, and number of floating point operations also scales linearly, see also my calculations here [https://windowsontheory.org/2022/06/27/injecting-some-numbers-into-the-agi-debate/] ). So an equal total compute cost would correspond to k=4. What I was thinking when I said "power" is that it seems that in most BIG-Bench scales, if you put the y axis some measure of performance (e.g. accuracy) then it seems to scale as some linear or polynomial way in the log of parameters, and indeed I belive the graphs in that paper usually have log parameters in the X axis. It does seem that when we start to saturate performance (error tends to zero), the power laws kick in, and its more like inverse polynomial in the total number of parameters than their log. 3Daniel Kokotajlo4d Are you making a forecast about the inability of AIs in, say, 2026 to operate mostly autonomously for long periods in diverse environments, fulfilling goals? I'd potentially be interested to place bets with you if so. 4boazbarak2d My forecast would be that an AI that operates autonomously for long periods would be composed of pieces that make human-interpretable progress in the short term. For example, a self-driving car will be able to eventually to drive to New York to Los Angeles, but I believe it would do so by decomposing the task into many small tasks of getting from point A to B. It would not do so by sending it out to the world (or even a simulated world) and repeatedly playing a game where it gets a reward if it reaches Los Angeles, and gets nothing if it doesn't. 2Daniel Kokotajlo2d That sounds very different to me from "the current paradigm is almost in direct contradiction to long-term goals." Maybe we agree after all. Possible remaining differences between us: Are you imagining 0 end-to-end training of the system, or just a small amount? For example, consider WebGPT and OpenAI's more recent Minecraft agent. They were trained for many steps with unsupervised learning and then fine-tuned for a bit with end-to-end RL, if I recall correctly. Are you saying that insofar as AI opererates autonomously for more than, say, 100,000 serial forward passes, it'll involve 0 end-to-end training? If so then I'd disagree and say it'll probably involve some. Probably our disagreements have more to do with how human-interpretable the resulting systems will be and how well-described they'll be as having long-term goals. I'm bearish on the first and bullish on the second. (Note that I think they'll mostly have short-term goals, like humans. But like humans, they'll have at least some long-term goals.) 5boazbarak5d Thanks for your comments! Some quick responses: * I agree that extracting short-term modules from long-term modules is very much an open question. However, it may well be that our main problem would be the opposite: the systems would be trained already with short-term goals, and so we just want to make sure that they don't accidentally develop a long-term goal in the process (this may be related to your mechanisms posts, which I will respond to separately) * I do think that there is a sense in which, in a chaotic world, some "greedy" or simple heuristics end up to be better than ultra complex ones. In Chess you could sacrifice a Queen in order to get some advantage much later on, but in business, while you might sacrifice one metric (e.g., profit) to maximize another (e.g. growth), you need to make some measurable progress. If we think of cognitive ability as the ability to use large quantities of data and perform very long chains of reasonings on them, then I do believe these are more needed for scientists or engineers than for CEOs. (In an earlier draft we also had another example for the long-term benefits of simple strategies: the fact that the longest-surviving species are simple ones such as cockroaches, crocodiles etc. , but Ben didn't like it :) ) * I agree deterrence is very problematic, but prevention might be feasible. For example, while AI would greatly increase the capabilities for hacking, it would also increase the capabilities to harden our systems. In general, I find research on prevention to be more attractive than alignment since it also applies to the scenario (more likely in my view) of malicious humans using AI to cause massive harm. It also doesn't require us to speculate about objects (long-term planning AIs) that don't yet exist. 