I've been wondering how much evidential value the rise of Bitcoin offers for the success of a basement-style FAI project. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to participate on LW recently but has anyone else thought in this direction? (Sorry, this isn't directly related to the OP but I figure more interested people will see it here than in open thread.)
this is the first I've heard anyone suggest that Satoshi was unaware of Szabo's Bit Gold. What makes you say that?
I think if he had been aware, he would have cited Szabo in his paper, like he did with b-money. And yes, Satoshi learned about b-money from Adam Back. Here's part of Satoshi's email to me:
I was very interested to read your b-money page. I'm getting ready to release a paper that expands on your ideas into a complete working system. Adam Back (hashcash.org) noticed the similarities and pointed me to your site.
Presumably Wei is referring to how the Bitcoin codebase appeared to emerge fully-formed, from out of nowhere, with no obvious precipitating discoveries or breakthroughs; and even now in 2013, perhaps 5 years after the first mentions of Bitcoin, Nakamoto's pseudonymity remains intact: we do not know who Nakamoto is, where he worked or lived, what his training might be, what affiliations he has, what he is doing now, and having spent a bit of time over the last week investigating all of Nakamoto's traces and looking at previous investigations like The New Yorker's, this condition seems likely to persist*. (Unless of course Wei is Nakamoto, for which there's not terrible evidence, in which case he knows all that but the evidential value is still there for us.)
Its subsequent uptake may have vaguely startup-like characteristics, but that is because the Bitcoin codebase is not sapient or intelligent and cannot act on its own...
* I think Nakamoto is probably not Japanese (Austrian libertarianism having zero exponents in Japan, basically, as makes sense given their own deflationary currency and deflationary spiral, and the complete absence of any Japaneseness in his writings) but beyond th...
Bitcoin seems more relevant than Craigslist, PayPal, or other tech startups because it involved major technical and conceptual/philosophical advances on the existing state of the art, and these advances didn't originate from nor was likely funded/supported by academia, government or industry. Also, its social impact seems larger - if Craigslist or PayPal didn't exist, something essentially identical would have been created very soon anyway, but if Bitcoin didn't exist, another Bitcoin may not have been created for another decade, and/or may have been created with very different characteristics, for example it might have been coded with a monetary policy that emphasized price stability instead of a fixed supply of money.
I would consider Bitcoin to have failed with regard to its monetary policy (because the policy causes high price volatility which imposes a heavy cost on its users, who have to either take undesirable risks or engage in costly hedging in order to use the currency). (This may have been partially my fault because when Satoshi wrote to me asking for comments on his draft paper, I never got back to him. Otherwise perhaps I could have dissuaded him (or them) from the &quo...
That's a problem because then BTC is a perfect investment which always grows at exactly the same rate as the global economy. So it gives you the exactly average return on investment with zero volatility. So it seems like a near-perfect store of value and people will want to hold it rather than spend it. This decreases velocity which causes deflation and value that increases apparently even faster than the total global economy. This makes Bitcoin apparently an even better investment, until the volatility or expected volatility from the huge stores of unused Bitcoins outweighs its apparent returns on investment, and note that financial markets are apparently unusually bad at expecting future volatility to be greater than present volatility; people try to time bubbles instead. This is bad for Bitcoin because of the inevitable crash followed by hyperinflation. And it's bad for the global economy because your currency is deflating and any given bank would rather hold Bitcoins, on average, than make loans; and then the inevitable crash is also bad. That's a nutshell version of a longer story.
Does it even matter just so long as the code is released, it works, and it solves problems?
Yes. It tells us information about currently unknown or uncertain variables. Having the source code and seeing that it works by no means screens off any inferences from its origin, any more than reading carefully a paper on smoking should make you not care that it was sponsored by the tobacco industry.
In the spirit of 'name three examples', here are 4 off the top of my head:
backdoors
No. You're not getting it. This is about information, not your vague issues of 'I feel this is a large enough danger to worry about or I can come up with some vague ways to limit the fallout'. The question was: does learning the government did Bitcoin change our beliefs about anything else at all? The answer remains, for all you've said: yes, it does.
a) Future abuses via Satoshi having too many Bitcoin or from a Bitcoin elite can be countered right here and right now by supporting alt-cryptocurrencies.
These tactics are not guaranteed to work, therefore on learning the government did Bitcoin you will be more worried about abuse then before; Satoshi as technoidealist is far less likely to abuse or use the mined coins than Satoshi as calculated government project and public manipulation.
b) Backdoors should be assumed to be in Bitcoin already.
