This is plausibly good advice, but none of it makes the case for social media algorithms not sucking in the way I care about (and which I think is what most people intuitively will read the title as saying): having a net societal effect towards social media addiction, polarization, and outrage.
Edited this response. Previous version didn't convey all of what I meant and felt vague to me upon re-reading it.
Yeah, the main thing people care about at a far/large scale isn't what their feeds are like. And that's a big part of any discourse about social media. But wrt. the near/small scale, I think people mainly care about "why am I getting so much slop/engagement bait?" That latter perspective is what I was focused on.
Nonetheless, many people must've read the title and (reasonably) assumed I meant the far/large scale. So the title was misleading. My bad.
my antidote for this is to consume a lot of media from the opposite side. and spend a lot of time in "enemy" territory trying to find the wisdom of people i disagree with. consider the trained up ideologies to be a form of compression over true people's desires. what you call polarization, i call specialization.
i also think this is a very uh news thinkpeice eternal-september way of looking at social media. by and large interaction on social media is wholesome entertainment and commerce. that people get in vitriolic fights is just the nature of the agora. i really don't take "disinformation" seriously either. in a state of nature everyone is wrong about everything and only on modern internet do people regularly encounter whole other lives and worldviews.
it is good and right for you lesswrongers to continue doin research and longposting here. this place is something special. i feel like twitter is kind of the street epistemology of rationalism. could be good. could get you hurt. not for everyone. not every place should be like it.
the addiction is real tho.
Seems like a lot of work and a lot of side effects just to induce it to go way overboard and do a crappy job of showing me something maybe a bit closer to what I want. How about if I just don't visit the site unless I want something specific, and then I use search to find it?
I spend very little effort optimizing my feed and I get to see a bunch of interesting stuff, have fun conversations with friends, and make new ones.
As an addendum to the post, I note that I unlocked a lot of fun on twitter when I realized I can treat it as a messaging platform for my friends, or basically anyone I want to talk to. This realization happened after meeting @Croissanthology and seeing his (its?) fearless use of @ and total rejection of algorithmically curated feeds.
still way worse than just giving me a vector embedding ui that shows me everything recent and lets me browse it. I used to do this, it's how I got the videos that I used to share here, but a while ago I switched to only using youtube in incognito mode and restarting incognito if the recommendations seem to know who I am particularly much. seems to result in a lot less time spent on youtube.
wait can you explain what you mean by vector embedding UI in this context? How did you do that?
thing that uses a dimensionality reduction to lay out some dots and put labels on em, so I can see all the stuff organized by category. invited you to a recent one I was playing with on gh. i've had some fun with nomic but have some intense persistent frustrations that make me less inclined to use it (it's missing things I find obvious).
i was accidentally ambiguous in my previous comment - I used to do what op describes, it's how I got the videos I've shared. but, I didn't feel rushed to correct it, because I actually did also do vector embed then dimred on YT videos, and that was also part of how I found cool videos to share here. it just happens to not be what i intended to describe.
vector embed UIs are imo the best when they're persistent, which is achieved with a parametric embedding.
I've been thinking LW really really needs one so I've started tinkering to make it happen, but as usual I'm a bit slower than ideal-me due to distractability and suboptimal prioritization.
Are the vector embeds, like, part of a browser extension that is tracking everything you click on yourself or what?
Downloading it? Normal data getting. List of things to download, automatically download em all. Took some effort to set up
Maybe it’s not the algorithm that sucks, but the interface - specifically that it conflates algorithm training with content consumption. Perhaps the main page should not update on your clicks, just show content. A separate interface should be used to pick content you want to see more or less of.
The interfaces do suck, yeah. You could design something more conducive to flourishing in a weekend.
I have been thinking in the 'Pavlov-ing my Algorithm' mindset for years, and there is a failure state I would like to warn about.
It is possible for an algorithm to pick up on you trying to train it, then purposely show you some bad things, so that you feel the need to stick around longer, so that you can train it properly, all the while, you see incremental progress in what the algorithm is showing you.
I have failed in this way, the training becomes a meta game atop the algorithm, and for a certain type of person, that meta game can be more engaging than the content itself.
facebook knows that some people hide posts to "archive" them, not because they don't like them. i wonder if the platform you are using thinks this, and maybe you have to ignore bad content with your mind and scroll past rather than ignoring it with your hands.
