Covid vaccine safety: how correct are these allegations?

by DPiepgrass28 min read13th Jun 202181 comments

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Covid-19Ivermectin (drug)Social & Cultural Dynamics
Personal Blog

One month ago I clumsily tried to persuade my 74-year-old father that Tucker Carlson is probably wrong about Covid vaccines killing 3000 people, and if not, my father should get the vaccine anyway because he is in a high-risk group.

Well, move over lab-leak discussion, because this video is a tad more explosive: it alleges an ongoing and almost systematic censorship of information about vaccine side-effects, and it manages to do so in a way that fails to trip my BS detectors. While the LessWrong community isn't known for its expertise in vaccine science and epidemiology, it's usually pretty good about separating the true from the false, so here I am to ask for your comments. While the video is extremely long, the most controversial claims come near the beginning.

It's hosted by Bret Weinstein who (says Wikipedia) 'came to national attention during the 2017 Evergreen State College protests' and 'is among the people referred to collectively as the "intellectual dark web"'. The video description says Robert Malone is "the inventor of mRNA Vaccine technology"; he doesn't have a Wikipedia page, but he is mentioned on the page about mRNA vaccines as having 'developed a high-efficiency in-vitro and in-vivo RNA transfection system using cationic liposomes, which were used "to directly introduce RNA into whole tissues and embryos", as well as various cells types' in 1989. Finally there's Steve Kirsch, a red-tribey-sounding serial entrepreneur who mostly does tech firms but has been "researching adverse reactions to COVID vaccines". Steve frequently interrupts the other two, but at least seems very knowledgeable and well-connected (not to mention wealthy).

At first I was going to make this a 'question', but there's a lot to unpack and I think it could generate a lot of discussion, so I made it a 'post' instead.

Summary of the video's main points & discussions:

