This post seems to be a duplicate of this one originally posted in 2019. Right? Sorry if I'm confused.
Yes. I didn't intentionally post this; it seems to have been automatically crossposted from my blog (but I'm not sure why).
I'm open to deleting it, but there are already a bunch of comments; not sure what the best move is.
RSS feed imports are a bit finicky and usually only show the last N posts or so. Maybe you deleted an old post of yours, which caused it to show up in the RSS feed again, and then we imported it on the assumption that it's a new post. Though we do have some sanity-checks to not double-import posts, so I wonder what happened.
You're not wrong, but that's only the beginning. Metamathematics shows you can't achieve every desideratum for.a formal proof system simultaneously. Similar, but less formal arguments apply to epistemology.
My main objection to this view is, broadly speaking, that there is no canonical “idealised version” of a person
Then the project of ethics becomes about this subproblem of identifying a close enough idealization/tempering of a person.
Value aggregation seems solvable with this component and not at all solvable without it.
Are my values taken from the state of mind in which I'm most agentic, the state of mind when my awareness is as expansive as it gets, the things I would decide after a hundred years reflection, the person I wish I was in spite of the one that I am, or have I internalized the values of my community to such a deep extent that a portion of the decision as to who I will crystalize as lies with them? Where from our daily stream of desires do we sample, beginning middle or end? Should the (simulated) moral judgement interview room be brown or white or green? Should we be judging in prospective or retrospective? Alone, or with friends?
I think this may be the component of the specification of alignment or a single human's desires, that may actually be culturally specific, this may be the part of the job that humanities majors are supposed to do, if their art is real?
What's the logical and theoretical basis for the supposed existence of such a construct?
If there isn't, then the default assumption is that there's no such thing. Much like how we by default assume that there are no porcelain teapots orbiting the sun.
I feel like you're asking me the logical and theoretical basis for the existence of feet: I don't know what must be going on in your head to ask such a question, why you would have a blindspot for such an obvious thing, so I don't know how to help.
You have not sensed that humans are often like agents, or agency-pursuing, or that they have consistent enough desires, or that they aren't attached to their inconsistencies, or that the inconsistencies they're most attached to could be formalized as a kind of discontinuity in a utility function. To have passions that are taken seriously. I don't know what it means for a person to lack that sense.
You think the average person has, or believes in, a 'canonical “idealised version"' of themselves in some form?
Did you forget that your quoting Richard_Ngo who also has expressed reservations along the same lines?
I don't want to burst your bubble but the chances of your views being in the minority is not zero. Certainly far greater then what the certitude of the reply would suggest.
Has, doesn't believe in, but would after the right series of conversations.
Quoting? I see the reservations. I'm trying to engage with them.
I would guess that many anti-realists are sympathetic to the arguments I’ve made above, but still believe that we can make morality precise without changing our meta-level intuitions much - for example, by grounding our ethical beliefs in what idealised versions of ourselves would agree with, after long reflection. My main objection to this view is, broadly speaking, that there is no canonical “idealised version” of a person, and different interpretations of that term could lead to a very wide range of ethical beliefs.
I agree with this ("there is no canonical 'idealized version' of a person...") but don't actually see how it is an objection to the proposed grounding method?
CEV is an extrapolation, and I think it's likely that there are multiple valid ways to do the extrapolation when starting from humans. A being that results from one possible extrapolation may find the existence of a being that results from a different extrapolation morally horrifying, or at least way lower utility than beings like itself.
But (by definition of CEV), they should all be broadly acceptable to the original thing that was first extrapolated. The extrapolation process will probably require deciding on some tough questions and making tradeoffs where the answers feel unacceptable or at least arbitrary and unsatisfying to the original. But they probably won't feel arbitrary to the extrapolated beings that result - each possible being will be self-consistently and reflectively satisfied with the particular choices that were made in its history.
Another way of looking at it: I expect CEV() to be a lossy many-to-many map, which is non-value-destroying only in the forwards direction. That is, humans can be mapped to many different possible extrapolated beings, and different possible extrapolated beings reverse-map back to many different possible kinds of humans. But actually applying the reverse mapping to an extant mind is likely to be a moral horror according to the values of a supermajority (or at least a large coalition) of all possible beings. Applying the forwards map slightly incorrectly, or possibly even at all, might be horrifying to a lot of possible minds as well, but I expect the ratio to be tiny. Among humans (or at least LWers) I expect people to be mostly OK with having CEV() applied to them, but absolutely not want CEV^-1() applied afterwards.
I interpret the quote to mean that there's no guarantee that the reflection process converges. Its attractor could be a large, possibly infinite, set of states rather than a single point.
I think that's possible, but I'm saying we can just pick one of the endpoints (or pick an arbitrary, potentially infinitely-long path towards an endpoint), and most people (the original people, and the people who result from that picking) will probably be fine with that, even if involves making some tough and / or arbitrary choices along the way.
Or, if humans on reflection turn out to never want to make all of those choices, that's maybe also OK. But we probably need at least one person (or AI) to fully "grow up" into a coherent being, in order to actually do really big stuff, like putting up some guardrails in the universe.
That growing up process (which is hopefully causally descended from deliberate human action at some point far back enough) might involve making some arbitrary and tough choices in order to force it to converge in a reasonable length of time. But those choices seem worth making, because the guardrails are important, and an entity powerful enough to set them up is probably going to run into moral edge cases unavoidably. Better its behavior in those cases be decided by some deliberate process in humans, rather than left to some process even more arbitrary and morally unsatisfying.
CEV also has another problem that gets in the way of practically implementing it: it isn't embedded. At least in its current form, CEV doesn't have a way of accounting for side-effects (either physical or decision-theoretic) of the reflection process. When you have to deal with embeddedness, the distinction between reflection and action breaks down and you don't end up getting endpoints at all. At best, you can get a heuristic approximation.
Not a single extrapolation but exploration of the parameter space of valid extrapolations where the criteria for what counts as valid is part of what's being explored. Eg if each step of each extrapolation needs to be self authorizing (ie grant consent for its own existence) then that bounds a volume defined by all the paths that are so endorsed. One might then be tempted to ask about which chasms are worth crossing. But I think that question is better considered from the point of view of the cev of the endorsed volume first.
I'd say your position holds even if someone is a moral realist because the problem of the criterion shows us that we cannot be certain about moral facts, just as we cannot be certain about any facts. To claim otherwise is to suppose unjustifiable special ability to know the truth, which is a position some people take but which, for anyone other than themselves, does nothing to resolve uncertainty.