I think this part of Heroic Responsibility isn't too surprising/novel to people. Obviously the business owner has responsibility for the business. The part that's novel is more like:
If I'm some guy working in legal, and I notice this hot potato going around, and it's explicitly not my job to deal with it, I might nonetheless say "ugh, the CEO is too busy to deal with this today and it's not anyone else's job. I will deal with it." Then you go to each department head, even if you're not even a department head you're a lowly intern (say), and say "guys, I think we need to decide who's going to deal with this."
And if their ego won't let them take advice from an intern, you might also take it as your responsibility to figure out how to navigate their ego – maybe by making them feel like it was their own idea, or by threatening to escalate to the CEO if they don't get to it themselves, or by appealing to their sense of duty.
A great example of this, staying with them realm of "random Bureaucracy", I got from @Elizabeth:
E. D. Morel was a random bureaucrat at a shipping company in 1891. He noticed that his company was shipping guns and manacles into the Congo, and shipping rubber and other resources back out to Britain.
It was not Morel's job to notice that this was a bit weird.
It was not Morel's job to notice that that weirdness was a clue, and look into those clues. And then find out that what was happening was, weapons were being sent to the Congo to forcibly steal resources at gunpoint.
It was not his job to make it his mission to raise awareness of the Congo abuses and stop them.
But he did.
...
P.S. A failure mode of rationalists is to try to take Heroic responsibility for everything, esp. in a sort of angsty way that is counterproductive and exhausting. It's also a failure mode to act as if only you can possibly take Heroic responsibility, rather than trying to model the ecosystem around you and the other actors (some of whom might be Live Players who are also taking Heroic Responsibility, some of whom might be sort of local actors following normal incentives but are still, like, part of the solution)
There is nuance to when and how to do Heroic Responsibility well.
One thing filed away in my head for another post at some point: even if you're trying to be a hufflepuff, and don't really want to be in charge of other people or yourself, if you want to be a high-value hufflepuff you still need to take heroic responsibility pretty often. Like, from e.g. the business owner's perspective, the really high value employees are the ones who can take heroic responsibility for the tasks they're given and get them done whatever it takes without the business owner having to allocate further attention.
Counterpoint: quite a few business owners don't like employees taking heroic responsibility for things that they want control over.
Very often they don't understand the broken processes that they nomimally oversee, and if you get something done via heroism in spite of such sadness they won't spontaneously notice, and won't reward it, and often won't even understand that heroism even happened. Also they can easily be annoyed if you try to take credit for "things worked" by saying that they counter-factually would not have worked but for your own special heroism. Your fixing some problem might make them money, but they don't share the money, or even say thanks... so like... why bother?
Sometimes oligarchic hierarchies even directly object and stop such work in progress! I think in some of these cases this is because you'd have to go sniffing around a bit to figure out who had what formal responsibility and how they were actually using it, and many businesses have quite a bit of graft and corruption and so on. In order to understand what is broken and fix it you might accidentally find crimes, and the criminals don't like the risk of that happening, and the criminals have power, and they will use it to prevent your heroism from risking their private success. This explains a lot of how the government works too.
I tend to find "heroic responsibility" useful as a concept for explaining and predicting the cases where competence actually occurs, especially cases of supernormal competence... specifically, to predict that it happens almost exactly and only when someone controls the inputs and owns the outputs of some process they care deeply about.
When you find unusual competence, you often find someone who has been unusually abandoned, or left alone, or forced to survive in tragically weird circumstances and then rose to the occasion and gained skills thereby. Often they took responsibility because no one else could or would and because They Cared.
Seven year olds with a mom who is a junkie that never cooks often can cook meals more competently than 25 year old men who have always had a mom or girlfriend or money-for-takeout that produced food for them based on them just asking for it. The near-orphan rises to the demands due to inevitably NEEDING "heroic responsibility" for keeping him or her self fed, and the grown man does not similarly rise because "no need".
The term co-dependency is another name for the pattern of "virtue genesis from inside of tragedy" but using that phrase narrows the focus towards family situations where someone was "dependent on drugs" and calling what happens a "codependent" result for those near to the broken people deems the resulting strengths as ALSO tragic (rather than deeming the results for those near the drug abused better-because-stronger).
Sociologically, this explains a lot about LW: we tend to have pasts that included "unusually more 'orphan' issues" than normies.