5paulfchristiano5d I agree that's a plausible goal, but I'm not convinced it will be so easy. The current state of our techniques is quite crude and there isn't an obvious direction for being able to achieve this kind of goal. (That said, I'm certainly not confident it's hard, and there are lots of things to try---both at this stage and for other angles of attack. Of course this is part of how I end up more like 10-20% risk of trouble than a 80-90% risk of trouble.) I agree with this. I think cybersecurity is an unusual domain where it is particularly plausible that "defender wins" even given a large capability gap (though it's not the case right now!). I'm afraid there is more attack surface that are harder to harden. But I do think there's a plausible gameplan here that I find scary but that even I would agree can at least delay trouble. I think there is agreement that this scenario is more likely, the question is about the total harm (and to a lesser extent about how much concrete technical projects might reduce that risk). Cybersecurity improvements unquestionably have real social benefits, but cybersecurity investment is 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than AI alignment investment right now. In contrast, I'd argue that believe the total expected social cost of cybersecurity shortcomings is maybe an order of magnitude lower than alignment shortcomings, and I'd guess that other reasonable estimates for the ratio should be within 1-2 orders of magnitude of that. If we were spending significantly more on alignment than cybersecurity, then I would be quite sympathetic to an argument to shift back in the other direction. Research on alignment can focus on existing models---understanding those models, or improving their robustness, or developing mechanisms to oversee them in domains where they are superhuman, or so on. In fact this is a large majority of alignment research weighted by or hours spent. To the extent that this research is ultimately intended to address risks that ar
3boazbarak4d
As you probably imagine given my biography :) , I am never against any research, and definitely not for reasons of practical utility. So am definitely very supportive of research on alignment, and not claiming that it shouldn't be done. In my view, one of the interesting technical questions is to what extent can long-term goals emerge from systems trained with short-term objectives, and (if it happens) whether we can prevent this while still keeping short-term performance as good. One reason I like the focus on the horizon rather than alignment with human values is that the former might be easier to define and argue about. But this doesn't mean that we should not care about the latter.
2paulfchristiano4d
I definitely think it's interesting to understand and control whether a model is pursuing a long-horizon goal (though talking about the "goal" of a model seems quite slippery). I think that most work on alignment doesn't need to get into the difficulties of defining or arguing about human values. I'm normally focused more on goals like: "does my AI make statements that it knows to be unambiguously false?" (see ELK [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WwsnJQstPq91_Yh-Ch2XRL8H_EpsnjrC1dwZXR37PC8/edit#heading=h.kkaua0hwmp1d] ).
3LawrenceC5d
There's a few, for example the classic "Are CEOs Born Leaders?" [https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/16-044_9c05278e-9d11-4315-a744-de008edf4d80.pdf] which uses the same Swedish data and finds a linear relationship of cognitive ability with both log company assets and log CEO pay, though it also concludes that the effect isn't super large. The main reason there aren't more is that we generally don't have good cognitive data on most CEOs. (There are plenty of studies looking at education attainment or other proxies.) You can see this trend in the Dal Bo et al Table cited in the main post as well. (As an aside, I'm a bit worried about the Swedish dataset, since the cognitive ability of Swedish large-firm CEOs is lower than Herrnstein and Murray (1996)'s estimated cognitive ability of 12.9 million Americans in managerial roles. Maybe something interesting happens with CEOs in Sweden?) It is very well established that certain CEOs are consistently better than others, i.e. CEO level fixed effects matter significantly to company performance across a broad variety of outcomes.

