Fall 2010 Meta Thread

[-]NancyLebovitz15y140

And, having just spent some minutes paging back one page at a time (for some reason, changing the comment count in the url didn't work), I'd like to have a "go back to this date" for recent comments.

4Relsqui15y

I had the same problem going through my own overview to find a specific comment. As far as I can tell, if I wanted to reference my first comment on LW, I would have to page back through all the ones I've ever made.

[-]Wei Dai15y120

I wrote a script to coalesce all your comments and posts into one page for easier searching.

1Alicorn15y

That's awesome but I tried it on myself and it only goes back to February. Do I just have too many comments and posts?

0Wei Dai15y

Possibly, or maybe some network error occurred between LW and the server that the script is running on. Try again in a few hours, and drop me a PM if you're still not getting a full archive.

1Relsqui15y

Oh, neat. I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

[-]NancyLebovitz15y130

I'd like a way to track which of my comments have had recent changes to their karma. Or is there a method available which I haven't found?

0[anonymous]15y

I would also appreciate this.

[-]Larks15y90

We're currently have someone working on the LW code. While we can't promise miracles, if you have any ideas, suggestions, or complaints, now might be a good time to air them.

[-]Relsqui15y180

I'd like to see a larger textarea for comments. Some places have it resize depending on how much has been typed into it so far, but I'd settle for one which was simply a bit bigger (or a setting).

Of course, whether this is actually a good idea depends on how much you want to encourage me to write essays in the comments. (The bigger input field only matters when I've written a lot and want to skim back for errors.)

7cata15y

You might want to try Chrome, if you haven't. Every textarea on a page has a little grip at the bottom right with which you can resize it to however large you want. Example: http://i55.tinypic.com/w8828w.png Edit: As noted below by Spurlock and others, this works in all WebKit browsers, which I hadn't realized.

1Relsqui15y

That IS nice. I've tried Chrome a couple of times and didn't take to it, but I'll put that in its "pro" column for the next time I'm thinking about trying it.

0Spurlock15y

This is a feature of webkit browers in general. Which is to say, anyone who doesn't like Chrome could also use Safari. As a related side note, Safari's "Reader" feature is a huge improvement for reading HPMoR.

0mattnewport15y

Damn, I've been using Chrome since it was first released and I never knew about that. Thanks.

4WrongBot15y

The bottom-right corner of the comment text-entry box can be dragged to expand the box or change its size. Or is that not what you're referring to?

5kpreid15y

That is a browser feature, not a LW feature.

2RobinZ15y

Browser feature to which browser? On Mac, it works in Google Chrome, Stainless), and Safari) - it didn't in Firefox, but that's it.

4kpreid15y

All of the browsers you name are WebKit-based.

0RobinZ15y

That would probably explain it.

0WrongBot15y

Huh, I guess I'm spoiled. Apologies for contributing noise.

2Paul Crowley15y

If you're a Firefox user, may I recommend It's All Text?

0Relsqui15y

Ah, that will help! Thank you.

0Alicorn15y

Man, I was all excited about that plugin and then I saw the confusing, ambiguous notes about whether it would play nice on a Mac. Now I'm spooked and not sure if installing it will break something on my computer.

[-]erratio15y130

Record upvotes and downvotes separately, so that we can see the difference between "this post was polarising" and "this post was uninspiring"

ETA: Thanks to Bongo (below), I realise this suggestion is redundant, so instead I suggest that it would be nice to have upvote and downvote totals for users. Although.. I'm not sure how one would distinguish between someone with few downvotes because everything they say is awesome versus someone who is excessively conservative in their commenting (or worse, only posts applause lights)

Oh and in case it hasn't been suggested yet: it would be nice to be able to have a comment feed for single posts, or to filter out comments on posts that we really don't care about. (and while I'm at it, could I also get a pony? Thanks)

2Bongo15y

You can already "Sort By: Controversial"

3AdeleneDawner15y

That's not very useful for comments that are replies to other comments, though.

0Bongo15y

It sorts those too, tested it.

5AdeleneDawner15y

Given that it keeps comments that are replies to other comments nested under the comments that they're replying to, I suspect that that only makes a difference when one comment has two or more replies. It's much more common for a comment to have only one immediate-child-level reply, in which case it seems that the sorting doesn't make any difference in how that reply is displayed. So it's useful in some situations, but not in the majority, hence 'not very useful'.

0Mass_Driver15y

For the clueless among us: how?

7Bongo15y

http://i55.tinypic.com/2ey8go4.jpg

3Mass_Driver15y

Never have I been so thoroughly owned in so few characters.

0gwern15y

He could do better. http://is.gd/fjEp7 is 16 characters shorter.