  • 3:40 Prophylactic ivermectin is about "100% effective at preventing people from contracting Covid when taken properly" (an "Argentina study" is mentioned in support of this)
  • 8:00 Bret gushes in the beginning about Steve's "article in Trial Site News". Here is a list of Steve's (seven) articles in Trial Site News. (edit: the original article was removed from there, albeit still accessible via direct link, and was later put behind a paywall with Kirsch's name removed.)
  • 11:12 Steve became interested in the issue of vaccine safety because he talked to his carpet cleaner, who said he had a "heart attack" two minutes after taking the Pfizer vaccine and was "still feeling bad about it" (18:40 he talks about these side effects, how the press ignores victims of serious side effects, and how this has cost his carpet cleaner $30,000). Meanwhile, his wife started to suffered from serious hand shaking after taking the vaccine. This was like "lightning striking twice", "impossible" if the vaccine is safe. (my thought: a 'bad batch' could explain clustering in Steve's community)
  • 12:30 Steve heard from to Byram Bridle about how, according to Japanese Government data, the spike protein generated by "the vaccine" doesn't stay in the arm like a typical vaccine, but spreads throughout the body. 14:02 The FDA knew about the biodistribution, and it's most concentrated in the ovaries (edit: this is false), though the FDA did not believe it was dangerous at the time.
  • 13:39 Dr. Malone: "The spike protein itself, we now know, is cytotoxic" (and "very dangerous", adds Bret) and Malone alerted the FDA about this risk "months and months and months ago, and we had a discussion"... "Their determination was, they didn't think that was sufficient documentation of the risk that the spike was biologically active." (edit: a least 4 fact checkers reject this)
  • 14:40 Bret: if the protein lodged in "the membrane of the cells doing the transcribing" as intended, it would be a lot less destructive; Dr. Malone agrees, and says the "prior literature that was put out by the people that developed [the vaccine]" acknowledges this risk. They did "limited, non-clinical studies" to show "it stays stuck, we engineered it to stay stuck, and they published it." But "that's generally not good enough in non-clinical data package...in the normal situation where we're not in a rush, we have some really rigorous tests that have to be done on animals, and revealing that spike gets cleaved off of expressed cells and becomes free is something that absolutely should have been known and understood well before this ever got put into humans."
  • 17:08 Dr. Malone says "cellular cytotoxicity" is actually what "really provides the protection... so you're getting CTLs against it" yada yada technical jargon.
  • 19:07 Bret says groups about vaccine side-effects are censored. Steve says "200,000 users were wiped off the planet" (Facebook?); Dr. Malone jumps in to say "the censoring has been going on for well over a year, it's well documented, it's unequivocal, and my argument is that by implementing censoring, what we're doing is making it so that signals can't be detected, people's voices can't be heard [...] we have to have full disclosure of risks, and when you censor this, you cannot have this." Steve argues that because everyone is trained to think the vaccine is safe, doctors routinely deny that any side-effects were caused by the vaccine and do not enter information in the VAERS system as they should (note: the CDC web site says that "FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS," but I don't know if there are any reporting requirements for other side-effects.)
  • 21:28 Bret was talking to everyone he encountered - Dentist, Doctor, hairdresser - and "the number of people who had a frightening story was alarmingly large. In fact, I believe it is the case that the only people who didn't have some anomalous reaction was my parents and Heather's mom" (this is the most BS-sounding thing in the video, but it could be that Bret misspoke and actually meant that "most people who are public-facing [interact with many people] in his community know someone who has had an anomalous reaction to a Covid vaccine", which is still a big allegation.)
  • 22:30 Dr. Malone says his FDA friends "in senior positions... were aware back when we were doing [RCTs] that these adverse events were occurring—many of them were oddly delayed and atypical for a vaccine trial. .... one of our assumptions here is that this is like every other vaccine...and it's not"
  • 23:57 Dr. Malone talking about his alarm about a "data package...that Canadians acquired from foya (?)", and he shared it with a "regulatory affairs professional" who found more issues, like the absence of the "reprotox" (reproductive toxicology) package and genotoxicity package. But he's heard "Pfizer has submitted a new data package in the last couple weeks, so...we have to take those data with a little bit of a grain of salt because they may have been updated"
  • 26:52 The FDA lied by telling people that no corners were cut (they used an analogy of a road in which they have straightened out the curves and reduced paperwork); informed consent is being elided. Bret: "everybody who is getting these vaccines is part of an experiment that we are running, which is actually wildly overgenerous of me to say, because in order for it to be an experiment, we would have to systematically collect data on what happened to them, and our ... system isn't so systematic ... voluntary reporting with stigma attached"
  • 28:23 Steve "did a survey on Nextdoor, and 3% had persistent troubling symptoms that haven't gone away" (Lizardman constant, one wonders? Coincidental illness? But I wonder which state these three people are in, and whether one vaccine is implicated more than the others. Pfizer and Moderna are both mentioned in the video and, for the most part, they don't clarify which vaccine(s) they are talking about.)
  • 28:47 "Nobody knows about [the VAERS system] and people aren't reporting" and "we've had reports reversed without the doctor's consent"
  • 30:32 Chart showing death reports in the VAERS system. There are less than 205 deaths every year before 2021, then 4561 for "Covid vaccines". (edit: OpenVAERS data disagrees: it shows 605 deaths after vaccinations in 2019)
  • 32:07 Steve: "Nobody can explain why they've removed reports from the VAERS system, because what we found is that the reports that were put in by people and [snaps fingers] they disappeared, so this is a conservative estimate, because what about those reports that they took out that we can't see?"
  • 32:35 Dr. Malone "this morning" called friends at the FDA about "the databases and database analysis" who said "it's chaotic, it's disorganized, they are not analyzing the data efficiently, they're understaffed, they're overwhelmed" .... "If our goal is to ensure safety, the bias has to be to assume that there is some association and then take the time to track it down, and therein lies the rub ... the FDA had the latitude to require that the vaccine sponsors/developers implement more rigorous data capture for safety ... and they made a conscious decision not to ... [after] authorization for Emergency Use Authorization [EUA] ... under an [EUA], normally ... the sponsors are still required to carefully capture safety and efficacy information; you're still an experimental product ... in this case, I'm not aware they implemented any requirements for the sponsors to capture those data." (I wonder: what about the rest of the world?)
  • 39:44 the info we have (e.g. VAERS) is almost worthless. In the vaccine cost-benefit equation, the "benefit" calculation requires you to look at the full set of alternatives; Steve talks about how elites are ignoring major results showing fluvoxamine and ivermectin "works". Steve: "This information is being suppressed, and it's unfair..." says Tess Lawrie submitted something (at 51:14 he says it's a "systematic review and meta-analysis" for ivermectin) to a journal and got it peer-reviewed and "it's probably going to be published tomorrow". He says there's been systematic review and meta-analysis - "the highest level of evidence" and Bret adds that "the evidence is overwhelming". It sounds like ivermectin has stronger evidence than fluvoxamine. But at 40:38 Steve raises my eyebrows by saying a p=0.05 result "proves that it really works" as Bret nods vigorously. Edit: Lawrie's paper was published 7 days later with 6 co-authors, concluding "Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin". I notice that Lawrie is also the Director of the "Evidence-Based Medicine Consultancy" that calls for "an immediate halt to the [Covid] vaccination programme"; notably, this document lacks cost/benefit analysis and ignores base rates (i.e. it ignores the number of adverse health events that would normally occur in a large population in the absence of any vaccines). Theresa Lawrie also founded the BIRD website (registered 2021-03-07), which "[brings] together clinicians, health researchers and patient representatives...to advocate for the use of ivermectin". Co-authors Dowswell and Fordham are affiliated with the EBMC and BIRD respectively.
  • 43:19 Dr. Malone says, at doses effective against Covid-19, ivermectin is safe. Masks are mandated under the precautionary principle despite a low level of evidence for efficacy, and yet for ivermectin all authorities are saying we can't use it despite all the evidence. Note: the FDA has published an article titled "Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19" — don't take my word for it, but its arguments are weaksauce.
  • 51:35 Steve alleges that NIH doesn't take 'saving lives' into consideration when making decisions; Dr. Malone disagrees, but before he can explain is interrupted by Bret who speaks of an "emergent phenomenon" similar to regulatory capture but without the usual hallmarks. "We are trying to grapple with what it is that's doing this. It is very tempting to imagine that there must have been a meeting in which people decide it was okay for tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, possibly millions to die needlessly given a pandemic we might be able to end if we just simply decided to do it [...] but [instead] it can be a function of the underlying drivers."
  • 56:37 Bret: "Merck...very conspicuously attacked the safety of its own drug ivermectin even though they knew from four decades of work" that it was safe, citing no evidence to the contrary. "Why? Well, it turns out they have another drug headed rapidly for an [EUA]. Well, what does the [EUA] require? It requires that there is no safe and effective therapy existing because if there was, you wouldn't take the risk of fast-forwarding this process" and also they're partnered with Johnson & Johnson to produce their vaccine. Dr. Malone suggests that the usual "rigorous terms and conditions" for disclosure of conflict of interest were not followed in this case.
  • 59:20 recap by Bret. Dr. Malone adds "my colleagues are telling me they're extremely frustrated because they can't make heads or tails out of the data"; Steve says the U.S. government commissioned a study on VAERS that estimated "there could be only 1%" of adverse events being reported, and alleges that none of the deaths in VAERS have been explained or investigated. Also says Tess Lawrie's study is self-funded, so no conflict of interest.
  • 1:07:55 Steve asks "the OpenVAERS people" what they think the true number of deaths from the vaccine is, "and they told me that of course nobody truly knows, but based on their analysis they put it around 20,000 deaths". Edit: it turns out Steve asserted on May 25 that the vaccines "likely killed over 25,800 Americans" [edit 2: omitted 'likely' in first edit, sorry]). My objections: one, if this were true, where are the lawsuits against the vaccine makers? and two, how likely is it that all vaccines are equally dangerous? Steve seems to have done nothing to try to distinguish the safety of each vaccine individually. Edit 3: the blog he indirectly linked to, by Austin Walters, retracted the claim about 25,800 deaths on June 18. Steve did not retract his claim, but (based on Wayback Machine records) on August 3 the link to the claim disappeared and most of the article went behind a paywall, after the author's name changed on July 29 from "Steve Kirsch" to "Vaccine Truth", now spelled "vaccinetruth". The profile of vaccinetruth says it "is a group of people"; Malone is one of the 5 names listed, but Kirsch is not.
  • 1:11:10 A UK document of "The Evidence-Based Medicine Consultancy Ltd" shows a high rate of adverse events and says "The MHRA now has more than enough evidence on the Yellow Card system to declare the COVID-19 vaccines unsafe for use in humans."
  • 1:14:43 Bret: "it is becoming clear to clinicians that long-haul Covid, Covid and post-vaccine syndrome are closely related." Dr. Malone: "for me the thing that's alarming is that there's no alarm."
  • 1:16:39 The V-safe system is not transparent at all, not even to FDA data analysis specialists (or 1:19:18 "responsible, qualified third parties")
  • 1:19:22 Discussion of "unprecedented" social media censorship. Also, lamentation of political polarization.
  • 1:25:30 Steve: "when I posted this to Trial Site News I had a scientific advisory board of 14...very high-powered academics, all of them resigned...saying that what I was doing was irresponsible, that it will cause vaccine hesitancy... that they didn't want to associate me any more.... I said 'I'm sorry you're resigning, but could you please point out an error, and I will correct it... and they gave me nothing... factual that was wrong with my article." (Edit: I am skeptical that Steve ever corrects claims in his previously-published articles. Surely someone told him that his headline claim about 25,800 deaths was retracted with an explanation by the person who originally made it, and I don't see how he himself could have failed to notice that his claim about ovaries was false... it's quite a blatant error.)
  • 1:28:19 Lamenting people being sent home from the ER without treatment, possibly infecting family members, being told "don't come back until your lips are blue". Steve refers to a "little practice" of "George Fareed and Bryan Tyson" having treated 6500 patients averaging 60 years old with "like zero" hospitalizations except in cases where "somebody comes up to us really late"; they use a treatment protocol with hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin and fluvoxamine. Dr Malone stresses that Steve isn't just talk, he walked the walk, having funded a fluvoxamine study at Wash U.
  • 1:33:09 Dr Malone: Some front-line doctors are doing a great job trying to understand what's going on and tinkering with ways to treat their patients.
  • 1:38:38 Dr Malone, in a discussion on perverse financial incentives, says "I lived this. I set up a company, Theric Pharmaceuticals, for Zika, and I worked closely with the DoD and developed a portfolio of drugs, repurposed drugs, many of which are now being applied to Covid because they're antivirals, okay? I went bankrupt. The investment community had zero interest because there was no way to make a buck... so I have direct personal experience validating the thesis that the financial incentives around drug repurposing are such that it doesn't get done." Steve adds that "we" called drug companies and offered to "pay for all your expenses" and they still weren't interested. "even if I had their phase-3 trial that they need, which I do have now, I still would not be able to get an [EUA] on a repurposed drug."
  • 1:40:50 Bret asks Malone about doing a quick RCT on ferrets to show safety and efficacy of ivermectin for Covid. Malone says we really need evidence in humans. He says Andy Hill tells him "there are large trials pending" but he's decided to stop releasing interim results, and results are "scheduled to come in in September". Steve says there's never been a case where a systematic review and meta-analysis has been overturned by another one, so existing evidence for ivermectin is sufficient.
  • 1:49:19 Dr Malone says a common criticism of ivermectin data is that small studies across the world on ivermectin have not been peer-reviewed, but this is because "it has become wicked hard to get anything through peer review involving repurposed drugs". Malone set up a "special edition of frontiers of pharmacology for repurposed drugs, and then it got killed" arbitrarily. He doesn't clarify this point, but adds "we've never encountered a situation like this, where it has become this difficult to get anything through peer review, and anything that has to do with repurposed drugs is...almost impossible". Malone agrees with Steve that there is a negative reporting bias where only negative reports can be published, noting that this is the opposite of the usual bias.
  • 1:52:18 Steve is frustrated at hospitals avoiding repurposed drugs, giving an anecdote (not about Covid?) of a drug treatment where "you go from lungs that are like, dark, to fully clear in 48 hours, and the physicians say 'we've never seen anything like this'... happens about 50% of the time", but he personally jumped through hoops and couldn't get El Camino hospital to prescribe this for a hospitalized acquaintance in "bad shape, on ICU". "People have gone to court to force doctors to give ivermectin and the hospital doesn't want to do it, because if the hospital gives a drug which has not been approved by the NIH, they are liable if something happens... so the hospital doesn't want to give you stuff that would save your life". "Outpatient doctors are always trying new things, so if they reported to the FDA, that's all we need... because...you can see, holy moly, the doctors that are giving the ivermectin-fluvoxamine, they've got like no hospitalization, repeatedly." Dr Malone says the idea of a "system to enable patient-reported outcomes and physician-related outcomes...is a profound statement. We have nothing like that. My friends at the FDA also came to that conclusion, and they're frustrated because it doesn't exist." Malone blames administrators/MBAs for preventing drug repurposing at hospitals, not just because of liability but also because they make more money prescribing in-patent drugs like remdesivir ("6 or 8 thousand dollars... for a treatment course") rather than older ones.
  • 2:01:41 Steve says there's another drug "which we funded the work on, which is GS 441524", an antiviral "sort of the precursor to remdesivir, and it works really really well, but it's being pursued by Victoria Yan (?) who's just an individual, [who has] raised some money privately to do this"; one patient was amazed how effective this was as treatment for her severe long-haul Covid... "and Gilead is doing nothing!" even though it's "much safer and much easier to produce".
  • 2:03:15 Bret: doctors had fewer tools in the past, but they had the virtue of acting as scientists, being able to gather more local information and being allowed to do more with that information. Modern legal and corporate structures have shut down those virtues.
  • 2:08:04: Steve argues multiple drugs should be used at once as a Covid treatment. "Treat this virus like your life depended on it" (because it might just). Dr Malone agrees and is pursuing multi-drug trials but facing "immense" challenges. In their strategy they would "learn form David Ho". "Almost all the agents you've been talking about are acting at the level of anti-inflammatories, not antivirals", because antivirals have a poor track record of treating pulmonary viral infections, because it's too hard to treat early enough, so the second phase of dangerous inflammation must be treated. But "the thought leaders who have set public strategy in the drug space have decided...to emphasize direct-acting antivirals, and they have sought to test those, most often, in a late-stage Covid environment...it doesn't work".
  • 2:14:13: Dr Malone "In my correspondence with the agency advocating for an ivermectin-containing arm in this study, I had to write...the justification for mechanism of action for ivermectin... I've never disclosed this publicly, I don't have...authorization to say so... but the truth is, that I wrote this big long section, summarized the different potential mechanisms of action of ivermectin, most of which are anti-inflammatory. The agency wrote back and said 'you have to do the studies in cell culture to prove the mechanism of action before we will allow you to proceed with the trial', and our decision was to just drop it.... and it gets to this point of another data point" (apparently he means 'another anomaly in how authorities are acting'.)
  • 2:17:34 discussion of reproductive harms begins with chart from a article by Steve. I looked up the displayed URL, which begins with a statement that "these vaccines have killed over 25,800 Americans and disabled at least 1,000,000 more", which links indirectly to a blog post by Austin G. Walters. Steve and Dr. Malone agree that the graph (for "Pfizer mRNA Vaccine BNT162") is "consistent with the primary data". It shows the concentration of a "lipid nanoparticle" that is the delivery mechanism of the vaccine, "the box in which the mRNA" is housed. The graph shows about 10 times higher concentration in the ovaries than most other organs after 48 hours. (edit: this is very misleading) "On some level it's not safe for women at all," Bret says. The high concentration in bone marrow is also worthy of study. There is no signal in the testes.
  • 2:28:30 Bret asks Malone about "the hazard of the vaccines because they create a very concentrated evolutionary push on spike protein alone, that vaccinating into a pandemic rather than in advance of a pandemic, is liable to cause the evolution of escaped mutants, and that it could...make a much worse pandemic in the end". Malone immediately responds "this isn't a theoretical, this is a real." (I will leave this argument in the video because it doesn't make sense to me; evolution doesn't have goals and shouldn't evolve its spike protein appreciably faster just because people are getting vaccines. I don't think this is meant as an anti-vax argument, though I would assume some people will use it that way.)
  • 2:31:55 Bret worries about "antibody-dependent enhancement". Normally antibodies are supposed to stick to antigens to neutralize them, but apparently there are cases where antibodies make the infection worse, and "this is why the second bout of dengue [fever] is worse". Dr. Malone responds that "all of the prior attempts to develop human coronavirus vaccines have failed due to ADE.... The [interesting thing] about the current ones is they are showing so much efficacy ... I was watching for an ADE signal, I'm not seeing it".
  • 2:39:29 Dr Malone chose to take the vaccine. He had Covid already, and only took the vaccine to meet travel requirements, after waiting for an ADE signal.
  • 2:44:29 Dr Malone: "The thing that is the hallmark of the modern FDA is the response to Thalidomide... that has guided the whole legislative structure and organizational structure of the FDA, and that's all about reproductive toxicity... and I hope that Pfizer has submitted to Peter a comprehensive genotoxicity and reproductive toxicity panel in the nonclinical studies, but even then, rats are not humans. What we've learned is that reproductive risks don't always manifest in the first generation. So I don't mean to scare, but I do mean to speak honestly and with integrity, and...if you were to ask me, 'Robert, do you know what the reproductive consequences are for this signal?' I would have to tell you 'no I don't'... if you then ask me 'has there been any examples in the past of reproductive effects of agents in female reproductive tissue that were not anticipated by the animal model testing?' I would have to say yes there is.... My position on all of this goes back to the bioethics... there has to be full and open disclosure... it's your body... the burden is on the government... to convince us... they do have an obligation... to full and open disclosure.... we as a public health community should err on the side of transparency and disclosure, and trust the American people and the people all over the world ... to make decisions for our own health... I do feel pretty strongly ... the strategy 'we're going to give out ice cream to get the kids to get vaccinated', that's just wrong." Bret adds, "it's tantamount to evil."
  • 2:49:59 Steve: "If I had known what I know today, I never would have vaccinated my three young daughters..." ... "I know one of the cabinet ministers of the Biden administration, and I brought this to his attention numerous times, and he has tried to get the attention of the proper people, and ... it doesn't register because it's against the narrative..." ... "If you want to criticize what I've written, tell me what's wrong and I'll fix it." ... "This is why people can't speak out, because the narrative is so strong..."
  • 2:56:57 Dr Malone: "This is always the case when you're at the tip of the spear. There's the parable 'don't be a pioneer; all you get is arrows in the ass'. This is a paradigm-shift problem, and the lovely thing about medicine is that we've been through multiple cycles of this. The classic one is gastric ulcers, and the bacterial basis for gastric ulcers." (hm, years ago a climate dismissive used 'ulcers' on me to justify his eternal support of the minority position on climate, but point taken.)
  • 2:58:38 Bret: "the work I did that revealed there was a flaw in the drug safety system [what flaw, Bret?], that bell still hasn't rung, that was 2002... this is par for the course except the stakes are really high here"... "you've got all of these anomalous signatures... I can make a defense for [EUAs] for a vaccine is not well-enough tested in the face of an emergency... [but] I can't make that argument when there's perfectly safe therapies that are available for us off-the-shelf, and I never could have made that argument for people that have already had Covid..." ... "we've got all these signals of...'extended regulatory capture' where regulatory capture reaches into not just regulatory agencies, it reaches into journals...universities...social media...organizations of doctors...the [WHO]... it is self-censorship, but the point is but the point is, I don't think there's any way to beat that going through the front door... what you're finding out [Steve]... is that that's not going to work because there are so many layers protecting it" [the others agree].
  • 3:01:06 Bret suggests this is the perfect opportunity for Elon Musk to gain practice saving planet Earth. "the greatest defect [in] our economic and political system [is] it can allow you to evaporate trillions of dollars of wealth in the pursuit of billions of dollars of wealth." ... "there's a bitter pill here... we can't solve the problem perfectly, we're going to have to accept something ugly... we need to buy out the interests of those who are doing it. If they've got an [EUA] for an untested, dangerous new drug and that's the reason they're thwarting our ability to talk about the solutions that are available to us, let's just fuckin' buy them out already." ... "it's a hell of a lot easier than going to Mars... [Elon] is way smart enough to look at the same data we've looked at and reach the only conclusion you could reach if you looked at it..."
  • 3:06:31 Dr Malone: "we're facing a future where pharmaceuticals and vaccines are largely produced offshore... as a consequence of this kind of kookiness" (um ... why would regulatory capture drive big pharma away?)
  • 3:08:56 Steve's solution is simpler: Elon should tweet a link to the video saying "Everybody should watch this. This is very very very important." Another solution... "everybody has a social...moral...ethical responsibility to retweet this, share it..." (wow, the longest chain letter I've ever seen) "The doctors who want to speak out, cannot, because they don't have a voice, especially if you got any kind of NIH funding... you will never see a dime... I just got a tweet yesterday from a woman who runs a support group and 'one of our members committed suicide' because no one is listening to her..."
  • 3:13:42 Dr Malone: "the irony is, the RNA story went through this same thing where it got suppressed and shut down, it was considered to be crazy talk... I'm in close contact with the long-hauler community, and like your story a member of that community recently committed suicide... if we can't allow these people to even have a voice, then they're completely disempowered... we must let these people who have no voice to at least speak to each other."