1. Long-term planning is not useful because of chaos
2. Short-term AIs have no alignment problem
3. Among humans, skill is not important for leadership, beyond some point
4. Human brains have an advantage w.r.t. animals because of "universality", and any further advantage can only come from scaling with resources.

I wish to address these claims one by one.

## Claim 1

This is an erroneous application of chaos theory IMO. The core observation of chaos theory is, that in many dynamical systems with compact phase space, any distribution converges (in the Kantorovich-Rubinstein sense) to a unique stationary distribution. This means that small measurement errors lead to large prediction errors, and in the limit no information from the initial condition remains.

However, real-world dynamical systems are often not compact in the relevant approximation. In particular, acquisition of resources and development of new technologies are not bounded from above on a relevant scale. Indeed, trends in GDP growth and technological progress continue over long time scales and haven't converged, so far, to a stationary distribution. Ultimately, thes...

3boazbarak4d
Hi Vanessa, Let me try to respond (note the claim numbers below are not the same as in the essay, but rather as in Vanessa's comment): Claim 1: Our claim is that one can separate out components - there is the predictable component which is non stationary, but is best approximated with a relatively simple baseline, and the chaotic component, which over the long run is just noise.In general, highly complex rules are more sensitive to noise (in fact, there are theorems along these lines in the field of Analysis of Boolean Functions [https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.10386]), and so in the long run, the simpler component will dominate the accuracy. Claim 2: Hacking is actually a fairly well-specified endeavor. People catalog, score, and classify security vulnerabilities [https://cve.mitre.org/]. To hack would be to come up with a security vulnerability, and exploit code, which can be verified. Also, you seem to be envisioning a long-term AI that is then fine-tuned on a short-term task, but how did it evolve these long-term goals in the first place? Claim 3: I would not say that there is no such thing as talent in being a CEO or presidents. I do however believe that the best leaders have been some combination of their particular characteristics and talents, and the situation they were in. Steve Jobs has led Apple to become the largest company in the world, but it is not clear that he is a "universal CEO" that would have done as good in any company (indeed he failed with NeXT). Similarly, Abraham Lincoln is typically ranked as the best U.S. president by historians, but again I think most would agree that he fit well the challenge that he had to face, rather than being someone that would have just as well handled the cold war or the 1970s energy crisis. Also, as Yafah points elsewhere here, for people to actually trust an AI with being the leader of a company or a country, it would need to not just be as good as humans or a little better, but better by a huge margin. In f
5Vanessa Kosoy4d
Thanks for the responses Boaz! I will look into analysis of boolean functions, thank you. However, unless you want to make your claim more rigorous, it seems suspect to me. In reality, there are processes happening simultaneously on many different timescales, from the microscopic to the cosmological. And, these processes are coupled, so that the current equilibrium of each process can be regarded as a control signal for the higher timescale processes. This means we can do long-term planning by starting from the long timescales and back-chaining to short timescales, like I began to formalize here [https://www.alignmentforum.org/posts/dPmmuaz9szk26BkmD/shortform?commentId=cusSXZSYskdfAH8wX] . So, while eventually the entire universe reaches an equilibrium state (a.k.a. heat-death), there is plenty of room for long-term planning before that. Yeeees, it does seem like hacking is an especially bad example. But even in this example, my position is quite defensible. Yes, theoretically you can formally specify the desired behavior of the code and verify that it always happens. But, there are two problems with that: First, for many realistic software system, the formal specification would require colossal effort. Second, the formal verification is only as good as the formal model. For example, if the attacker found a hardware exploit, while your model assumes idealized behavior for the hardware, the verification doesn't help. And, it domains outside software the situation is much worse: how do you "verify" that your biological security measures are fool-proof, for example? When you're selecting for success on a short-term goal you might inadvertently produce a long-term agent (which, on the training distribution, is viewing the short-term goal as instrumental for its own goals), just like how evolution was selecting for genetic fitness but ended up producing agents with many preferences unrelated to that. More speculatively, there might be systematic reasons for such ag
1boazbarak2d
Hi Vanesssa, Perhaps given my short-term preference, it's not surprising that I find it hard to track very deep comment threads, but let me just give a couple of short responses. I don't think the argument on hacking relied on the ability to formally verify systems. Formally verified systems could potentially skew the balance of power to the defender side, but even if they don't exist, I don't think balance is completely skewed to the attacker. You could imagine that, like today, there is a "cat and mouse" game, where both attackers and defenders try to find "zero day vulnerabilities" and exploit (in one case) or fix (in the other). I believe that in the world of powerful AI, this game would continue, with both sides having access to AI tools, which would empower both but not necessarily shift the balance to one or the other. I think the question of whether a long-term planning agent could emerge from short-term training is a very interesting technical question! Of course we need to understand how to define "long term" and "short term" here. One way to think about this is the following: we can define various short-term metrics, which are evaluable using information in the short-term, and potentially correlated with long-term success. We would say that a strategy is purely long-term if it cannot be explained by making advances on any combination of these metrics.
2Vanessa Kosoy2d
My point was not about the defender/attacker balance. My point was that even short-term goals can be difficult to specify, which undermines the notion that we can easily empower ourselves by short-term AI. Sort of. The correct way to make it more rigorous, IMO, is using tools from algorithmic information theory, like I suggested here [https://www.alignmentforum.org/posts/dPmmuaz9szk26BkmD/vanessa-kosoy-s-shortform?commentId=ovBmi2QFikE6CRWtj] .

Sorry, but I only skimmed this... The supposition seems to be that "human with AI advisor" will always stay ahead of "pure AI". But how easily does "human with AI advisor" turn into "AI with a human peripheral" or "posthuman with an AI exocortex"? Is there some reason why neurons are better than transistors at executive functions? This essay is like saying "the neocortex will change the world but the midbrain will still be in charge".

I think that if humans with AI advisors are approximately as competent as pure AI in terms of pure capabilities, I would expect that humans with AI advisors would outcompete the pure AI in practice given that the humans appear more aligned and less likely to be dangerous then pure AI - a significant competitive advantage in a lot of power seeking scenarios where gaining the trust of other agents is important.