2erratio15y

Lo and behold, I am enlightened! I hereby change my previous suggestion to "let users see a total of how often they've been upvoted and downvoted in total"

[-]Relsqui15y110

I'd like to be able to sort a user's contributions when viewing them, e.g. by score or age, like the posts-by-tag view.

4NancyLebovitz15y

And that reminds me-- it would be nice to be able to tag comments. What do people think of open tagging?

7James_Miller15y

Before someone posts an article, let them be able to enter a guess as to what it's Karma score will be in three days. After three days reveal the guess.

7Bongo15y

Show read/unread comments in a different color.

3[anonymous]15y

I'd like to see a way to save comments. Of course, I could just bookmark the permalinks, but it'd be nicer to have an in-site mechanism.

2wnoise15y

In what way would it be nicer?

2[anonymous]15y

I think saving and viewing them in-site would be a more aesthetically pleasing experience for me. Like saving posts in-site. It's probably not important enough to put more than a small amount of effort into though.

3magfrump15y

I posted something which is said to belong here.

2RHollerith15y

I would like some way to arrange to be notified by email or RSS of additions to my inbox. That way I could be responsive to PMs and replies to my comments even on days when loading LW in my browser to check for the little red envelope is too much of a temptation to procrastinate. There has always been an "RSS feed for this page" link on the /messages/inbox page, but it has never worked.

2purpleposeidon15y

I'd like to be able to read the LW archives when I'm without internet. So, it'd be nice to have a dump. I think best would be a git repository with a file for each article, and another file for the comments.

1purpleposeidon15y

Require new top-level posts to use a tag that indicates which facet of LW's interest it lies with. So each new post would have to choose on (or maybe more) of tags like "bayes", "selfimprovement", "philosophy". So, if I think that Lesswrong should really dedicate itself to the study of Victory and nothing else, I might read only posts with selfimprovement tags.

3Kevin15y

You mean a system like tagging?

1Larks15y

There already is a tag system (you can see the links on the right). Do you want it to be more prominent?

0pjeby15y

I think he's actually speaking of a fixed, required taxonomy field, rather than free-tagging (to abuse Drupal terminology). Free tagging is nice, but there's no way to structurally collapse the terms into a hierarchy, so that one can just browse "self improvement" - which might include akrasia, health, and improving personal rationality skills as subtopics.

2JGWeissman15y

You could have a system where the tag "akrasia" is marked as a subtag of "self-improvement", so that any article tagged with "akrasia" is implicitly tagged with "self-improvement".

0Relsqui15y

I think this is also one of the arguments for subfora.

1JamesAndrix15y

Could you be sure to update the instructions for reusing the code? I tried to play around with it months ago and couldn't get it working. This is hugely awesome software so it should be made as easy as possible to adopt.

1Morendil15y

What was your roadblock? I got it up and running on MacOS, willing to help if you'll describe where things went wrong.

0JamesAndrix15y

I don't even vaguely remember, but I'll find you if I have trouble next time.

0ShardPhoenix15y

Suggestion: Two different kinds of voting: good post/bad post, agree/disagree. Only the first would count towards karma - the second would be displayed seperately/adjacently.

2jimrandomh15y

Posts that argue for wrong ideas well are the worst kind; they lower the accuracy of everyone's beliefs, and they should not be encouraged. There is precedent for karma systems explicitly discouraging downvotes for well-argued wrong posts on Slashdot, and I believe that policy is partially responsible for the extremely high prevalence of inflammatory but plausible sounding falsehoods found there.

4ShardPhoenix15y

What's right and wrong is rarely as clear cut as that when you're talking about the type of topics discussed here. At any rate I'm not talking about rewarding well-written but clearly wrong posts, but rather posts that are interesting but of uncertain truth value (which is a lot of them on this site). Agree/disagree on the other hand would allow people to register whether they believe something is true/a good idea independently of how interesting it is. I guess rather than having two ratings that could be given seperately, you could vote a post as "agree" or "interesting", both giving postive karma, or "disagree" or "bad", both giving negative karma, but with visual distinguishment. This would give posters more accurate feedback without fundamentally changing the karma system. Right now if a post has a high rating it's unclear if people actually agree with it/think it's true or just find it useful/interesting, and similarly for low ratings.

2prase15y

Public expression of (dis)agreement creates emotional binding to beliefs and triggers some associated biases. Seeing how popular a belief is can bias people as well, functioning like an indirect argumentum ad populum. I would rather not know how much popular an opinion is; a well-reasoned disagreement or agreement accompanied by additional arguments are gladly accepted, but unsupported opinion expression ranges, in my opinion, from nearly worthless to actually harmful. Now the popularity of certain beliefs can be discerned from the present karma system too, but still it doesn't "officially" hold that highly upvoted post -> probably true. The less explicit meaning karma has, the less likely it produces biases, or at least I think so. Also, I agree with jimrandomh. To maintain that a post brings relevant, valid and good argument supporting X and simultaneously disagree with X seems irrational; rationalists are supposed to change their beliefs with new evidence. Upvoting an argument whose conclusion one doesn't accept means either that one values sophistry, or that one has an opinion (enough strong to be willing to express it by voting) in spite of accepting arguments to the contrary. I can imagine few situations when that may be appropriate, but not enough to justify existence of two voting scales.

