Advantages:

  • Breathes air (unlike octopi)
  • Talks (unlike octopi)
  • No IVF surgeries required (unlike mammals)
  • Very long lifespan — time to learn more
  • Highly social — good for communication
  • 50 million domestic parrots worldwide — enough to find strong correlations in genome
  • Parrot owners may have partially pretrained most domestic parrots to take an IQ test. Vocabulary size is one crude metric readily available.
  • Tiny neurons could be quite numerous in a larger skull?

Obstacles:

  • Need lots of space
  • Very long lifespan — have to find homes for all your extra parrots
  • General neediness
  • 1-4 years to reach sexual maturity
  • Only 1-3 eggs 3-6 times per year
  • Success likely would trigger backlash (moreso than octopi probably)

Overall it seems tractable and neglected. In an absurd success scenario, the genius parrots could probably get jobs, make human & parrot friends, and generally get by. I think we wouldn't know what to do with hypothetical genius octopi except maybe set them free.

I am completely outside my domain of knowledge here. What am I missing?

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niplav

Apr 07, 2024

120

An African grey parrot costs ~$2k/parrot. For a small breeding population might be ~150 individuals (fox domestication started out "with 30 male foxes and 100 vixens"). Let's assume cages cost $1k/parrot, including perches, feeding- and water-bowls. The estimated price for an avian vet is $400/parrot-year.

This page also says that African greys produce feather dust, and one therefore needs airfilters (which are advisable anyway). Let's say we need one for every 10 parrots, costing $500 each.

Let's say the whole experiment takes 50 years, which is ~7 generations. I'll assume that the number of parrots is not fluctuating due to breeding them at a constant rate.

Let's say it takes $500/parrot for feed and water (just a guess, I haven't looked this up).

We also have to buy a building to house the parrots in. 2m²/parrot at $100/m² in rural areas, plus $200k for a building housing 50 parrots each (I've guessed those numbers). Four staff perhaps (working 8 hours/day), expense at $60/staff-hour, 360 days a year.

The total cost is then 150*$2k+15*$500+150*$1k+150*50*($400+$500)+3*$200k+2*150*$100+50*360*8*4*$60=$3.632 mio.

I assume the number is going to be very similar for other (potentially more intelligent) birds like keas.

The legwork is much appreciated

Alex K. Chen (parrot)

Aug 08, 2023

70

The smartest parrots (by Michael Woodley's website) are the kea and the greater vasa parrot (he found cockatoos to be "middling" on the string-pulling task, but cockatoos seem to be more "generalist" than even african greys and seem better at tool-using). Figuring out genetic phylogeny of the "smarter parrots" vs "dumber parrots" (we've made some similar papers+YouTube videos for comparing regions of accelerated evolution in human genes vs chimpanzee brains, though the power would probably be lower since it's not super-clear which parrots are smarter)

Kea are smart enough to use touchscreens and easy enough to breed - there is a way to measure their "g-factor", as Michael Woodley is trying to do. He is also in contact with the Vienna kea lab where they do research on individual differences in kea problem-solving

[Michael Woodley believes that there is a g-factor to birds, with corvids having unusually high g-factors. I don't know if he has used the g-factor to all broad metrics, including ones that go beyond string-pulling]

What about, just culturing parrot iPSC cells into neurons? (where their growth might not be limited by the small size of the birdbrain skill). Like those of the kea? Michael Woodley purchased a kea from a Spanish breeder - moreover - there are conservation+Geochurch-based reasons to culture/better understand iPSC neurons of endangered birds (aka these papers [just by culturing iPSC neurons alone] would be publishable for many reasons even if you couldn't get the neurons to do "interesting things") + organoids make it easier for us to do less animal testing

 

[Michael Woodley  - now figure out their individual differences and genotype+do "all the metabolomic/transcriptomic+MRI" analysis on the individual kea (John Marzuff has put wild crows in MRIs) and put them in a kea biobank just as we have sequences the genomes of all remaining kakapo].

[Kea are also going through a population bottleneck due to their high death rates, though some have recently learned to breed on trees rather than on the ground and some have learned to use sticks to bait stout-traps - these may improve selection for intelligence in kea on some timescale - their small population size bottleneck may affect their rate of brain evolution in some way, depending on how much genetic variation there is in theremaining populations of kea]. Kea are SUCH a weird bird that their inherently high entropy causes them to have high death rates - but they are sufficiently easy enough to breed in zoos that complete extinction seems unlikely + some seem sufficiently resourceful enough to stay out of death-causing levels of trouble, despite their population that is still decreasing/bottleneck'ing (possibly due to mammalian predation on their young, which is fixable given that they can adapt to breeding above ground)