Edit: After reviewing everything, I'm seeing some signs of BS, mainly centered around Steve, who takes some rather extreme interpretations as fact (the summary above omits Steve's many interjections demonstrating this). One example is that he acts like it's crazy that everybody hasn't already accepted the greatness of ivermectin, even though the best evidence is said to be in a paper that hasn't been published yet. Also, his May 25 article (linked twice above already) has even more extreme claims than this video. And yet, Bret thinks Steve's article is great (assuming the URL at 2:17:34 is the one he gushed about in the beginning). While Dr. Malone occasionally disagrees, it's rare; for the most part he explicitly agrees, nods, or expresses no skepticism. So my main point of concern is that the three of them are very credulous about the strongest claims, and don't take seriously the possibility that they could be wrong. Plus, they show no interest in possible differences between the vaccines. Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna are both mRNA-based, but this hardly guarantees the same risks for both. But they speak about all vaccines (4 brands in 2 categories) as a singular entity, "the vaccine". 

As I noted a month ago, it is required to report deaths after vaccine administration to VAERS, so if it's more common to give a Covid vaccine to elderly and ill patients than it was to give seasonal flu vaccines to elderly and ill patients, this could explain the VAERS data. If the reporting requirement is new or more publicized, that could help explain it too. And if a vaccine is causing these deaths, where are the lawuits? Alleging "the" vaccine has killed tens of thousands of people, with no sign of having considered any alternative hypotheses, is a big red flag and if Steve proves to be incorrect, his efforts will probably cause deaths, because surely there are many elderly people like my parents who have chosen to stay unvaccinated due to messages like this. If Steve is correct, it is still important to do a cost-benefit analysis of vaccination vs no vaccination, particularly in regard to high-risk groups like my parents, and Steve did not attempt to do that either in the video or on his blog.

Also important is how little evidence is directly presented; mostly it's just alluded to. Don't extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? They seem to think that they themselves having seen some evidence is enough, so there's little need to present it to their audience. Since the number of views has topped 350,000, I encourage interested people to see if they can debunk, support or clarify some of these claims. While I suspect the claims about vaccine deaths are overstated (perhaps dramatically), I think there's a lot of common-sense reasoning in this video that will stand the test of time.

The video was deleted for 'Violating YouTube's Terms of Service'. See below for alternate links.

P.S. Here are the results of Canada's voluntary Covid-19 vaccine safety survey. It would be nice if they offered more detail on the more major side-effects, but...

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I read the start of Kirsch's article here since I'm slightly interested in vaccine skepticism and have never dug into it before. (I'm not sure if this is the article that Bret is gushing about.)

The first claim in the article is that there are many more deaths reported by VAERS. I ignored this because without some other context it seemed unsurprising and uninformative that VAERS is used more for the covid vaccine than for the flu vaccine (and the absolute numbers of deaths reported are negligible given the number of people who have taken the vaccine). The inference of "at least 20,000 deaths due to the vaccine" looks like it's probably bullshit but it would take a few minutes to establish that and so I moved on.