No, they shouldn't. Only some software is ever backdoored, which means you should make no 'assumptions'. If we learn Bitcoin was done by the government, do any of our beliefs change at all? Yes, the odds of backdooring go up since the US government has, as a matter of historical record, advocated backdoors and sought to build in backdoors ...
Volatility. This is the natural result of deflation. As scarcity increases, people buy out of the speculative belief that value will rise forever. They fear to spend because really, who wants to have bought a million dollar pizza? Eventually, when enough of the value is due solely to this belief in future growth, people abruptly begin to sell, and the bubble bursts.
Consider the Great Deflation. US prices sagged from 1870-1890 due to a slow increase in the supply of money (gold) and a rapid increase in total economic production due to the 2nd Industrial Revolution. Prices weren't volatile, they just steadily dropped... by about 2% per year.
This may well parallel the situation Bitcoin will face as it matures, as the supply of new bitcoins slowly increases and the Bitcoin economy grows. Before that can happen, the markets will have to go through a process of discovering things like how widely it will be used for transactions, how governments will respond, etc.
It certainly isn't inevitable that deflation causes volatility. The cause of Bitcoin volatility is not deflation, it's caused by speculation under conditions of extreme uncertainty.The uncertainty will be resolved eventually, one way or another.
I am only an interested amateur, and my doubt is related to potential legal and regulatory actions rather than to volatility. As ThrustVectoring said, if a government decides to legislate BTC out of existence, or severely limit its usefulness, the game may be over quickly. It does not matter whether the security is crackable or what tricks the exchanges want to use, if the US govt prohibits them from transacting bitcoins anonymously and convinces other governments to follow suit. Then all you will have left is an illegal underground economy. At best this would be like betting on cocaine appreciation, at worst BTC will be supplanted by something more controlled and eventually disappear into some niche underground thing. So, in my mind the main question is the odds of a sweeping regulatory action and its potential severity, balanced against the potential appreciation due to the factors you mentioned, should it survive unmolested. I have no idea how to estimate these odds.
...Here is the general scenario that I think holds more probability mass than bitcoin-as-a-traditional-currency, and yet works as a fairly realistic alternative to bitcoin-as-a-flop:
- Bitcoin will fall out of circulation as a currency because of its relative volatility.
- Nonetheless, alternate currencies will be built into the blockchain.
- These alternate currencies will be designed for stability, instead of deflation.
- Mechanisms for trading alternate currencies for bitcoins will be part of the protocol.
- Rather than a currency, bitcoin plays a role as a scarce
The title of the OP suggests to me this should be a good thread in which to get to the heart of bitcoin. Please skip the rest of this comment and any subthread it produces if you disagree.
As a child of the 1970s in the US, I don't put much store in any currencies. My conclusions, living through the high inflation, were to own stuff. Inflation after all is a statement about the exchange rate between stuff and money. The point of money is that you can trade it for stuff. It has seemed to me that I don't need to be particularly long or short money, I n...
Thanks for writing this! I'd like to hear some second and third opinions. What are economists and other domain experts saying about Bitcoin?
I don't know if this is typical, but I recently a professional trader stated in an email to me that he knew very little about Bitcoin and basically had no idea what to think of it. This may hint that the lack of interest isn't based on certainty that bitcoin will flop, but simply on not knowing how to treat it and sticking to markets where they do have reasonably well-understood ways of making a profit, since exposure to risk is a limited resource.
Financial laws prevent hedge funds and investment banks from investing in "alternative assets" like Bitcoin unless they are formed into a licensed financial product. Individuals do not have to abide by these finance regulations.
Even so, Reuters reports that "Workers at Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs in London and New York have been visiting online Bitcoin exchanges as often as 30 times a day, according to documents seen by Reuters." It seems that there is interest, but they are constrained in multiple ways that individuals are not. For example, the total value of all mined Bitcoins is on the order of ~$1 Billion--the entire value of the currency is trivial to them.
The domain experts in making money are hedge funds, investment banks, etc. They haven't put much money into Bitcoins, so if you think its a good investment you have to sincerely believe you are substantially better informed or more rational than they are, which seems unlikely.
Consider:
You are walking down the street, and Warren Buffet is walking a few feet in front of you. You notice a five dollar bill on the sidewalk. Warren Buffet looks down, then keeps walking past it. Do you stop to pick it up? Maybe, maybe not. But the fact that Buffet knows more about making money is only one factor in the decision. You have different opportunity costs, different discount rates, etc.