But also, very smart people who lack substantial capital or political power often FEEL more orphaned because they look around and see the status quo as a collection of dumpster fires and it makes them sad and makes them want to try to actually fix it. In HP:MoR almost everyone was freaked out by the idea of putting out the stars... but really the stars burning to no end is a HUGE WASTE OF HYDROGEN. We shouldn't just let it burn pointlessly, and we only allow it now because we, as a species, are weak and stupid. In the deep future we will regret the waste.
Heroic responsibility is when you say "it doesn't matter who is allegedly in charge; it's my (mass co-op, usually) game to win, so I'm going to play it". where, even if you're in a big co-op game lobby, and everyone is trying to achieve the same shared goal (eg, win the raid, succeed at hanabi, not die from AI, get lunch, whatever), then your actions are what you have locus of control over, so it's up to you to steer as hard as you can towards the shared outcome actually occurring. This applies less to competitive games because it's more obvious there that if you want to win, you just need to go hard. It applies less to being officially in charge of commanding others, because again, relatively obvious that you need to go hard. the unusual thing is applying it to everything, seeing your whole life as a single "get all the things I desire, including the desires that care about others" game, and realizing that means that just waiting for others to dispense the right items to win will not get you best probability of winning.
And so, this post seems like a very bad example for some kinds of mind, because heroic responsibility is when you say "it doesn't matter what role I have", and so people who are blocked on imagining themselves as a business owner/leader would be put off by this instead of getting it.
And so, this post seems like a very bad example for some kinds of mind, because heroic responsibility is when you say “it doesn’t matter what role I have”, and so people who are blocked on imagining themselves as a business owner/leader would be put off by this instead of getting it.
Yeah, it’s not particularly heroic if you’re The Guy, even if it means you’re the one putting in 70-hour weeks fixing stuff that crops up to keep the business running because if you don’t fix it, nobody will, and the business will collapse.
Meanwhile, https://www.greaterwrong.com/w/heroic-responsibility — that I got to by clicking on the tag above the post that reads “Heroic Responsibility” — seems significantly clearer about the heroism aspect, and I don’t think having read HPMOR ages ago means it’s all that extra understandable compared to Joe Q. Public.
The idea/claim that heroic responsibility is important and high-value for people not in leadership positions is separate from the concept of heroic responsibility. At some point I do want a post explaining/arguing why hufflepuffs need heroic responsibility, but that post works a lot better if the argument is cleanly separated from the concept.
Is “Hufflepuff” (as a personality type) described anywhere concisely and more or less completely on LW? https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/DbdP8hD2AcKcdSsgF/project-hufflepuff-planting-the-flag seems like the closest thing to an explainer, but it seems incomplete. (https://www.greaterwrong.com/w/heroic-responsibility is exactly the sort of explainer that I’d want for Hufflepuff.)
Hufflepuff is more of a literary reference, it means "people that are more down to earth, not particularly ambitious, but, are warm and empathetic and operationally competent and reliably show up every day to do the shit that needs doing". It's not, like, a particularly natural way of carving up psychometrics, I wrote "Project Hufflepuff" because it was a shared literary reference I could easily build on at the time.
I don't think that explanation would paint the right picture in the head of someone who doesn't already have most of the picture.
A closer pointer IMO: "hufflepuff" is about being the opposite of individualistic. It's the personality type which wants to be part of a team, and stick to their role within that team, support their teammates and be supported by their teammates (including the warm and empathetic part), be reliable for their teammates, etc. It's also usually the personality type for which The Importance of Sidekicks really clicks. It's highly correlated with "submissive" in the BDSM sense, especially the aspect of wanting someone else to take the lead.
It's also a difficult personality type to talk about, because it's a little too easy for "hufflepuff" to morph into an insult about having low agency. Competent agentic hufflepuffs are really spectacularly high value - a fact that most people experienced in leadership positions will attest (Mo's comment gives several good examples). Unfortunately, the median hufflepuff... isn't that. (Indeed, a major motivation for writing up this post is that I've had in the back of my mind for several years now some posts on "rationalism for subs", which is centrally about being the high-value sort of hufflepuff.)
That is an incredibly useful definition for a term I’ve seen floating around here for years — thanks!
…could it be put somewhere moderately prominent, where people can stumble over it?
I’m kind of hoping it could be somewhere prominent in the first page of results on https://www.lesswrong.com/search?query=hufflepuff. I’m looking at https://www.lesswrong.com/sequences/oyZGWX9WkgWzEDt6M and while your comment’s definition makes the page make sense, I wouldn’t be able to independently generate your comment’s definition from “comradery, reliability, trustworthiness, willingness to do physical work, willingness to stick with things for a long time, etc.”.