The next claim about harms was "82% miscarriage rate in first 20 weeks", which links here. But this number seems to be computed as "Amongst pregnancies that ended, how many were miscarriages?" The table was published in April 21 about people who were vaccinated December 14 - February 28, and it looks like there shouldn't have bee enough time for anyone to have a healthy live birth if they were vaccinated in the first 20 weeks.

The authors of the letter-to-the-editor acknowledg... (read more)

2Markus Plesner Dalin1moThere is an interesting critique of the miscarriage claims (and some of the other claims) in this Medium post: https://medium.com/rebel-wisdom/on-vaccine-safety-ivermectin-and-the-dark-horse-podcast-an-investigation-f32491d4c970

As others have said, I strongly dislike posting of 3 hour videos without any timemark or summary of the main points. This is making the community do the work of extracting the information; on top of that people will not watch most (or any) of the video before commenting, so  discussion quality will be low. 

To not be completely negative, I watched the section on "Vaccine suffers censored" (there are time marks in the description on youtube) where all three of them claim explicitly that there is no monitoring. This is clearly inaccurate, for example we know that Israel has recently reported that myocarditis might be occurring more often than expected in young men. In addition, I know that Germany has the SafeVac app to make it easier for people to report side effects after vaccination.   

there are time marks in the description on youtube
 

As timestamps go, I found these ones to be well-made and more useful than the usual:

00:00 Introductions
02:20 This must be discussed
03:13 Will herd immunity be reached?
07:58 Spike protein is very dangerous 
13:45 FDA knew it could be toxic if it didn't stay stuck
18:09 Vaccine sufferers censored
23:26 Reviewing the FDA data package 
26:41 Corners were cut
27:52 Steve looking at VAERS
32:37 Robert's friends at the FDA and the emergency use authorisation
37:38 Risk benefit and quality life years
40:18 Alternative to vaccines
44:19 Mask wearing RCT
45:28 Three anomalies around vaccines
46:05 Fluvoxamine trials
51:00 Two million dollar offer and the NIH
52:13 Robert's view of the NIH
53:00 Regulatory capture
54:41 Fauci's emails
56:30 Merck on Ivermectin
59:24 Emergent phenomenon
01:01:42 Vaccine deaths
01:03:24 Tess Lawrie's vaccine safety data
01:04:43 Difference between the gene therapy vaccines
01:06:40 Self reported deaths from vaccines
01:09:18 Adverse reactions
01:17:12 Robert on V-safe database
01:19:30 Social media censorship
01:22:20 Steve's experience with denial
01:24:17 Two teams
01:28:20 "Don't come back until your lips are blue"
01:30... (read more)

Don't know yet. I've watched about half so far. My first impressions are similar to DPiepgrass.

Typical conspiracy theorists are fairly easy to recognize. They seem to take the axiom that everything happens on purpose. They don't notice the inconsistencies in their own models, and their bald assertions often don't stand up to easy verification, if you bother to check.

These are not crazy conspiracy-theory types. (That doesn't make them right.) They understand scientific thinking, are using the biology vocabulary correctly, and are trying to use gears-level models. They understand how the vaccines work, and what might go wrong. They accept the possibility that this isn't happening on purpose, but is just a bad outcome of incentives, something we already believe happens.

Kirsch (blue shirt guy) seems less careful than the other two, and may or may not be a crackpot. This doesn't necessarily make his concerns wrong. We should still try to verify their claims. Are these guys who they say they are? Do they have valid credentials? Does the spike protein break off so it could have systemic effects? How toxic is it? The vaccine might still win a cost-benefit analysis.

I've watched IDW videos b... (read more)

Kirsch (blue shirt guy) seems less careful than the other two, and may or may not be a crackpot. 

We should still try to verify their claims. Are these guys who they say they are? Do they have valid credentials?

Without having watched the video my prior before this conversation from what Steve Kirsch did before:

Steve Kirsch was listening to Corona virus experts (experts that studied Corona viruses before the pandemic) and organizing funding clinical trials for the drugs those experts considered promising (and invested significant personal money into it). He's one of the few people who scored A+ in 2020 at fighting COVID-19 by being sensible.  

When we discuss whether he's a crackpot we should also discuss whether all those people in power who initially said masks don't work listening to think tanks instead of the most qualified experts should be considered crackpots. I think the case for Fauci being a crackpot is a lot better then for Kirsch.

Robert Malone wrote https://www.pnas.org/content/86/16/6077 which is a paper about using mRNA from 3 decades ago. When it comes to inventing mRNA vaccines there were a lot of steps on the way and it's unclear whether any single person should be considered "The Inventor" but he seemed to played part in it. 