3boazbarak5d
Yes, we usually select our leaders (e.g., presidents) not for their cognitive abilities but literally for how “aligned “ we believe they are with our interest. Even if we completely solve the alignment problem, AI would likely face an uphill battle in overcoming prejudice and convincing people that they are as aligned as an alternative human. As the saying goes for many discriminated groups, they would have to be twice as good to get to the same place.
2boazbarak5d
We do not assume that humans are superior to AI in any way, or that neurons are superior to transistors. Similarly we do not claim that an AI CEO would be inferior to a human one. Rather we only claim that it would not dominate a human CEO as an AI chess player is to a human chess player. Note that currently, CEOs are usually not the smartest employees in their company, but that does not mean that they are the peripheral of their smartest engineers.

This is quite well-written. The first point where I ran into a wall was the distinction you drew between short-term goals and long-term strategies as two categorically different things.

I note that AIs can trivially set long-term strategy. I just generated this on GPT-2:

“The President of the United States says, "my fellow Americans, the long-term strategy for our country is this:

1. Let's get rid of the Bush tax rates

2. Cut income taxes for ordinary American workers (including retirees) and for corporations”

The question is how to translate this strategy i...

4boazbarak4d
I do not claim that AI cannot set long-term strategies. My claim is that this is not where AI's competitive advantages over humans will be. I could certainly imagine that a future AI would be 10 times better than me in proving mathematical theorems. I am not at all sure it would be 10 times better than Joe Biden in being a U.S. president, and mostly it is because I don't think that the information-processing capabilities are really the bottleneck for that job. (Though certainly, the U.S. as a whole, including the president, would benefit greatly from future AI tools, and it is quite possible that some of Biden's advisors would be replaced by AIs.)

I agree that the plausibility and economic competitiveness of long-term planning AIs seems uncertain (especially with chaotic systems) and warrants more investigation, so I'm glad you posted this! I also agree that trying to find ways to incentivize AI to pursue myopic goals generally seems good.

I'm somewhat less confident, however, in the claim that long-term planning has diminishing returns beyond human ability. Intuitively, it seems like human understanding of possible long-term returns diminishes past human ability, but it still seems plausible to me t...