There was some discussion about heroic responsibility here not too long ago. One aspect / behavior that some people (incorrectly IMO) attribute to heroic responsibility is that it is a justification for deontology violations in order to accomplish whatever goal you have.
My take is that it is more like the opposite: the thing you're describing here is mostly just ordinary high-agency behavior / executive responsibility. Where heroic responsibility comes in is that it says that you're supposed to wield that agency and level of execution continuously and at all levels of meta (using comprehensive / non-naive consequentialism) until the job is actually done. It also includes tracking and recognizing when to give up, and making that call - in your example, maybe this means stepping back and realizing that actually running the kind of ads you were trying to run are not effective or not worth the cost in the first place, or that your car dealership is headed for bankruptcy regardless of what happens with the ads. Furthermore, taking heroic responsibility means that you're obligated to do all this without stepping outside the bounds of deontology or slipping into invalid / motivated reasoning.
The entire thing about heroic responsibility, as I understand it, and as is apparent in the original HPMOR context, is that feeling responsibility for outcomes specifically when social expectations do not hold you responsible for them. I think the type of responsibility that the owner of a car ownership has for the profitability of said car dealership is called "responsibility."
I might elaborate on this more sometime, but I just want to note that the notion of heroic responsibility was immensely toxic to me in the context of a friendship where the other person was making credible threats of suicide and intensely guilt-tripping me about how it was my fault/responsibility if her life ended up ruined because I wasn't doing enough to help her.
The only way to get out of that situation was to say that no, the buck doesn't stop with me, it's your job to fix your own life and I've already helped you plenty. (And staying in the situation wasn't actually helping the other person, either.) I don't know if an alternate version of me who had never heard of heroic responsibility would actually have managed to get out of that situation any faster, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he would have.
The way I think about it is it's based on what I care about. I am in fact unwilling to do certain things to save the life of someone who is threatening suicide and blaming me, because I care more about myself, and I am fundamentally okay with caring about myself in that way. If, say, my best friend made some stupid mistake that put her at risk of great harm, I would be doing the heroic responsibility thing because I care a lot about the outcome.
It's fine to care about yourself! The principle of "I am obligated not to harm you, but not obligated to help you" is a fine one. The point of heroic responsibility is to see what I could do in cases where I do want to go all out to achieve some outcome.
It means that if a problem isn't actually going to get solved by someone else, then it's my job to make sure it gets solved, no matter who's job it is on paper.
There is a countless number of problems in the world that are not actually going to get solved, by anyone. This seems to imply that it's my job to make sure they all get solved. This seems absurd and can't be what it means, but what is the actual meaning of heroic responsibility then?
For example, does it mean that I should pick the problem to work on that has the highest EV per unit of my time, or pick the problem that I have the biggest comparative advantage in, or something like that? But then how does "heroic responsibility" differ from standard EA advice and what is "heroic" about it? (Or maybe it was more heroic and novel, at a time when there was no standard EA advice?) Anyway I'm pretty confused.
I think the difference is Heroic Responsibility doesn't mean taking every problem on your shoulders, it means taking every potential part of the problems you have taken on your shoulders.
A business manager takes Heroic Responsibility for their business, but not the whole world. You can decide to take Heroic Responsibility for the whole world, and that looks a lot like the EA playbook in many ways. At least in my interpretation Heroic Responsibility often involves crossing departments to make sure your problem gets solved, but it doesn't automatically make everyone else's problems your problems.
The version of this I would say is "Heroic responsibility is not a thing that's handed to you. It's a thing you decide on."
Every problem in the world exists. You could choose to take heroic responsbility for any of them, or, for an EA style "systematically go down the list of things that seem like they need doing and do them in order or priority." But, you don't have to! (If you choose not to take heroic responsbility for things, well, they might not get done, but that doesn't imply anything else like 'you failed in a responsibility')
What are the disagreement votes for[1], given that my comment is made of questions and a statement of confusion? What are the voters disagreeing about?
(I've seen this in the past as well, disagreement votes on my questioning comments, so figure I'd finally ask what people have in mind when're voting like this.)