4gilch2moHow safe is the covid vaccine? [https://medium.com/an-idea/how-safe-is-the-covid-vaccine-5a61d7d6d91a] is making me update toward Kirsch being a crackpot.
1ChristianKl2moIt's quite unclear why it makes you update about personal instead of the thesis. The vaccines likely don't do as much damage as Kirsch first claimed but that's not the same thing as he being a crackpot. The article also makes some strange leaps. It assumes that death due to suicide couldn't be due to the vaccine. Lipid nanoparticles [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006291X19317383] get used as a vehicle to transfer drugs through the blood-brain barrier so it's plausible that there are cases were the vaccine goes into the brain, a bunch of neurons expressing spike proteins, getting killed of by the immune system and that leading downstream to suicide in rare cases. There's the general idea in the post that it's vaccines vs. no vaccines. To the extend that it is it's only because the US government and the EU is not willing to buy and approve Novavax and doesn't maximize vaccinating as many people as possible by giving different options. If the government would have been willing to engage in a non-tribalistic response Bred might have increased overall vaccination at the cost of pushing it back for a few months just like he convinced more people to take COVID-19 seriously. Ideally the US would also just allow vaccines like RaDVaC but in contrast buying and approving Novavaxx would be easily possible if the NIH, CDC and FDA would be staffed by people who take the pandemic more seriously then tribal fights.
2DPiepgrass2moI haven't seen Kirsch advocate for Novavax, does he? Might U.S. officials be thinking to themselves "we bought plenty enough vaccines for everyone already, no need to buy more"? How do you conclude that the mRNA vaccines cross the blood-brain barrier? Do you have safety concerns with the J&J vaccine?
2ChristianKl2moIn the linked video, it's quite clear that both Kirsch and Bret are generally pro-vaccine and object to new vaccine technology. They do say in the video that more conventional vaccine technology could be better. They don't speak explicitely about Novavax. How do you conclude that the mRNA vaccines cross the blood-brain barrier? mRNA vaccines use lipid nanocoating. That same technology is used in other context to get drugs to cross the blood-brain barrier. Safety-wise I would expect that side-effects follow some distribution. A vaccine that's going to make a substantial portion of the people that take it too ill the next day to work is likely to have more serious bad effects then a vaccine that makes very few people to ill to work the next day. My safety concerns personally started with Stöcker having nobody of >100 people that he vaccinated being ill the next day. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RfdCJZtE7gPisjXFC/how-do-the-side-effects-of-novavax-compare-to-other-covid-19 [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RfdCJZtE7gPisjXFC/how-do-the-side-effects-of-novavax-compare-to-other-covid-19] was how I was trying to find out whether Novavaxx as a traditional platform manages to have less side-effects and it actually has. I haven't read about the J&J vaccine side-effects specifically, but even if it would have less safety issues a single dose vaccine is not going to give you the same protection against COVID-19 and that matters. Generally viral vector vaccines and the mRNA vaccine get your body to attack some of it's own cells in a way that a vaccine where the protein (or subsection) is injected doesn't. There are arguments that this is going to make the vaccine more effective as it allows the immune system to do additional things. It however comes at the cost of the vaccine having more side effects because a few of your cells get actually killed by your immune system. The results of Novavaxx suggest that this is not needed to have an effective vaccine for COVID-19.
3DPiepgrass2moI'm no biologist, but I know all kinds of things have lipid membranes (including bacteria), so I doubt that simply being lipid-covered is all you need to cross the barrier. Well, it's important to Kirsch's position. After all, J&J has 568 deaths attributed to it according to OpenVAERS even though J&J is not mRNA-based (curiously, OpenVAERS is now reporting dramatically higher death numbers for Pfizer over Moderna, whereas they were ~equal one month ago [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/7NoRcK6j2cfxjwFcr/covid-vaccine-safety-how-correct-are-these-allegations?commentId=QfFaD9AQYznFrmLLB] ). I calculated that according to the latest numbers [https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations], 3.9% of vaccines injected were J&J vaccines (which is 8% of people "fully vaccinated" since you only get one dose of J&J). Now, if my thesis is correct that the VAERS deaths are ordinary deaths that would have happened anyway, then approximately 3.9% of the deaths should be attributed to J&J. In fact, OpenVAERS (updated July 9) assigns 5.2% of deaths to J&J. Does this mean that actually there is a greater chance of death associated with non-mRNA vaccine shots? (well, the numbers are probably 2-3 weeks out of sync with each other, as the VAERS data lags behind. Perhaps this could account for the difference. Historical data is available, but not in an easy-to-read form. So I used the Wayback Machine instead, and found that ... er, 3.8% of vaccine shots had been J&J on July 1. No significant difference.) The same sort of hypothesis can be applied to non-death VAERS reports, of course, but I leave that analysis for someone else who cares enough to do it. Perhaps... but if I'm right, Novavax would end up getting VAERS death reports at roughly the same rate as other vaccines. If most people who are reluctant to take a vaccine are (like my father) getting their beliefs from people like Kirsch who harp on VAERS, Novavax might not end up being perceived as safer even if it is. So
3ChristianKl2moWhen it comes to VEARS my main hypothesis is that VEARS used to be pretty bad at actually tracking side effects. One of the key arguments for it being bad is that if you look at history only a minute amount of the side effects that you would expect given what happens in clinical trials end up in VEARS. It's likely that some people who are responsible for VEARS thought that it's very important that it's good at picking up on side-effects given how we deployed the vaccines and the increased amount of VEARS cases is simply because the system was improved to get doctors to report cases more often. Unfortunately, the sphere of people who are interested in making that argument is quite small given that it's about admitting past flaws in vaccine safety.
2ChristianKl2moI don't think that Kirsch is as focused on VAERS as you assume. Kirsch is a VC for whom strong opinions-loosely held is central. That's why he could easily switch from running an NGO that has vaccination as part of it's mission to speaking up against the vaccines. The article in The Atlantic won't convince your dad but "we should use Novavaxx instead of mRNA vaccines" is a contrarian position that's open to be argued especially when it's an actual choice for people to take. It won't be argued by real antivaxxers like Mercola but there's no reason for it not to be argued by Chris Martenson, Steve Kirsch or Bret Weinstein. It also makes a good story for Tucker (for Tucker it doesn't even need to be true to make a good story).
2DPiepgrass21hSo, my dad is continuing to refuse vaccines, and while he's not naming any of the people he trusts on this issue, one of his claims is about "infertility" and the only original source of infertility claims I'm aware of is Steve Kirsch. So I'd like to ask for your perspective on this. Kirsch was praised by Bret Weinstein for continuing to update his anti-vax article as he found new information. And yet, Kirsch's headline claim about the danger of vaccines - the very first claim he makes, the claim that the vaccines "likely killed over 25,800 Americans" - was retracted on June 18 [https://austingwalters.com/covid19-vaccine-risks/] by the person to whom Kirsch linked as evidence of that claim, Austin Walters. Walters also explained why his claim was wrong. But Kirsch didn't change the beginning of his article at all. So Kirsch was supposedly keeping his article up-to-date, but he made an exception for the 25,800 deaths claim (and then, of course, he removed his name from the article and other names including Robert Malone appeared instead.) Also, Steve said this: "Biodistribution of lipid nanoparticles which carry the mRNA show that the ovaries get the highest concentration" ... but this is clearly untrue [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/7NoRcK6j2cfxjwFcr/covid-vaccine-safety-how-correct-are-these-allegations?commentId=f97bJXwj2M5toGDvt] . My question is, does this reduce the credibility you attach to Steve Kirsch and Robert Malone? If not, why not? Also, do you know of any other original (not parroted) sources of infertility claims other than Steve Kirsch? (On the other hand, if it does reduce their credibility... Yuri Deigin says he was a friend of Bret Weinstein before all of this started, and says that he told Bret about how Steve was misreporting the data re: ovaries (among other things). Do you know if Bret has ever backpedaled about this claim or otherwise distanced himself from Steve Kirsch? And if not, does it speak to Bret's credibility?)
2ChristianKl8hEven if what Steve is saying about the vaccines producing problems in the ovaries which can cause infertility would be true, that shouldn't matter to your dad because he doesn't have ovaries. I haven't heard any claims for male infertility. My view of Kirsch is at the moment is that he strongly pattern matches and this seems to both result in fast detection of issues and also in overmatching and seeing patterns where there are none. Here there's more concentration in the ovaries then in most other tissues according to the EMA documents but saying it's the highest concentration is overstating it. Generally, I haven't meet anyone who had clear negative consequences from the vaccine in the way Kirsch describes so I find the thesis that the side effects are so common falsified.
1DPiepgrass4hI take that as a no. That is, you judge his specific hypotheses but refrain from judging his credibility.
2ChristianKl1hCredibility is a quite complex thing. There's a tradeoff between taking no action and requiring a lot of evidence and taking action based on too little evidence. Besides the lying one of the problems with people in the establishment like Fauci is that they require a lot of evidence and as a result we still haven't updated our vaccines to the delta spike protein. Kirsch is one the other hand of that spectrum. Taking a lot of bets and not needing all to payoff is likely what makes him a good venture capitalist. I do think it's worthwhile to listen to people on all parts of that spectrum.
1Alexey Lapitsky2moThe core point is that even J&J is not a traditional vaccine. It's also genetic (DNA-based) with a classic non-LNP delivery mechanism using an adenovirus. From what I understand, it penetrates a different subset of cells (using ACE receptors, afaik) that get killed by the immune system in the same way as with mRNA-vaccines.
1DPiepgrass2moYes, particularly this bit: I have been criticizing Kirsch (and Lawrie) for not considering more than one hypothesis that could explain the data. But it's likely to be much worse: that people are going to him with better explanations and he chooses to ignore them. Classic denier: one who does not respond to evidence (unless confirmatory). But charitably, maybe nobody's going to him with good arguments. Like, I randomly listened to a little of that 5-hour debate with Avi. At 36:11 Steve asks Avi what caused those deaths in VAERS and Avi's first thought is to suggest that maybe there's lots of false reports, based on just one example of a false report? ugh. (I looked at 37 reports elsewhere in this thread and didn't suspect any of them were simply made up. I did wonder if sometimes multiple reports sometimes happened for the same person, but didn't try to check.) Edit: or extra charitably, Steve's totally found good answers to the issues I raised and I just never happened to see evidence of that.
7greylag3mo”Social media trying to tackle disinformation with blunt instruments and causing collateral damage” seems to me very much true. Censorship of information about side-effects…? Well, it seems like “the covid vaccine makes you feel terrible 24-48 hours afterwards for some people” seems like common knowledge; I’m sure I’ve been advised after the flu vaccine to stay still & nearby for ten minutes to check I don’t react badly to it. More pointedly, the low-but-detectable-risk-of-blood-clots problems with the adenovirus vaccines resulted in rollout of those vaccines being paused/delayed by some countries for certain demographic groups, and while there was controversy about what was justified (pause vaccine rollout? Only give those vaccines to older people at less risk of blood clots?), “systematic censorship” is not an accurate description of what was happening.
7gilch3moInformed consent is important. I don't recall being informed about accumulation in bone marrow or ovaries, or the risk of myocarditis [https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html] or the risk of brain fog at the time I got my shots. Maybe some of these side-effects weren't known at the time. But that the vaccine didn't stay in the muscle and therefore might have systemic effects was news to me, and they're asserting that this was known at the time. I've been experiencing persistent palpitations recently. It had not occurred to me that this could be due to the vaccine until I watched this video. I believed the mainstream line that the vaccines are safe and effective. I still think they're effective. The evidence for that is very strong. I'm less confident that they're safe now. Confirmation bias is a serious concern when reactions are this delayed though. People develop health issues all the time for all sorts of reasons. If they're primed to think the vaccine could have long-term side effects, they'd probably attribute all sorts of things to the vaccine that are mere coincidence. So individual anecdotes are pretty weak evidence, but this noisy data is still worth collecting to see if any patterns emerge. On the other hand, if we've all been primed to think the vaccines are safe (and we have been), then we won't make the connection at all and don't even report the data, and this is one of the main concerns from the video. The issue has become too politicized for society to be objective about it. Legitimate concerns get you labeled as an antivaxxer.
5DPiepgrass3moYes, as I said in my letter to my dad: elderly people already die often (big number nationally), so if vaccines are being given to millions of elderly people, we should expect a tiny percentage to die soon afterward from natural causes. A key thing to look at is whether it used to be rare (and in 2021 became common) to give the vaccines to ill elderly people, which could explain the increase in VAERS. Still, why are blood clots given lots of attention but not VAERS reports? And if the FDA is so understaffed, why?
2ChristianKl3moBlood clots are not independent from VEARS reports. VEARS reports are how the FDA gets the data about the Blood clots. The VEARS reports give them reports about many different kinds of issues and if there are many issues to look into and they are understaffed it's reasonable to put more attention on the blood clots issue then other issues given that blood clots in the brain are a serious issue.
2DPiepgrass3moHow is it more reasonable to focus on VAERS blood clots than VAERS deaths?
4Lukas_Gloor3moOne obvious candidate explanation: For the reason you explain in the letter to your dad – probably those deaths were roughly what you'd expect among the vaccinated demographic if the vaccine is benign. By contrast, the specific blood clots are generally rare.
2ChristianKl3moBecause you rather focus on investigating the thing that causes the most deaths then investigating deaths in general.

While I agree that there is insufficient attention paid to ivermectin as a possible treatment in Western nations, I have seen far too much shoddy and conflicting data in the studies that are brought forward proposing it as prophylaxis and think the hype is a spiral that has amplified nonsense into prominence.  People LOVE the idea of a panacea.  While there is quite possibly something interesting going on there it has been hyped to the moon and back in a way it should not be.