They haven't put much money into bitcoins, so if you think its a good investment you have to sincerely believe you are substantially better informed or more rational than they are, which seems unlikely.
Well, or that it's not really worth their time to speculate on Bitcoin. The current market capitalization of Bitcoin is tiny compared to the markets that they're interested in- and so even though there's lots of price fluctuation, that doesn't mean there's lots of money to be made out of riding that wave. The highest daily trade volume was $34M; that's a thousandth of a normal day on the NYSE.
The only good argument I've heard for buying bitcoin is "there's a X% chance that one bitcoin will be worth 1/21M of the total cash savings supply of the world in the long term," which is not the sort of thing hedge funds are interested in.
One thing that bugs me about deflationary criticism is that it seems very asymmetric. People and institutions are able to adjust their future expectations for inflationary conditions but not deflationary ones. "People don't want to spend in a deflationary environment" also flies in the face of talking about the price crashing, usually just a paragraph later. Clearly people have price levels at which they do wish to consume. That this level is different in an inflationary environment from a deflationary one is not a death knell.
a) When I can earn Bitcoins I will be more likely to spend them. Dollars as inflationary but I'm not likely to spend the last dollar in my pocket on something I don't actually need. Bitcoins are inflationary but I'm not likely to spend my last Bitcoin on something I don't really need. It's currently very hard to earn a significant amount of Bitcoins so no one is ready to spend them and at the same time there aren't many places to spend them either. So while the deflation is good we need to be able to replace every Bitcoin we spent to make it spendable like...
Bitcoin's long-term value, in my opinion, is near-zero. It's not anonymous currency, but pseudonymous. If you set up a network of number-only Swiss bank accounts and use it to conduct business illegal in the US, the US government will eventually link Swiss account numbers to people and get everyone in trouble. Analogously, the US government will eventually force currency exchanges to link people to bitcoins as a prerequisite for operating. Foreign bitcoin exchanges complicate this somewhat, but it merely slows the US government down.
Drug dealers (etc) have...
It's not anonymous currency, but pseudonymous.
I realize this is one of the current meta-contrarian points about Bitcoin contrarianism, but it's still wrong: the pseudonymity is only partial and doesn't matter:
#bitcoin-otc
); hawala still exists despite substantial US interest and effort into crackdownsDeflation. Bitcoin will never be more than 21 million coins strong due to the production rate going down by half every 4 years. That implies that it will always deflate, i.e. there will be less available to buy as time goes on.
I am very skeptical of this argument. Bitcoin has the ability to become a "perfect" numeraire currency, in the sense that it has no intrinsic value (unlike gold, which people can use for jewelry and such). The idea of "deflation" for a numeraire currency is meaningless. The value of the numeraire currency is ju...
Bitcoins themselves are limited, but a new Bitcoin protocol can be introduced which includes existing bitcoins and adds new ones, and these would prevent the overall supply from being limited.
Trying to outsmart the market in the short term with nothing but your own human instincts and powers of induction will probably cost you even more money because Markets are anti-inductive.
Let's not quote EY as gospel on this topic. There are a lot of people who say lots of things about the market, and unless something is supported by theorems or solid empirical data rather than handwaving, I'm reluctant to adopt it as a quotable principle. And FWIW, I have a very smart friend who makes a ton of money playing the stock market and part of what he does i...
I had trouble following the Alice and Bob scenario. In particular, step 3 says:
The network knows that there are 100 times as many dollars as bitcoin.
How does it know that -- is it because Alice withdrew 100 dollars from her wallet for each bitcoin she put into it? Could she have withdrawn a different amount? Does she have to have had more than 10k dollars in the wallet to start with, or did her bitcoins get converted to dollars?
Should you probably donate a bitcoin to your future self?
Bitcoin has been in the news a bit lately. In case anyone hasn't been following recent events, its price hit $266 per coin, toppled to $50, and then climbed back to a rate which has been between $80 and $140.
This goes to show its high volatility at the present time, which means that any individual trade you make will be something of a gamble with a noisy, hard-to-predict outcome. You could be buying in right before a boom or a bust. Buying and then selling at random intervals will probably cost you more money than you make, due to transaction fees. Trying to outsmart the market in the short term with nothing but your own human instincts and powers of induction will probably cost you even more money because Markets are anti-inductive. The most realistic way of making much money with bitcoin -- sans owning your own exchange, having skill and resources for serious technical analysis, a faster-than-usual trading bot, or fantastic luck -- is if you can determine that the current price is very poorly calibrated relative to its future value, and if you buy and hold very long-term.