2 votes totally -3 agreement, at the time of this writing
Didn’t disagree vote myself, but I think there’s a linguistic pattern of ‘just asking questions’ that is used to signal disagreement while also evading interrogation yourself. At first glance, your comment may be reading that way to others, who then hastily smash the disagree button to signal disagreement with the position they think you’re implying (even though you were really genuinely just asking questions).
I see this happen a lot, where folks mismodel someone’s epistemic state or tacking when, really, the person is just confused and trying to explicate the conditions of their confusion. In the broader world, claiming to be confused about something is a common tactic for trying to covertly convince someone of your position.
I'm guessing they are something like "I disagree that this is the right question to be asking."
For future readers of this post and other writings on heroic responsibility who feel a bit amiss, Miranda Dixon-Luinenburg's The Importance of Sidekicks may be for you (as it was for me). Think Samwise to Frodo or Robin to Batman, or if you know investing Charlie Munger to Warren Buffett, or if you like team sports Scottie Pippen to Michael Jordan. There's probably a gradient from "assistant" to "second-in-command"; I lean more towards the latter. Miranda:
I suspect that the rationality community, with its “hero” focus, drives away many people who are like me in this sense. I’ve thought about walking away from it, for basically that reason. I could stay in Ottawa and be a nurse for forty years; it would fulfil all my most basic emotional needs, and no one would try to change me. Because oh boy, have people tried to do that. It’s really hard to be someone who just wants to please others, and to be told, basically, that you’re not good enough–and that you owe it to the world to turn yourself ambitious, strategic, Slytherin.
Firstly, this is mean regardless. Secondly, it’s not true.
Samwise was important. So was Frodo, of course. But Frodo needed Samwise. Heroes need sidekicks. They can function without them, but function a lot better with them. Maybe it’s true that there aren’t enough heroes trying to save the world. But there sure as hell aren’t enough sidekicks trying to help them. And there especially aren’t enough talented, competent, awesome sidekicks.
Miranda's post clearly struck a chord as it generated 200+ comments back in the days when LW was smaller, including an endorsement and apology from Eliezer, but the one I personally found most memorable was this one because it seemed so counterintuitive:
I am male. I have high testosterone. I love competing and winning. I am ambitious and driven. I like to make a lot of money. I make a lot of money. I prefer the sidekick role.
If someone asks me "King or Prince?" I will respond with Prince every time. Hey, you can still be royalty without the weight of the world on your shoulders. I would still be a hard working Prince, too. If some asks me "Candidate or Campaign Manager?" I'll take Campaign Manager, thank you. If someone asks me "President or Chief of Staff?" well, you know the answer by now.
The more money I make and the more wisdom and experience I acquire, the more people naturally turn to me to lead. And I do it when necessary. I'm even pretty good at it. But, I don't love it. I don't require it. I don't see myself as growing more in that direction.
The same consept where independently invented by a larp organsier I know. Unfortunatly I stronly dislike the words they chose, so I will not repeat them. But it occurs to me that the consept of "final responsibility", or "the buck stops here", is so universaly usefull, that it's wierd that there isn't some more common term for it.
OK so I don't love this term. I think there's three cases:
The problem seems to be that responsibility does this language-decay (like "literally" -> "figuratively") from "outcome-based" to "rules-based." Maybe "heroic" is a strong enough support to prop up the "outcomes" version, but imagine this: Hooli rolls out its new corporate value, "heroic responsibility" to replace its old value of "ownership," and employees think they're basically bullshitting and trying to make them do more work for less pay, so they ignore it. So yeah, it's euphemism treadmill if it gets overused. Which it probably is, among us, by now.
So I don't love the term because it's more like a prop to educate, but in the long run we don't communicate better by diluting what responsibility is in the first place. Like I think we all need to understand that sometimes what we think of as the bare minimum is just failing, and what feels like going above and beyond is the bare minimum, not heroic.
For the 3rd category, it's just hard for me to think of this as "heroic."
As several commenters here have said, the business owner example isn't a great fit for heroic responsibility. The core is taking responsibility for things that aren't your job, that you are not socially expected to be responsible for, because you have decided that the thing needs to be done.
The archetypal fictional example is the hero who raises the rebellion that overthrows the Evil Empire. A normal sensible peasant whose home has just been burned doesn't do that, he just tries to survive the winter. The hero decides to do more than that, even though it's not their job and they're not (at the start of the book/movie/whatever) distinguished from all the other thousands of people in the same position. That choice is why we call them the hero.