The animal data I have seen that I trust the most (since it avoids many of the pitfalls of observational trials, and few people are doing randomized trials that are actually good and not shoddy as hell after chloroquine sucked all the oxygen out of the room) suggests there could be something there, but not in a way that would block epidemics.  Animals that are infected and then dosed have no difference in viral levels but recover their sense of smell significantly faster and when you take tissue samples the levels of inflammatory and tissue-destroying signaling molecules are lower while the ones that are more classically associated with antiviral responses are higher.  Leans me towards the i... (read more)

4mngreen3moMy reading on ivermectin is that the concentrations required to be effective outside of in vitro would be extremely high. For what it's worth, here are a few articles. Science is an evolving understanding of complex systems. Time and testing will tell. "Laboratory studies using monkey cells in a test tube (as opposed to clinical studies in human patients) have shown ivermectin can shut down the replication of SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, within 24-48 hours of exposure to the drug. Ivermectin is thought to inhibit the virus by preventing viral proteins moving in and out of the host cell’s nucleus, which is essential for replication of the coronavirus. The problem is this process requires very high concentrations of ivermectin – well above the recommended dose for humans. This means ivermectin’s virus-killing powers would be unlikely to be harnessed inside the human body." (there are several linked references from within the article as well) https://theconversation.com/amp/ivermectin-is-still-not-a-miracle-cure-for-covid-19-despite-what-you-may-have-read-144569 [https://theconversation.com/amp/ivermectin-is-still-not-a-miracle-cure-for-covid-19-despite-what-you-may-have-read-144569] This next link is excellent - it delves into the molecular science w/out becoming incomprehensibly dense and there are three updates appended to the end showing promise. https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/05/11/whats-up-with-ivermectin [https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/05/11/whats-up-with-ivermectin] Another very useful article: https://www.isglobal.org/en/healthisglobal/-/custom-blog-portlet/questions-and-answers-about-ivermectin-and-covid-19/2877257/0 [https://www.isglobal.org/en/healthisglobal/-/custom-blog-portlet/questions-and-answers-about-ivermectin-and-covid-19/2877257/0] mng
4CellBioGuy3moThe mechanisms stopping growth in vitro at obscene concentrations I agree are probably not operative in vivo, or at the very best not in the same way. However there are other bits of data regarding the drug as an immunomodulator in other viral infections, and this virus in particular has much of its pathogenesis having to do with badly regulated immune reactions. Basically I am at the awkward position where I think the risk to potential reward ratio is favorable and that good research is needed while thinking most of the existing research is super shoddy.
2Dentin3moOne other thing to consider is that even small differences in replication rate might actually matter. Consider that it takes a week for the virus to really ramp up, and that's a large number of doubling periods. Even just getting a larger or smaller initial dose seems linked to how sick people get. Even a few percent difference may allow the immune system to stay ahead in the arms race, and result in a nonlinear change in death rate. Note that I'm not saying this happens; I'm saying that because this is an exponential growth attacker (the virus) versus and exponential growth responder (the immune system), even small differences in growth rates might have a large impact.

Could you make a digest of their main points? That might help get everybody on the same page to start the discussion.

Edit: Ok, TBH, I just don't feel like watching a 3-hour long video ATM. But others might prefer to have the original debate in full rather than a digest.

Edit 2: Thanks for listing noteworthy points. I'm in the process of passively listening to the video bit by bit.

Okay, I'll review the video again and add a list of controversial and interesting bits.

So, I decided to head on over to OpenVAERS, do some searches and look at some reports. Here are the number of results for a few queries for deaths in 2021:

5997 results in 2021 (all vaccines)
5869 results in 2021 with Vax Name "covid19"

3607 results in 2021 for 65+ (all vaccines)
3543 results in 2021 for 65+ with Vax Name "covid19"
1673 results in 2021 for 65+ with Vax Name "moderna"
1691 results in 2021 for 65+ with Vax Name "pfizer"
165 results in 2021 for 65+ with Vax Name "janssen" (Johnson & Johnson)
1061 results in 2021 for <65 (all vaccines)

1023 results in 2021 for <65 with Vax Name "covid19"
406 results in 2021 for <65 with Vax Name "pfizer"
458 results in 2021 for <65 with Vax Name "moderna"

214 results in 2021 for <45 with Vax Name "covid19"
101 results in 2021 for <35 with Vax Name "covid19"
37 results in 2021 for <25 with Vax Name "covid19"

Edit: for comparison, the average annual death rate in the United States in 2018 and 2019 was 719 per 100,000 or 0.719%. Since the population is about 328 million, the expected number of deaths in a normal year is about 2,358,000, and in a typical week, 45,228. Now, 51.56% of the population has received at least one vaccin... (read more)

5DPiepgrass3moDetailed summaries: SUICIDES - 958443 - self inflicted gun shot wound - 1243487 - VAX DATE: 13 April 2021 | DATEDIED: 21 April 2021 - Patient Committed Suicide with a firearm. - 1307657 Death by suicide [4 days after taking vaccination] - 1349598 VAX DATE: 19 April 2021 | ONSET DATE: 19 April 2021 | DATEDIED: 23 April 2021 - he was COVID positive... patient did not have COVID prior to vaccination [sic].... patient...received the first dose of...PFIZER...on 29Mar2021... headache, sore arm, lethargic.... 19Apr2021, the patient received the second dose, and the patient was sick that day, headache/tired, diarrhea. On Tuesday (20Apr2021), the patient slept all day, headache, chills, diarrhea, no appetite, said he didn't feel right.... Friday (23Apr2021) diarrhea - took his own life by hanging himself. The patient did not have history or signs of depression, anxiety, or mental illness. OTHER REPORTS WITH INDICATIONS THAT THE DEATH IS PROBABLY NOT VACCINE-RELATED - 1166062 - DATEDIED: 20 March 2021 - patient received second dose of Pfizer vaccine on March 17, 2020 while at work... her 5 month old breastfed infant developed a rash and within 24 hours was inconsolable...developed a fever. Patient brought baby to local ER... passed away. Diagnosis of TTP. [It sounds like the baby did NOT receive a Covid vaccine] - 1347547 VAX DATE: 15 April 2021 | ONSET DATE: 16 April 2021 | DATEDIED: 21 April 2021 - The injury that led to the death occurred within 1 day of the decedent receiving the vaccine DEATHS MORE THAN 14 DAYS AFTER VACCINE - 1076949 - VAX DATE: 29 January 2021 - Patient admitted on 2/21/21 and died in hospital on 2/22/2021. Patient had a significant, lifelong underlying medical condition. - 1074788 - [This report appears to be for a fetus that died more than a month after the mother received the vaccine] - 1372120 - VAX DATE: 01 May 2021 | ONSET DATE: 01 June 2021 | DATEDIED: 01 June 2021 - Pt called 911 for shortness of breath...Patient with sob, saying she can not
2Rafael Harth3moHow does this square with OpenVaers's claim [https://www.openvaers.com/] that only about 1% of injuries are reported? Without knowing the reporting rate, it's difficult to interpret the data. If we take the 1% and 5869 numbers at face value, it implies that the vaccines killed about 560.000 people, whereas if we assume 100% reporting rate, it looks like they're an amazing preventer of unrelated causes of death. Is there any reasonable way to estimate what % to use?
1DPiepgrass3moWell, Google led me to the HHS VAERS FAQ which says Covid vaccines aren't explicitly mentioned in the PDF so the final list of reporting requirements seems to apply ("Any new vaccine recommended by the [CDC] for routine administration to children"): Interesting, this isn't as clear as the CDC's statement that "FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death..." Now, if the FDA/CDC/HHS sent memos/bulletins/checklists to hospitals/clinics, these might be the sorts of instructions that front-line staff pay the most attention to. But, don't know how to see those.
2DPiepgrass3moAn odd fact: search results on OpenVAERS disagree with this claim: 4561 deaths for "covid vaccines", <210 for every year before 2021It says there were 4561 deaths for "covid vaccines" as of May 28 and less than 210 every year before 2021. But as of June 17, OpenVAERS disagrees (note: OpenVAERS says its data is "through June 4, 2021"): In OpenVAERS there is an upward trend since 2012 that peaks at 605 deaths in 2019. So while the covid death counter has increased 29% in this dataset (possibly due to the passage of time), it also shows 234% more deaths in 2019. Not sure what to make of this.
1ndr3moThy disagree, but in which direction? The second chart seem to report numbers higher than the first chart but I'm not sure they are about the same data. What's your read? Can you put some links for the second graph source?
2DPiepgrass3moI constructed the second graph manually, by recording the number of results of 22 queries at OpenVAERS [https://www.openvaers.com/]. OpenVAERS (which I learned about through Steve K) says it provides the same data [https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html] as the government.

The whole video is painful to watch, it gets more bearable after the 2:11 mark when Kirsch (the blue shirt guy) slows a bit down.

The following is a recap of what I've understood them saying and some unpacking. I'm not educated in anything medical and still have a bunch of open question. If you spot any error or know the answer to these questions please let me know.

TL;DW

They seem to be making 3 main points:

  1. Ivermectin prevents and treats SARS-CoV-2. It's extremely safe, common and cheap.
  2. Vaccines were rushed. Long term adverse reactions are unknown, some adverse reactions are now noticeable and worrying.
  3. Pharmaceutical companies have economical incentives to push for new drugs/vaccines and against out of patents ones. These incentives are skewing media reporting, social media policies and basic research to push pro-vaccine content, and to censor warnings on vaccine safety or potentially safer drug alternatives that might result in vaccines losing their Emergency Use Authorization (EUA).