2NancyLebovitz15y

I think my most upvoted posts have been the jokes. Perhaps there should be a fun/useful distinction.

1Relsqui15y

Personally, I use comments to specify. I notice that a lot of other people do not, and wonder if I'm violating a social more against relatively informationless comments by doing it (although I've gotten upvoted for it). I agree with the problem, though. I can't tell if the upvotes on this are meant to give me the confirmation I'm asking for, or join in the asking.

[-]kpreid15y80

Software feature request: I would like the little [-] button which collapses a subthread to be duplicated in some form at the bottom of that thread. The use is that when a thread looks like this:

comment A
   comment B
       ...really long thread...
   comment C

and I am looking at comment C, I can click the new thingy on the bottom edge of comment B's thread to collapse it and bring A in visual proximity to C. It is of course possible to scroll up and count box borders, or follow C's permalink and do 'show context', but these are both tedious.

(Then there... (read more)

0wedrifid15y

There's desktop apps for threaded reading? New to me.

0kpreid15y

The one I used back when I was still on Usenet was MacSOUP. It presents a single thread in a two-paned window; the top pane contains a graphical tree (replies rightward, siblings downward) of messages, highlighting unread/read, your own posts, and marked-interesting-or-worthless subthreads, and the bottom pane contains the current message. Furthermore, it's an offline reader, so every message is pre-downloaded; hit the spacebar and you are at the next message instantaneously. While it never showed more than one message at a time (being Usenet, there were usually quotes anyway), the thread tree (which could be navigated by keyboard) combined with the speed of navigation was very effective at letting one understand the complete structure of a discussion. I really hope that the blogs-and-feeds crowd gets threading implemented and someone writes an app like this for Atom/RSS/web pages, so that I can have that system again but with modernization of the other aspects.

[-]neq115y70

It would be nice if the top scoring all-time posts really reflected their impact. Right now there is some bias towards newer posts. Plus, Eliezer's sequences appeared at OB first, which greatly reduced LW upvotes.

Possible solution: every time a post is linked to from a new post, it gets an automatic upvote (perhaps we don't count it if linked to by same author). I don't know if it's technically feasible

2Document15y

And if linked to by someone who's already upvoted it.

[-]NancyLebovitz15y70

I've gotten upvotes for recommending that there should be a recent comments for posts as well as for the whole site, and I'm not the only person who's brought up the idea.

I think a LW how-to would be a good idea. I'm not the only person who's asked about how to use basic features like the message box, and I wonder how many people are missing out on a lot of the functionality of the site.

1NancyLebovitz15y

Recent comments for particular posts would be a huge gain in convenience, but I think it would probably make this place less of a community, as well as less of a temptation to akrasia.

0HughRistik15y

I brought up the recent comments for posts request a few months ago. I also got a lot of upvotes and agreement, but nothing actually happened.

0NancyLebovitz15y

The difference is that now there's someone to work on such things.

[-]JamesAndrix15y40

Reminder: We have a subreddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/lesswrong

It needs reanimation.

Related: Posting things from the sequences to appropriate subreddits or conversations is easy reddit karma, and lots of our articles have never been reddited.

0Kevin15y

I commented on this post after it conveniently showed up as #1 on my logged in reddit homepage. http://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/dgrpc/is_it_possible_to_believe_that_truth_is_relative/

[-]Paul Crowley15y40

I'm currently the only "op" on the #lesswrong IRC channel - I'm told new ops are needed. If you want to be an op, could you reply to this with your FreeNode nick? Thanks!

EDIT: added "Adelene" aka AdeleneDawner

4Relsqui15y

I said this in channel, but in case you're keeping it organized here: I'm available for this if it's useful to you to have someone is more experienced as an irc op than as an LW community member. I won't take it personally if not. ;) I'm relsqui there as here.

0Relsqui15y

I would appreciate feedback regarding the downvote here. Was the offer itself unwelcome? (If so, how can I identify invitiations I'm not welcome to in the future?) Is it merely a vote against opping me? (If so, that's very reasonable, but I don't see what the point is in penalizing me for offering.)

4wedrifid15y

There is an IRC channel? Does it have much of a following?

3Larks15y

Here's the link

1lsparrish15y

Yes, we've had some really good quality discussions there. There's 38 people logged in at the moment.