Or, for a real-life example, a factory-owner in 1940s Germany might reasonably feel that he has quite enough to do trying to keep his business running in a war zone. It's not his job to save Jewish lives, they're not his relatives or anything. And even trying to save them could be very hazardous. Nevertheless, Oskar Schindler decided he was going save as many lives as he could anyway, and saved about 1,200 people. That's what heroic responsibility looks like.
And, the most obvious example to anyone on LessWrong: there is no social expectation that a normal citizen who is not a senior government official will decide that it's up to him to save the world from the risk that Unfriendly AI kills us all, but Eliezer Yudkowsky saw that no one else was going to do the job, and he wants the world to be saved, so he's spent his career trying.
The heroic responsibility described by OP, the determination to focus on whether [goal] is actually happening or whether people are buck-passing or symbolically pretending to do the thing, or whatever other failure mode -- all that is downstream of the heroic decision to take responsibility for [goal] in the first place.
I am reminded of the quote by Adm. Rickover, the "Father of the [American] Nuclear Navy":
“Responsibility is a unique concept... You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you... If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else. Unless you can point your finger at the man who is responsible when something goes wrong, then you have never had anyone really responsible.”
Rickover is famous for his focus on responsibility, accountability, and quality. Here is e.g. his essay on "Doing a Job".
It's worth distinguishing between epistemic and instrumental forms of heroic responsibility. Shapley values are the mathematically precise way of apportioning credit or blame for an outcome among a group of people. Heroic responsibility as a belief about one's own share of credit or blame is a dark art of rationality, since it involves explicitly deviating from the Shapley value assignment in one's beliefs about credit or blame. But taking heroic responsibility as an action, while acknowledging that you're not trying to be mathematically precise in your credit assignment, can still be useful as a way of solving coordination problems.
Reminds me of one of my favourite essays, Software engineers solve problems (Drew DeVault, 2020).
Meta: Heroic responsibility is a standard concept on LessWrong. I was surprised to find that we don't have a post explaining it to people not already deep in the cultural context, so I wrote this one.
Suppose I decide to start a business - specifically a car dealership.
One day there's a problem: we sold a car with a bad thingamabob. The customer calls up the sales department, which hands it off to the legal department, which hands it off to the garage, which can't find a replacement part so they hand it back to the legal department, which then hands it back off to the finance department, which goes back to the garage. It's a big ol' hot potato. It's not really any specific person's job to handle this sort of problem, and nobody wants to deal with it.
One of the earliest lessons of entrepreneurship is: as the business owner/manager, this sort of thing is my job. When it's not any other specific person's job, it's mine. Because if it doesn't get done, it's my business which will lose money. I can delegate it, I can make it somebody else' job, but I'm still the one responsible for that first step of taking ownership of the unowned problem.
Let's take it a step further.
Suppose I hire Bob to handle our ads. For whatever reason, some days Bob just... doesn't send out any ads. As the business owner/manager, that too is my problem.
It is my job to make sure Bob does his job. If Bob isn't doing his job, it's my job to get him to do it, or to get someone else to do it. Doesn't matter whether it's "fair", doesn't matter whether it's "Bob's fault" that the ads didn't go out. It's my business which bears the consequences, so it's my job to make sure it gets fixed. If the problem is owned by someone who will not in fact solve it, then it's my job to take over ownership of that problem.
Let's take it another step further.
Suppose, rather than Bob, I hire an ad agency to handle our ads. For whatever reason, some days the agency just... doesn't send out any ads. I look into it, and find that the agency's customer support desk hands off the problem to IT who hands it off to legal who hands it back to sales who then sends it back to IT. Another big ol' hot potato, but now it's not even in my company, so I have much less ability to control it.
But if I want to sell my cars, I need to deal with the bureaucracy of the ad agency to make those ads go out. And so, again, it is my job to sort out the problem. It is my job to chase around the ad agency's bureaucracy, sort out what's going on and how to fix it, figure out who I need to talk to and convince them to get those ads out. (Or delegate the work to someone else, and make sure that they will in fact get the ad bureaucracy to put those ads out.) Again, doesn't matter whether it's "fair" or whether it's "the ad agency's fault". If the problem is owned by an agency which will not in fact solve it, then it's my job to take over ownership of that problem, and make sure it gets solved.
That's "heroic responsilibity". It means that the buck stops with me. It means that if a problem isn't actually going to get solved by someone else, then it's my job to make sure it gets solved, no matter who's job it is on paper.