There is also so little research in the brain architecture of parrots (I know Suzana Herculano-Houzel  has done some, but neuron density is not enough when connectonomics is cheaper than before) that we still don't know electrophysiological or synaptic connectivity properties vary from species to species [birds being much smaller makes the problem much more tractable than doing it for many marine mammals]

[related -https://www.anl.gov/article/contrary-to-expectations-study-finds-primate-neurons-have-fewer-synapses-than-mice-in-visual-cortex, https://www.genengnews.com/news/ion-channel-density-surprisingly-different-for-human-neurons/ ]

[also figure out what percent of brain of the more resourceful parrots is devoted to the pallium]

[redo the analysis on accelerated human regions

 for parrot brains]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210902124922.htm

https://zuckermaninstitute.columbia.edu/finding-brainy-genes-make-us-human

[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-12953-4]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227464305_Rethinking_birdsong_evolution_Meta-analysis_of_the_relationship_between_song_complexity_and_reproductive_success

You do not need to change that many genes in order to induce island giganticism to a species, and while bigger brains are not necessarily smarter brains between lineages (ungulates have much larger brains than dog-like carnivores, but don't appear any smarter, probably because their neuron architecture is less efficient), WITHIN LINEAGES, brain size can matter (bigger dogs do appear to be smarter dogs - https://www.aaha.org/publications/newstat/articles/2019-02/are-big-dogs-smarter-than-small-dogs/ ). 

Other relevant references:

https://www.quora.com/Which-bird-has-the-biggest-brain/answer/Alex-K-Chen

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/eYFscbv5BJ8Fezauj/?commentId=LsgiACyug9AA6WL5e

It is argued here that a difference in neuronal density scaling is what differentiates primates from other mammals and is thus why large animals such  as elephants and whales are not more intelligent than humans despite their larger brains. Small mutations which affect neuronal density could thus lead to different humans having significantly different neuron counts (and hence scaling law IQs) despite having approximately the same gross brain volume.

(the scaling for parrots could be even better, but we just don't know yet. Worth investigating, given the stakes)

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/mar/24/scientists-discover-why-the-human-brain-is-so-big

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982218314179

(the genome of the kea has still not yet been sequenced..)

Wirthlin et al. (2018) comparison with 30 other bird species (not including corvids) revealed parrot-specific changes in gene expression that are associated with cognitive abilities in humans.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-022-01733-2

rotatingpaguro

Aug 02, 2023

20

From the vague notions I have of embryo selection by reading posts here, I expect that you could improve the parrot by an important by parrot standards amount, but not get to genius parrot without either: long timeframes, new techniques, major expense.

Initially, the genetic variations you would be selecting would mostly have independent effects, so you would not be slowed down by compromises with side effects. But I expect this linear regime to break down at some point. I have three scenarios in mind:

  1. The linear regime: each genomic variation contributes independently to metrics you care about, and in the same way in each generation of parrots.
  2. The linearized regime: like (1), but the way the variations contribute changes every few generations as you select your parrots.
  3. The nonlinear regime: at some point you can't quickly pareto-improve the parrots with embryo selection based on looking at correlations between variations and metrics. You have exhausted your "linear modifications budget".

In this framing, I consider (2) more probable, because I think evolution needs at least (2) to work, and (1) would make evolution too fast. But I'm not confident.

What happens to your plan in each scenario:

  1. You can use the genomic studies done on existing parrots to select embryos all the way up to your genius parrot race at a steady pace.
  2. You need to create a very large population of generation-locked embryo-selected parrots every once in a while and redo the genomic studies, so it's more expensive than (1) without changing time frames.
  3. You will get stuck at somewhat more intelligent parrots, and then need major scientific breakthroughs.

I wonder how cross-species-compatible animal genes are in general. Main example I've heard of is that fluorescence genes from bacteria can be pretty much inserted anywhere and just work [citation needed]. You probably couldn't give a parrot elephant ears but maybe you could do more basic tweaks like lifespan or size changes?

If you can cross-copy-paste useful stuff easily then scenario 1 is significantly upgraded

Dagon

Aug 02, 2023

-4-14

No, on two levels:

  1. Nobody is trying to breed intelligence in any creature.  It's just not a thing.
  2. There's no reason to believe that your "advantages" matter at all.  Any of them can be overcome with breeding/engineering, probably more easily than getting to human-level intelligence.  The only thing that matters in breeding is how far the target is and generation/selection latency (how fast can selected individuals reproduce).

If intelligence is your goal, and breeding is your main tool, you should probably focus on humans.  