3boazbarak5d
Re myopic, I think that possibly, a difference between my view and at least some people’s is that rather than seeing being myopic as a property that we would have to be ensured by regulation or the goodness of the AI creator’s heart, I view it as the default. I think the biggest bang for the buck in AI would be to build systems with myopic training objectives and use them to achieve myopic tasks, where they produce some discrete output/product that can be evaluated on its own merits. I see AI as more doing tasks such as “find security flaws in software X and provide me exploit code as verification” than “chart a strategy for the company that would maximize its revenues over the next decade”.
1boazbarak5d
Thanks! I guess one way to motivate our argument is that if the information-processing capabilities of humans were below the diminishing returns point, then we would have expect that individual humans with much greater than average information-processing capabilities to have distinct advantage in jobs such as CEOs and leaders. This doesn't seem to be the case. I guess that if the AI is deceptive and power-seeking but is not better at long-term planning than humans, then it basically becomes one more deceptive and power-seeking actor in a world that already has them, rather than completely dominate all other human agents. I've written about the Meta AI paper on Twitter [https://twitter.com/boazbaraktcs/status/1595143618779525120?s=20&t=lBBw5nfNBh2QTiS25apzIw] - actually its long-term component is a game engine which is not longer term than AlphaZero. The main innovation is combining such an engine with a language model.
9habryka5d
I don't understand, this seems clearly the case to me. Higher IQ seems to result in substantially higher performance in approximately all domains of life, and I strongly expect the population of successful CEOs to have many standard deviations above average IQ.
1boazbarak5d
How many standard deviations? My (admittedly only partially justified) guess is that there are diminishing returns to being (say) three standard deviations above the mean compared to two in a CEO position as opposed to (say) a mathematician. (Not that IQ is perfectly correlated with math success either.)
2habryka5d
At least for income the effect seems robust into the tails, where IIRC each standard deviation added a fixed amount of expected income in basically the complete dataset.
1Noosphere895d
This can't actually happen, but only due to the normal distribution of human intelligence placing hard caps on how much variance exists in humans.
1boazbarak5d
There are only (by definition) 100 CEOs of Fortune 100 companies, so a priori, they could have an IQ score of the top 100 humans which (assuming a normal distribution) would be at least 4 standard deviations above the mean (see here [https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?key=&i=erf%284%29]).
2Noosphere895d
My view is the reasons individual humans don't dominate is due to an IID distribution, called the normal distribution, holds really well for human intelligence. 68% percent of the population is a .85x-1.15x smartness level, 95% of the population is .70-1.30x smartness, and 99.7% percent are .55-1.45x smartness level. Even 2x in a normal distribution is off the scale, and one order of magnitude more compute is so far beyond it that the IID distribution breaks hard. And even with 3x differences like humans-rest of animals, things are already really bad in our own world. Extrapolate that to 10x or 100x and you have something humanity is way off distribution for.
1boazbarak5d
Even if you assume that intelligence is distributed normally, why aren’t we selecting CEOs from the right tail of that distribution today?
5Noosphere895d
Uh, there is? IQ matters for a lot of complicated jobs, so much so that I tend to assume whenever there is something complicated at play, there will be a selection effects towards greater intelligence. Now the results are obviously very limited, but they matter in real life. Here's a link to why I think IQ is important: https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/ses/index [https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/ses/index]
1boazbarak5d
The table we quote suggests that CEOs are something like only one standard deviation above the mean. This is not surprising: at least my common sense suggests that scientists and mathematicians should have on average greater skills of the type measured by IQ than CEOs, despite the latter’s decisions being more far reaching and their salary’s being higher.
2Gabriel Mukobi5d
I don't know much about how CEOs are selected, but I think the idea is rather that the range of even the (small) tails of normally-distributed human long-term planning ability is pretty close together in the grand picture of possible long-term planning abilities, so other factors (including stochasticity) can dominate and make the variation among humans wrt long-term planning seem insignificant. If this were true, it would mean the statement "individual humans with much greater than average (on the human scale) information-processing capabilities empirically don't seem to have distinct advantages in jobs such as CEOs and leaders" could be true and yet not preclude the statement "agents with much greater than average (on the universal scale) ... could have distinct advantages in those jobs" from being true (sorry if that was confusingly worded).
1boazbarak5d
Of course we cannot rule out that there is some “phase transition “ and while IQ 140 is not much better than IQ 120 for being a CEO, something happens with IQ 1000 (or whatever the equivalent). We argue why we do not expect such a phase transition. (In the sense that at least in computation, there is only one phase transition to universality and after passing it, the system is not bottlenecks by the complexity of any one unit.) However I agree that we cannot rule it out. We’re just pointing out that there isn’t evidence for that, in contrast to the ample evidence for the usefulness of information processing for medium term tasks.
0Noosphere895d
I agree there isn't a phase transition in the technical sense, but the relevant phase transition is the breaking of the IID assumption and distribution, which essentially allow you to interpolate arbitrarily well.

Thanks for so many comments! I do plan to read them carefully and respond, but it might take me a while. In the meantime, Scott Aaronson also has a relevant blog https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=6821

Happy thanksgiving to all who celebrate it!

Hi, thanks both for writing this - I enjoyed it.

1. I'd be interested in your thoughts on how we can do this:
> However, perhaps more [emphasis] should be placed on building just-as-powerful AI systems that are restricted to short time horizons.

I can share some of my thoughts first, and would be keen to hear (both/either of) yours.

• It's worth saying up front that I also think this is a very productive direction, and that your post lays out a good case for why.
• Here's one salient baseline strategy, and a corresponding failure mode: At each point in time t, wher
...
1boazbarak2d
Thank you! I think that what we see right now is that as the horizon grows, the more "tricks" we need to make end-to-end learning works, to the extent that it might not really be end to end. So while supervised learning is very successful, and seems to be quite robust to choice of architecture, loss functions, etc., in RL we need to be much more careful, and often things won't work "out of the box" in a purely end to end fashion. I think the question would be how performance scales with horizon, if the returns are rapidly diminishing, and the cost to train is rapidly increasing (as might well be the case because of diminishing gradient signals, and much smaller availability of data), then it could be that the "sweet spot" of what is economical to train would remain at a reasonably short horizon (far shorter than the planning needed to take over the world) for a long time.

### Claim 3: There may be fundamental “scaling laws” governing the amount of performance AI systems can achieve as a function of the data and computational resources.

I'm personally pretty sympathetic to the idea that there are indeed metrics through which model progress is continuous (both as a function of scale and over the course of training).