A thing I'd like in most of my feeds is "different modes", i.e. "thoughtful highbrow mode" and "give me the embrassing dopamine hits" mode.
This advice is correct, and is of a similar valence (though lesser magnitude) of the observation that you could safely use heroin
literally what is getting downloaded? I would expect most major sites with feeds to not let you download their content en mass.
Hell yeah. I loved reading this.
I plan to continue basically not consuming content from any of these platforms, tho.
A reminder for people who are unhappy with the current state of the Internet: you have the option of just using it less.
Nice I like it.
A random thing here as well is to have specific accounts focused on different algorithms. (The only annoying part is when you watch a gaming video on your well-trained research youtube but that's a skill issue.)
You can delete Youtube videos from your watch history if you don't want it to be used for recommendations. I do this. It would be nice to have an easier way to switch through preference profiles than switching accounts though, that seems like a hassle.
People keep complaining about how their twitter feed is infested with politics or relationship discourse, how Youtube keeps showing them Anime Girl Butts: A 5 Hour Review, or Facebook serves them up AI generated slop that clueless old-people upvote. They bemoan the tyranny of the Algorithm and talk about how social media companies are Out To Get You. That said Algorithm is fiendishly clever. That said Algorithm only cares about what grabs your attention, not what you want. That said Algorithm sucks.
To which I say: Maybe you suck. Have you ever thought about that, eh, Lesswrong? No, seriously, consider it. Maybe this is just a skill issue? Maybe you've put your locus of control into FAANG's hands and are wondering where things went wrong? Maybe you don't know how to interface with algorithms? Maybe you don't focus on what you want to see more of?
The answer is yes.
[1]And you're in luck, because I've invested literally any effort at all into using algorithms. Which, shockingly, is enough to not only beat back the trash infesting the rest of your feeds, but remove it all together.
I'll give you an example. You know what was the last big issue I had with my feed? Too much art. I was literally inundated by a sea of beautiful things. That's it.
You can outwit social media algorithms. They are little ML systems that generalize poorly, suffer from catastrophic forgetting, and only give results as good as the data they get. They're dumber than my friend's sister's friend's dog. And like a dog, you can train them if you try, literally at all.
OK, time to stop insulting you and get to what you should do.
After cultivating a habit of telling the algorithm what you want to see more of, you may find it starts to become intuitive.
"Oh, I shouldn't click on this politics thread, that will just show me more rage-bait."
"Wait, I don't actually like this guy's tweets. In fact, they're low signal. Muted."
"Click on profile. Like 8/10 tweets. Follow."
At which point, you too will feel a sense of distance when people complain about how terrible their "For You" feed is.
With thanks to norvid_studies, kit, imit, @Croissanthology, @Tomás B., @lsusr, tassilo and Taylor G. Lunt for giving feedback.
A friend notes that this post reminds them of a common "two-lens view of poverty, diet and weight, ..., that is: for any person, ordinal personal factors always 'cause' why they're somewhere in the distribution of people. but at the same time 'the economy' or 'the food environment' move the entire distribution. and in secular fashion will raise or lower everyone independent of the individual treading water. that's how i'd think about 'algorithms' funneling and translating attention into semi stable loops. that said there is plenty of room to blame the user." This is a good point, and as AI gets better, I expect the skills required to interface with SM algorithms to become too high for anyone unless we're watched over by machines of loving grace. Even now for some poor souls, learning to train social media algorithms is too great a challenge. Frankly, we were dealt a bad hand with the social media landscape we got. Yet it is still possible to win with a bad hand. This article is not for the poor souls who can not. It is for you, dear reader. You are strong enough to win.
For a case study in pavlovian conditioning, see @lsusr's post Training My Friend To Cook. (His friend was glad of it.)
A fellow traveller on Twitter tells me that my advice basically doesn't work for Instagram as its algorithm is much harder to train. I'm going to stick my neck out and say "skill issue", but he may well be right. It wouldn't shock me if some algorithms are more inclined to slop.
Of course, the optimal amount of control of your feed is not 100%. You can, and should, somtimes use the tools available to you to engage in digital social life at the expense of confusing the algorithm.