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You ask if we could breed intelligent parrots without any explanation of why we would want to. In short, because we can doesn’t mean we should. I’m not 100% against the idea, but anyone trying this seriously needs to think about questions like:

  • At what point do the parrots get legal rights? If a private effort succeeds in breeding intelligent parrots without government buy-in, it will in effect be creating sapient people who will be legally non-persons and property. There are a lot of ways for that to go wrong.
  • ETA: presumably the researchers will want to keep controlling the parrots‘ reproduction, even as the parrots become more intelligent. What happens if the parrots have their own ideas about who to breed with? Or the rejected parrots don’t want to be sterilised? Will the parrot-breeders end up repeating some of the atrocities of the 20th century eugenics movement because they act like they’re breeding animals even once they are breeding people?
  • Is there a halfway state where they bred semi-intelligent parrots that are smarter than normal parrots but not as smart as people? (Could also be the result of a failed project.) What happens to them? At what stage does an animal become intelligent enough that keeping it as a pet is wrong? What consequences will there be if you just release the semi-intelligent parrots into the wild?
  • What protections are there if the parrot-breeding project runs out of funds or otherwise fails? Will it end up doing the equivalent of releasing a bunch of small children or mentally handicapped people into the wild where they’re ill-equipped to survive, because young intelligent parrots don’t get the legal protections granted to human children? 
  •  

If there was a really compelling reason to breed intelligent parrots, then these objections could be overcome. But I don’t get any sense from you of what that compelling reason is. “Somebody thinks it sounds cool” is a good reason to do a lot of things, but not when the consequences involve something as ethically complex as creating a sapient species.

What happens if the parrots have their own ideas about who to breed with? Or the rejected parrots don’t want to be sterilised?

It's worth noting that both of these things are basically already true, and don't require great intelligence.

Yes. But I think most of us would agree that coercively-breeding or -sterilising people is a lot worse than doing the same to animals. The point here is that intelligent parrots could be people who get treated like animals, because they would have the legal status of animals, which is obviously a very bad thing.

And if the breeding program resulted in gradual increases in intelligence with each generation, there would be no bright line where the parrots at t-minus-1 were still animals but the parrots at time t were obviously people. There would be no fire alarm to make the researchers switch over to treating them like people, getting informed consent etc. Human nature being what it is, I would expect the typical research project staff to keep rationalising why they could keep treating the parrots as animals long after the parrots had achieved sapience.

(There is separate non-trivial debate about what sapience is and where that line should be drawn and how you could tell if a given creature was sapient or not, but I’m not going down that rabbit hole right now.)

I forgot to highlight that I think parrot's general social and physical compatibility with humans — and humans' general sympathy and respect for parrots -- is probably greater than any alternative except dogs. They also can fly. People quickly report and prosecute dog fighting. I bet regular or kinda smart or very smart parrots would all do fine. 100% speculation of course.

Parrots are social animal that frequently are held without any other parrots to socialize with. That suggests that humans don't care that much about treating them according to their values.

Good point. In fact I can imagine people treating smarter parrots even worse sometimes because they would be extra annoying sometimes

head too small.

The neurons are smaller and faster to match though

The breeding process would adjust that if it was a limiting factor.

As much as I'd love to live in a world where humans have uplifted various animal species and we all live in diverse harmony with more varied minds generating wild and wonderful ideas and cultures, attempting something like this, at present, seems like a very bad idea to me. Humans-in-general have not yet figured out how to live peacefully with (and care about the well being of) each other, or to take care of the parts oft he world not directly useful to themselves. We're getting and doing better than we used to, but do we really want to bring intelligent parrots, octopods, dogs, cats, or pigs into the world and have to explain to them what we've been doing and are still doing to their wild or less smart brethren? (Side note: We often hear a similar argument applied to having children, "Who'd want to bring a kid into this world?" and I reject it in that context for a number of reasons that I don't think apply here.). Plus, think about what it would actually take for new sapients to participate meaningfully in society, and compare to the basic accommodations we still struggle to consistently provide to humans with disabilities.

I also think that even if we undertook such a project, we don't understand the genetic basis of intelligence well enough to get parrots (or other species) to a point where they could unambiguously convince humans to treat them as people instead of animals. One small corner of Spain tried to grant legal personhood to great apes, but despite some progress in animal rights legislation, no one else has gone that far even for our closest relatives. I consider my pets family, but legally they're still property. This seems like groundwork we should set out to fix before even considering embarking on any kind of uplift project. It's bad enough we'll have to figure it out for AI personhood questions, but in this case we have much better evidence on what animals need, want, and feel, and still can't bring ourselves to recognize it in law.

[-]O O9mo10

The 1-4 years to reach sexual maturity is a good thing. It lets you “iterate” faster. Unless you meant that’s too long.

Yes I meant that it is slow. Seems to be very roughly six months for dogs and octopi.