That being said: smooth performance along one metric doesn't necessarily imply smooth downstream performance! (E.g. from your "SGD learns parity close to the computational limit" paper, even though there exist smo...

2boazbarak5d
It is indeed the case that sometimes we see phase transitions / discontinuous improvements, and this is an area which I am very interested in. Note however that (while not in our paper) typically in graphs such as BIG-Bench, the X axis is something like log number of parameters. So it does seem you pay quite a price to achieve improvement. The claim there is not so much about the shape of the laws but rather about potential (though as you say, not certain at all) limitations as to what improvements you can achieve through pure software alone, without investing more compute and/or data. Some other (very rough) calculations of costs are attempted in my previous blog post [https://windowsontheory.org/2022/06/27/injecting-some-numbers-into-the-agi-debate/] .
2LawrenceC5d
Yeah, I agree that a lot of the “phase transitions” look more discontinuous than they actually are due to the log on the x axis — the OG grokking paper definitely commits this sin, for example. (I think there’s also another disagreement here about how close humans are to this natural limit.)

Thanks for writing this -- I found it interesting, thoughtful, and well-written.

One distinction which seems useful to make is between:

• long-term goals
• long-term planning
• long-term capabilities (i.e. the ability to reliably impact the long-term future in a particular way).

It seems to me that this post argues that:

1. AI systems' long-term planning won't be that much better than humans' (claims 1 and 3).
2. AI systems won't develop long-term goals (claims 4, 5, and 6).
3. Given (1) (and given that both humans and AI systems with long-term goals will have access to systems
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2benedelman4d
Re your second critique: why do you think an AI system (without superhuman long-term planning ability) would be more likely to take over the world this way than an actor controlled by humans (augmented with short-term AI systems) who have long-term goals that would be instrumentally served by world domination?
1Sam Marks4d
I think that a competent human actor assisted by short-term AI systems plausibly could take over the world this way; I'm just inclined to call that a misuse problem rather than an alignment problem. (Or in other words, fixing that requires solving the human alignment problem, which feels like it requires different solutions, e.g. coordination and governmental oversight, than the AI alignment problem.)
1benedelman4d
In those terms, what we're suggesting is that, in the vision of the future we sketch, the same sorts of solutions might be useful for preventing both AI takeover and human takeover. Even if an AI has misaligned goals, coordination and mutually assured destruction and other "human alignment" solutions could be effective in stymying it, so long as the AI isn't significantly more capable than its human-run adversaries.
2benedelman4d
I'm confused about your first critique. You say the agent has a goal of generating a long-term plan which leads to as much long-term profit as possible; why do you call this a short-term goal, rather than a long-term goal? Do you mean that the agent only takes actions over a short period of time? That's true in some sense in your example, but I would still characterize this as a long-term goal because success (maximizing profit) is determined by long-term results (which depend on the long-term dynamics of a complex system, etc.).
1Sam Marks4d
I see two distinctions between a system like the one I described and a system with long-term goals in the usual sense. First, the goal "write down a plan which, if followed, would lead to long-term profit" is itself a short-term goal which could plausibly be trained up to human-level with a short-term objective function (by training on human-generated predictions). So I think this mechanism avoids the arguments made in claims 4 and 5 of the post for the implausibility of long-term goals (which is my motivation for mentioning it). (I can't tell if claim 6 was supposed to be addressing long-term goal formation stories like this one.) Second, the intrinsic goals of the system I described are all short-term (output the text of a plan for a long-term goal; pursue various short-term goals),so the possible alignment failures for such a system might need to be analyzed differently than those of a system with long-term intrinsic goals. For example, such a system might not plan ahead of time to disempower humans (since such disempowerment would come in the long-term, which it doesn't intrinsically care about). But once it finds that it has enough resources and power to disempower humans, it might then decide to take a catastrophic action, despite not having planned it in advance.
2benedelman4d
Ah, I think I understand what you meant now. The reward for this agent is not determined by the actual long-term consequences of its action, but by the predicted long-term consequences. In that case, yes, this seems like it might be an interesting middle ground between what we are calling short-term and long-term AIs. Though it still feels closer to a long-term agent to me—I'm confused about why you think it would both (a) not plan ahead of time to disempower humans, and (b) disempower humans when it has the chance. If the predictive model is accurate enough such that it is predictable that disempowering humans would be instrumentally useful, then wouldn't the model incorporate that into its earlier plans?
1Sam Marks2d