Market swings constitute a psychological attack, assuming you know and care about them, so employing the buy-and-hold strategy can be more difficult than it looks. However, as it happens, you can render bitcoins almost purely unspendable (i.e. impossible to transfer via the network) for a finite period of time as a technical matter. You could for example create a brainwallet based on a lengthy memorized passphrase with a random value appended to it. The larger that appended value, the (exponentially) greater the amount of processing time needs to be spent to find out what it contains. Having access to the memorized passphrase gives you the overwhelming advantage over a brute force attacker, whereas the appended random value immunizes it against dictionary attacks. (Todo: Find or write a program for this. Prove it works, and move some of my bitcoin holdings to a wallet requiring a day or more to unlock.)
Early adopters with moderate crypto skills could thus have a distinct advantage compared to the average investor and realistically hope to beat the market on that basis if mere human psychology and resistance against short term panic-selling is the fundamental constraint. So that's one consideration that could play to our advantage. Assuming, that is, that bitcoin is worth taking seriously to begin with, and not just a matter of geeky fun.
The question that matters for that consideration (the one that differentiates long term speculation on bitcoin from various speculative bubbles in gold, real estate, tulips, etc.) is this: Of all the possible worlds, where is the probability mass concentrated with respect to the future of bitcoin, in terms of how it will actually be used? Is there an overwhelming tendency for bitcoin to fail and be replaced by other things (e.g. other cryptocurrencies, or fiat dollars) -- or is it actually likely (in at least the minimal sense of "not overwhelmingly unlikely") to turn into a major store of wealth in coming decades?
I rather think it is the latter. But first, let's consider what I believe to be the strongest argument against it, which unpacks to three parts:
Taken together, this seems like a pretty good knock-down argument. It apparently implies, as a matter of basic economic law, that some other cryptocurrency must win over it in the long term, and/or that fiat money will retain its dominance. But the thing to notice is that it's not so effective against bitcoin as a massive store of wealth per se, so much as a currency that will be directly used, in a manner directly analogous to how government-backed monetary units are used. Non-currency forms of wealth which serve some other purpose can safely handle quite a bit more volatility, because their value is not dependent on being trusted as a currency, but rather as a value storage mechanism.
Here is the general scenario that I think holds more probability mass than bitcoin-as-a-traditional-currency, and yet works as a fairly realistic alternative to bitcoin-as-a-flop:
Can this be done? Consider the following more specific scenario as an example:
This is just one example I've come up with, and may not be the best. Various other schemes are possible. (For example, it could be possible for any dollar-owner to convert them back to bitcoin, as opposed to the person who originally minted them.) What the various possible models for doing this have in common is that they allow you to set up currencies which dynamically increase and decrease in supply, depending on how much bitcoin people are willing to invest into them, and how badly people want bitcoins back later on.
A competing scenario to the above would be one in which a better-optimized cryptocurrency protocol implements this, or some other stability-prone algorithm and thus outcompetes the volatile, easily manipulated, "primitive" bitcoin protocol in use today. I used to think I could just jump on the bandwagon when this comes around, maybe strategically sell someone a pizza and end up a millionaire.
However, I've somewhat lost faith in that possibility of late because I realized that bitcoin is much more powerful than it seems, and is capable of substantial self-modification if needed for compatibility with a newer and better system. The only thing locking us to the current protocol is the degree to which bitcoin-owning miners find it in their best interests to continue to use it as it is. A competing algorithm that makes bitcoins more valuable without violating existing expectations would probably not be hard to get people to update to.
Another thing that makes me think bitcoin will tend to self-improve to the point of winning against competitors is that at least some people with substantial assets in bitcoin form are likely to be very proactive in defense thereof. Assuming they remain committed to the long game, and are able to acquire sufficient short-term wealth to pursue their goals, they can do a number of things to defend it against the various plausible attacks: Hiring programmers to improve the client software and render it less hackable, hiring lobbyists to protect it against regulatory interference, employing botnets to attack competitor currencies, slowing down or preventing transactions that appear to be going through anonymizing laundries that could be associated with tax-dodging and illegal drugs, and so forth.
So it seems to me like owning at least one bitcoin and holding onto it for long-term purposes is probably a good idea.