Bret Weinstein's idea to solve the issue is to find some deep-pocketed sense-making individual or set of people who can buy the pharmaceutical companies out. He thinks that would kill the economi... (read more)

4dachamian3moAs I mentioned in my post, blog posts by David Gorski systematically address most of the issues you've highlighted ( https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-is-the-new-hydroxychloroquine-take-2/ [https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-is-the-new-hydroxychloroquine-take-2/] ) Ivermectin: "The mechanisms of action of Ivermectin against SARS-CoV-2:" this paper is explicitly critiqued, not least the sensational claim of a 1 in 23 trillion chance of the positive effect being random. (this isn't how statistical analysis works, apparently...) There's also criticism of the Bryant and Lawrie paper. On twitter recently Malone has acknowledged his mistake having been presented with evidence of dosing analysis by Pfizer ( https://twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1406555309200531458 [https://twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1406555309200531458] ) The key paper that shows cytotoxicty from the spike protein is with regards to the spike protein found in sars-cov-2, according to Gorski and the papers he cites the s-protein created via the mrna vaccines is modified to attach to cells in the muscle rather than freely circulating. (Its since been found that there are circulating levels of spike protein post mrna vaccine but in extremely small quantities, far lower than you'd get via an infection, and that the clearance of the protein is as expected for the proper functioning of the vaccine. ( https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/06/15/the-novavax-vaccine-data-and-spike-proteins-in-general [https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/06/15/the-novavax-vaccine-data-and-spike-proteins-in-general] ) ) The Japanese biodistribution data is also debunked, the study is in rats, the percentage build up in the ovaries is exceptionally small and studies have been completed looking specifically at ovarian function post mrna vaccine with no issues found. The Japanese data is at the center of Byram Bridle's claims, which is systematically debunked here https://by
6DPiepgrass3moI may not have time to read through all of that, but thanks for the links. I quickly learned some new things by following a few links there + googling around. Most notably, some key evidence presented by Steve K that took center stage in the video, both evidence of the dangers of "the vaccines" and evidence of the effectiveness of ivermectin, comes from groups led by the same person, Theresa Lawrie. 1. Lawrie apparently founded a web site for ivermectin advocacy [https://bird-group.org] (registered March 7, 2021) after presenting evidence on Ivermectin's efficacy on January 13 (to "13 clinicians [https://bird-group.org/who-are-bird/]" and 7 others) 2. Lawrie is the director of a group of 4 people calling itself "The Evidence-Based Medicine Consultancy" that called for [https://b3d2650e-e929-4448-a527-4eeb59304c7f.filesusr.com/ugd/593c4f_74a5f6d8ea484e15ac25e87099615bc2.pdf] "an immediate halt to the [Covid] vaccination programme" on June 9 3. Lawrie published the meta-analysis Steve was raving about (with 6 co-authors), which found "Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin" (published June 17 but, obviously, completed earlier) Now, is Lawrie just one of those productivity superheroes vying for a Nobel prize? Or is there something suspicious about too much evidence and advocacy coming from the same person? What makes me the most suspicious is that 1. the anti-vaccine document performs no cost/benefit analysis before concluding that all three vaccines are too dangerous to use. 2. it includes no analysis of base rates (the number of adverse health events that would normally occur in a large population in the absence of any vaccines). 3. Edit 1: seriously, what are the chances that all three vaccines are both dangerous and equally so? Has that ever happened in history? I think not. (4 different vaccines are implicitly demonized by the video
1ndr3moMalone/Weinstein say they seem to have minor differences, at least in mechanism/effect. Their point being that if you get the S p circulating you're in trouble. All the three seem to produce that effect. Well done, this is a very well put and good point. I don't know what drove the craze on blood clot (very few instances too?) against AZ and J&J. It's weirdly inconsistent with the reaction on myocarditis for mRNA vaccines, they only (reasonably?) halted on young population? It looks like a different standard than for AZ/J&J.
1DPiepgrass3moWell, Moderna and Pfizer's are both mRNA-based, but presumably different in some ways because they were made by different teams (and I thought I saw Bret or Dr. Malone say he would have preferred Pfizer over Moderna, though it's not in my summary). But AstraZeneca and J&J are "adenovirus vector vaccines", using chimpanzee adenovirus ChAdOx1 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChAdOx1] and serotype 26 (HAdV-D26) respectively; the latter was "under investigation as [a] protective platform against HIV, Zika, RSV infections and are in Phase-III clinical trials for Ebola" in early 2019 [https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/580076v1.full]. Now, adenovirus vector technology [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_vector_vaccine] is pretty new. Even so, it would be an impressive coincidence if the risks were both substantial and the same for a ChAdOx1-based vaccine, a HAdV-D26-based vaccine and both RNA vaccines. Sure, they all use the spike protein in some way — probably it's necessary for the immune system to recognize the spike protein — but (i) eventually our bodies will encounter the spikes, either via SARS-Cov-2 or via vaccine, and I've seen no one make a case that a live, replicating virus is safer, and (ii) the evidence/argument for the protein itself being dangerous hasn't been made clear in any of the stuff I've seen. But my main point is the seeming lack of interest from Lawrie, Dowswell, Kirsch et al. in the question of relative safety, because this is a known failure mode of anti-vaxxers all the way back to the Wakefield study. That infamous paper apparently linked the MMR vaccine to autism, yet many anti-vaxxers acted like there was some fully general link between all vaccines and autism.
2ndr3moWhat's an actual criticism of that paper from that article? That meta-studies are garbage-in-garbage-out? That's weak at best, the author seems to have spent no time in spot checking any of the papers included to check whether this actually happened. ... by a nameless "Concerned Scientist". I don't want to play ranking authorities, but it's obvious someone is mad at Bridle enough to steal his name to put up that website. It's hard to read that website assuming good faith, at least Bridle seems courageous enough to argue his points in the open under his own name, like any "Scientist" should do, especially "Concerned" ones. Regarding the spike protein toxicity, my understanding is that the claim is a bit more nuanced. A recent tweet from Malone [https://twitter.com/rwmalonemd/status/1406777926855671811] says: And then links to this Salk [https://www.salk.edu/news-release/the-novel-coronavirus-spike-protein-plays-additional-key-role-in-illness/] article. Basically claiming that we know SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is cytotoxic and unless proven otherwise it's fair to assume the version expressed by vaccines is similarly cytotoxic. All the "fact-checker" linked from that website are "we have no evidence that [...]", and this is very much a case in which absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
7philovivero3moOne of the main take-aways I got from the video is that the censorship around this issue has gotten out of hand. I wonder why the video is gone? One hopes not due to censorship. Did the speakers have a change of mind, and remove the video?
6Devin Brenton3moIt was removed for violating youtube's "terms" and the channel was given a strike. Same thing happened to another video on the channel about the research and data on Ivermectin.
1DPiepgrass3moMeh. It won't do much to harm the popularity of the video's message, since Tucker Carlson was promoting "Covid vaccines dangerous!" a more than month before this video arrived. And since the video was at 350K views last I checked, I'd guess it reached 500,000 by the time it was taken down. While "Covid vaccines killed 20,000 people!" doesn't have good evidence behind it and, I think, will get people killed, I'm not sure taking down the video is actually helpful. Many viewers will notice that the censorship they were warned about has come to pass. Distrust of Big Tech, the MSM, and Covid vaccines will be bolstered. But if you're YouTube, what do you do? Get into the debunking business, post a response video? Nah—there's no profit in it. Deleting is easy, and they don't even have to give a clear reason.

This is an interview with Edward Mills, who is running trials on repurposed drugs. 
https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/whats-the-deal-with-ivermectin-and-covid/

He seems more measured in his assessment of Ivermectin. Ultimately, he thinks there will be a small positive treatment effect, but not one that merits calling it a "miracle drug." 

Contrast that with Bret Weinstein or Pierre Kory, who think this will end the pandemic. 

 

From another comment:

When we discuss whether he's a crackpot we should also discuss whether all those people in power who initially said masks don't work listening to think tanks instead of the most qualified experts should be considered crackpots. I think the case for Fauci being a crackpot is a lot better then for Kirsch.

From You:

Don't extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? They seem to think that they themselves having seen some evidence is enough, so there's little need to present it to their audience.

They seem to be advocating for the ty... (read more)

2mngreen3moWithout relying on mass media, i've seen far too many simulations and demonstrations (various camera and imaging types) and far too many detailed articles specifying particle size, mechanisms of viral distribution, viral load and the like to convince me that there is sufficient efficacy to warrant their use. Yes, this includes discussions with people I know that work or who have worked in front-line medical positions. Yes, how the wearer uses / fits a mask, touches / adjusts it, disposes / reuses, which type of masks and how much other protocols are followed will all influence the degree of mask effectiveness. Yes, there are no large double-blind, peer-reviewed studies to support mask use (non that I could find anyway). I'm not a "chicken little". I do believe there has been far too much conflation by some of prudence to mean cowardice, panic or being overwrought. Re: the video ... I found far too many instances of where the other two were putting words into Malone's mouth, or were quick to over-interpret something he said. I really would love for someone who understands the deep bioscience to take a very hard look at their ppl virology claims. At face value, the assertions would be very concerning, and while I would prefer for them to be wrong, I would rather see analysis as to whether they are or not. Pseudoscience is based on a whole lot of very very credible information and takes a sudden turn that is virtually impossible for non-specialists to unravel.

One of the Ivermectin-supporting studies included in Lawrie's metastudy has been retracted due to glaring issues. This study (Elgazzar et al 2020) was the 5th largest study on Ivermectin by sample size (N=200) listed in the Bryant & Lawrie metastudy. Based on Figure 3 it looks like Elgazzar et al was one of only two studies that favored ivermectin without including the no-benefit line in the confidence interval.

Meanwhile, 6 other studies appeared to favor ivermectin but included the no-benefit line in their confidence interval, 1 study favored the... (read more)

1ndr2moSee a reproduction of Lawrie's metastudy here [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/EAnLQLZeCreiFBHN8/how-do-the-ivermectin-meta-reviews-come-to-so-different?commentId=PPHZTEBqkgDjACWHe] . Even without both of those constributions the result doesn't meaningfully change.
  • 28:47 "Nobody knows about [the VAERS system] and people aren't reporting" and "we've had reports reversed without the doctor's consent"

I don't buy this. I got a hand out about the VAERS system, created and account and reported everything that happened (and I did have weird side effects). 