3cousin_it15y

Is there a way to read past logs? I hate missing out on interesting discussions.

0lsparrish15y

Not that I am aware of... Anyone know if there are logs?

3[anonymous]15y

There are two here but I don't know if there are more elsewhere: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Chat_Logs

3Relsqui15y

Whoever else you're going to add, I'd appreciate it if you could get around to it sooner rather than later. It's getting very tiring sitting here watching trolls spam up the place when there's no one around to do anything about it.

0Paul Crowley15y

Thanks for the prompt. Have added: * Relsqui * Boxo (Bongo) * docl (lsparrish)

2[anonymous]15y

Nick is Boxo. I'm on #lesswrong a lot.

2lsparrish15y

docl

2AdeleneDawner15y

If it's just a matter of being reachable in case something goes wrong and available to kickban trolls or whatever, I can do that. I'm Adelene, there.

0AdeleneDawner15y

I'm confused. The above post was at +2 earlier, and now it's at +1. Was it downvoted? If so, why? If someone has an objection to me being an op, I'd prefer that they actually say so, so that the issue can be dealt with (by which I mean I'll probably step down).

1jimrandomh15y

I wouldn't read much into it. It wasn't me, but I have sometimes used the policy of voting meta stuff that seems like it ought not to affect karma towards zero (upvote if negative, downvote if positive), and it's plausible that someone else might've used the same reasoning. There's also some noise in the voting due to occasional misclicks.

0AdeleneDawner15y

I suppose that makes sense, and thanks for the insight. I'd still like to hear from the downvoter, though.

0Relsqui15y

It might have been the same person who downvoted my reply--perhaps objecting to the conversation taking place here at all?--but that would contradict jimrandomh's theory, since it brought mine to -1.

[-]RobinZ15y30

How much of Wikimedia's "don't be a dick" policy do you think Less Wrong should import? I would quite frankly be happy to mirror the entire essay (with link and credit) onto Less Wrong Wiki and link to it in the FAQ in a "Comment Policy" section.

4gwern15y

None. I've never usefully employed it on Wikipedia; dicks don't realize they are dicks or they value the rules over normal editing. If dicks are not dealt with through other means, you have already lost. 'Ignore all rules' is very similar - as WP:ZEN says, "Only the use of IAR that is unnoticed is a true use of IAR."

1RobinZ15y

Referring people to DBAD is against DBAD, isn't it? I think it's a good essay - that's why I want to refer people to it.

2gwern15y

So, if it's not useful for dicks, then why are you interested? I doubt it's a useful prophylactic against becoming a dick.

2RobinZ15y

I'll defer to your greater experience.

[-]NancyLebovitz15y20

From memory: There were people who said their web connection was too slow, and they wanted to be able to read and post by email. They were blown off, but it seems plausible that we could be losing some good people that way. How hard would it be to make the site accessible by email?

7sketerpot15y

Actually, downloading Less Wrong via email would take longer on a slow connection, since the pages are sent with gzip compression over the web, which makes it a whopping 86% smaller. Put another way, getting it over email would take more than 7 times as long. Of course this may vary some from page to page, but the compression should be pretty consistently excellent when you consider the high redundancy of the HTML for handling comment boxes and so on. I took a look at Less Wrong from a browsing speed standpoint, and it's doing pretty damn well. All the static files are cached for 7 days, and if you refresh a page that hasn't changed and you have it in your browser cache, the server just says "HTTP 302 That page hasn't changed" instead of sending it all over again. My only quibble is that some of the large JavaScript files, like /static/psrs.js, are not gzipped or minified. But again, they get cached for 7 days, so you only need to download them once a week. So no, someone who's got a slow connection should not view LW over email. The web is actually faster.

1NancyLebovitz15y

My assumption was that someone who wanted to read LW by email would be reading smaller chunks-- just getting articles one at a time without the comments, not seeing the sidebar pieces unless they were specifically asked for. They'd really want a "recent comments" for specific articles.

3taw15y

Why not use RSS, it sounds perfectly designed just for that.

0gwern15y

Extremely. Need to set up a mail server and some sort of daemon service to reply - and reply with what? The output of lynx -dump on the HTML pages that make up the site? Not to mention it's implausible that email would save either time or bandwidth, considering how barebones the site is. If such people exist, they are best off being told they are idiots, to prove their cases about email being more efficient, or working on the codebase to reduce use of JavaScript (which is the principal tech that breaks textual browsers).

[-]Document15y00

I'd like to see a script for Chrome and possibly Firefox to suppress the appearance of the Recent Comments sidebar.

0wedrifid15y

Try adding it to Adbock.

0Document15y

Mental note made to try it.

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Fall 2010 Meta Thread

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