1ndr3moNobody is very likely an exaggeration, I suspect is severely under used, but I have no idea about the reversals. Did you report to VAERS yourself or via your doctor? How do you know whether your report made it through?
2CraigMichael3moI might have been mistaken. I was thinking VARES was part of vSafe, but they may be different. I did for sure report it to vSafe.

I am a big, long time fan of Bret Weinstein, was impressed by the stoicism and apparent knowledge of Malone, and alarmed at the extreme claims Kirsch made. I've been following the ivermectin story over the past month or so, listening also to Dr John Campbell's seemingly sober and impartial analysis. I'd reached the point where I believed there was financially motivated suppression of ivermectin research, believed that it likely had generic antiviral properties (via "blocking" the ACE2 receptor), believed that adverse reactions to mRNA vaccines were under-r... (read more)

2drobbs3moThe problem is, Bret is one of the few non-conspiracy adjacent vanguards fighting against the established "science". Because of his prior experiences being driven off campus by mob politics, he's become "anti-fragile" so to speak, willing to fight because he has found success by being true to his set of values & principles, which is admirable. But, the burden should not fall on him, we should have a system that welcomes open debate. To me, this is obvious. Truth wins through proving something to be true, not through conjecture, mass manipulation, and isolating anyone with a hint of skepticism. The dangers are obvious, America is in ruins from this rapacious empire, we have a seriously destructive society. It's impossible to not blame media for the state of the country (who are heavily influenced by various governmental & business actors). That's what is so angering to me about this entire situation, never in the history of the world has there ever been a propaganda machine quite like the United States, its the most powerful element to the American empire. Its been able to hold the veneer of political credibility through "democracy & openness", when its really a lightly managed democracy, whose leadership class will use fear & deception to rule. Its not a "right-left" thing either, there is no doubt a class of oligarchs who move between the two parties seamlessly (ahem, Bloomberg). They are all entirely open about their desire to control humanity with vaccine passports, digital currency run by the IMF out of Switzerland, and an entirely new surveillance economy in the West to compete against China's surveillance economy. I've slowly become totally distrustful of any established narrative, because the longer you live, the more obvious it becomes just how powerful the propaganda machine in America is. They have managed to lie the country into endless wars, lied the country into a mass surveillance program with the Patriot Act, allowed the Financial Crisis to play out

I've watched the whole thing now, at 2x speed. We've also got your summary with time index.

There are a lot of points in there, and we could try to verify each one. Anything particularly salient that you'd like us to focus on first?

To call the vaccines harmful on net, we have to compare that to the alternatives. Even if we accept (for the sake of argument) that the vaccine is toxic, presumably an actual infection has the potential to be much worse, since it produces the same spike protein. In my view, a lot of this case hinges on the availability of an effe... (read more)

2Mateusz Bagiński3moAs far as I understand, they claim think that since spike proteins in the actual virus particles are embedded in the particle (as opposed to "free"/"detached" when produced after getting the vaccine), they do not accumulate in the tissues, at least not to the same extent. Possibly, after a virus particle has been destroyed, some of its spike proteins circulate freely (or attached to some smaller segments of the virion) and then can get into tissues and accumulate.
1DPiepgrass3moThe thing I wonder most is how we can work out whether or not the VAERS deaths can be mostly attributed to natural causes, and secondarily, whether there's some way to tell if there is a strong underreporting of deaths (contrary to FDA regs) as Steve alleges (and, says Steve, OpenVAERS).
1ndr3moThat is a brilliant question. Data from Israel and UK (both high vaccination rates) should reveal useful, but I do wonder how much data is required to make that claim. In the UK (ONS [https://www.ons.gov.uk/datasets/weekly-deaths-age-sex/editions/covid-19/versions/35] ) 1.7 males died for each dead female in the 15-45 age bucket. It's 2.3 in the 20-25 age bucket. This suggests female (young especially) are less prone to be badly affected, but it says nothing of other fertility-related adverse reactions. Regarding Ivermectin, see my top level reply [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/7NoRcK6j2cfxjwFcr/covid-vaccine-safety-how-correct-are-these-allegations?commentId=hym8RTNWfyvnntHzG] . Also from the FLCCC website, it looks like there is still no data about taking IVM during pregnancy.

I stumbled across the Better Skeptics "Ground Truth Challenge" which offered prize money for identifying false statements in this and three other related podcasts, judged by three referees including our own ciphergoth.

Results are here.

3DPiepgrass1moThis site puts the burden of proof on critics to prove that statements by the anti-vax leaders are false. I think this is problematic because most of the claims coming out of the mouths of Weinstein, Kirsch, etc. are... 1. unfalsifiable claims (e.g. "the [VAERS] reports were put in by people and [snaps fingers] they disappeared") 2. speculation ("vaccinating into a pandemic rather than in advance of a pandemic, is liable to cause the evolution of escaped mutants, and that it could...make a much worse pandemic in the end"*) 3. vague motte-and-baily type claims (e.g. "the spike protein is dangerous"), whose goalpost is unclear so that whether the claim is falsified is very much in the eye of the beholder. 4. difficult or impossible to prove false on a budget less than the reward amount of $100, especially as lots of the claims do not identify any source they are based on. Also, the fact that 123 out of the 126 submissions were unsuccessful suggests that the judges were very strict in their judgements. I can't tell what reasoning they used to reject 123 of the entries; most of the links away from the result page are dead links that just say "File is in owner's trash". Edit: in fact there is [https://www.betterskeptics.com/ground-truth-challenge-the-rules/] a category called "Unsupported claim" which seems to have a lower burden of proof (reward: $50); still, somehow 98% of submissions were unsuccessful. Also, the official rules limit submissions to four specific podcast episodes; they don't accept challenges to source material such as Steve's blog, and I didn't initially realize this so I did challenge Steve's blog here. But let's consider, for example, Steve's claim that "these vaccines have likely killed over 25,800 Americans", which links to Walters, who explicitly admits that his claim about 25,800 deaths was incorrect. Does this prove Steve's claim is false under these rules? Maybe not, because Steve says he confirmed it "3 dif

The claim that the concentration of LNP (lipid nanoparticles) is highest in the ovaries after 48 hours appears to be not only false, but a "pants on fire" kind of lie: the linked source shows the concentration as being 259 times higher at the injection site, and 170 times higher in the liver.

The chart showing the concentration as being highest in the ovaries simply leaves out the data for the injection site, for the liver, and for the spleen (which has over 10x higher concentration than the ovaries).

Edit: I had been investigating the claim about ovaries on... (read more)

This is the video, right? You could link to that instead of the removed youtube link.

Yuri Deigin recently did a point-by-point takedown on Rebel Wisdom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwzfnZfo-rU

Bret's thesis rests on two pillars: the mRNA vaccines are dangerous and Ivermectin is a safer alternative. If either of these aren't true, then vaccination is the better option.

According to Yuri, basically all of the important claims are false. Neither pillar holds. The case on Dark Horse for the dangers of the vaccine and the safety and efficacy of Ivermectin is misleading at best. It requires cherry-picking studies of poor quality, and then misr... (read more)

Sam Harris [who was also counted in the IDW originally] responded to this (as well as vaccine hesitancy in general) in a recent podcast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jQfNzk_CFk

Sam's main point seems to be that even if we steelman the claims against the mRNA vaccines, it's still a clear-cut choice when you do a cost-benefit analysis because the risks from COVID are so much higher than from (mRNA) vaccines. But the vaccines are still obviously safe and effective and maybe Bret is confused. Also, Sam still considers Bret a friend.

DarkHorse Podcast reply: h... (read more)

"And if a vaccine is causing these deaths, where are the lawuits?"

Vaccine manufacturers are actually exempt from such lawsuits. 

1DPiepgrass2mo[Citation needed [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/7NoRcK6j2cfxjwFcr/covid-vaccine-safety-how-correct-are-these-allegations?commentId=FQqfvnbQwhwyw4CXs] ]

'If this were true, where are the lawsuits against the vaccine makers?'

Surely they've been shielded from liability so there won't be any.

3DPiepgrass3moThis is possibly outdated, but I saw a publication by "National Research Council (US) Division of Health Promotion and Disease Prevention" from 1985 stating that [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK216813/] "A manufacturer who produces and sells a defective vaccine that creates a risk of significant injury to the recipient is liable to any person injured by that defect under the principles stated in section 402A of the Restatement of Torts. This is thought to be the law in every American jurisdiction".
3TAG3moThroughout the world?
2DPiepgrass3moIf that's true (??), I guess lawsuits would be directed at the FDA instead. It'd be shocking if everybody involved had immunity (against lawsuits, I mean).
1philovivero3moWhether or not you agree with the people who were concerned about the USA 2020 election irregularities, one thing you absolutely can conclude is that an entire class of people can have their lawsuits ignored with "lack of standing," if there is any political will. This goes all the way to the Supreme Court. Those who aren't happy with the vaccines largely overlap with that previous group who were summarily kicked out of the judicial system. I predict there will be no lawsuits, whether or not millions of people desire there to be.
1DPiepgrass3moI think you're saying that a Supreme Court with two-thirds Republican appointees won't give popular Republican ideas a fair shake, and that the concept of "standing" has been corrupted by "political will". Political will in the judicial branch? How does this work exactly?
[+][comment deleted]3mo 2