I find myself curious if we'd care as much about this if there were two girls who needed cryopreserving, instead of just one.
Is there any third-party or objective evidence whatsoever that this is not just another Reddit scam?
I don't recall any third party evidence but I would say the pictures of her in the first reddit post count as weak evidence this is real, also if it was a scam isn't it a bit silly that she didn't go for the skydiving thing? Expected income from that seems higher no?
I suggest you make a comment on her blog or on the thread defining what you would find acceptable evidence and asking for it. Those who agree with you and want to donate can then commit to donating should she provide it. Or if you won't do that people who would otherwise donate but are concerned about this can use the tactic to discover if that is their true objection.
Even if it was a scam deathist rants still need debunking.
Why would you donate to her, with a highly nontrivial chance of the money being wasted, spent on something else, or turning out to be just another Reddit scam - even if some iota of evidence was presented - rather than donate straight to ALCOR or CI or the Brain Preservation Prize? Especially given her claimed aim to give the money to ALCOR/CI? Why would you not cut out a highly dubious middleman? (And don't tell me that it will help create an additional suspension at the margin: ALCOR runs at a loss, and money is fungible.)
I'm astonished that on a site that discusses charity & philanthropy all the time, anyone could think donating a good idea.
sigh
I already covered this in the OP, I felt a strong sense of kinship, I would get a lot of warm fuzzies from doing this, if it is real, that I wouldn't from other things. It buys me more hedons than eating more ice cream this summer.
I didn't claim this was the best thing people could do with their money, I just wanted to encourage and alert those who might feel as I do.
Also I did think the Brain Preservation Prize was worth donating to. Its just that perhaps you didn't notice that I haven't exactly been around on the forums here for the past month+, no?
I am not in a financial position to engage in philanthropy.
Of course you are, you just gave away $200. Good grief.
Not to pick on you... Well actually yes, to pick on you: What the hell is wrong with you people? If this were religious-oriented - for a pilgrimage to Mecca or buy Mormon underpants or pay for one last course of Scientology auditing - you'd be laughing your ass off hysterically! But because it's cryonics...
How could you fail and compartmentalize so epically? This is like, fractally bad: at every level, donating is a bad idea. It's probably a scam, so donating is a bad idea; if it weren't a scam, you still have no idea what she would really do with it or how close to the cryonics fee she'd come, so donating is a bad idea; even if she would collect enough, donating to ALCOR or the Brain Preservation Prize is a better idea; even if you wanted to donate to them, they're still almost certainly not as good as Givewell's best charity; and so on.
As Konkvistador points out, I don't think people are being philanthropic, they're purchasing fuzzies.
Assuming this is not a scam, I would donate for practical reasons (and not only fuzzies) - for those who plan to be frozen, we want cryonics to be popular. A public incident like this might make it into news, etc., and make a difference. Plus Reddit has gotten quite big.
There are a lot of things I'd like to say, but you have put forth a prediction
It's probably a scam
I would like to take up a bet with you on this ending up being a scam. This can be arbitrated by some prominent member of CI, Alcor, or Rudi Hoffman. I would win if an arbiter decides that the person who posted on Reddit was in fact diagnosed with cancer essentially as stated in her Reddit posts, and is in fact gathering money for a her own cryonics arrangements. If none of the proposed arbiters can vouch for the above within one month (through September 18), then you will win the bet.
What odds would you like on this, and what's the maximum amount of money you'd put on the line?
Maybe a charity specializing in Africans which will send you pictures of little kids?
You're missing the similarity drive. Pictures of smiling Africans is different from "this girl thinks like me"- the former are just kindred bodies, the latter are kindred spirits.
Yes, I am deeply suspicious of Eliezer's post on warm fuzzies vs utilons because while I accept that it can be a good strategy, I am skeptical that it actually is: my suspicion is that for pretty much all people, buying fuzzies just crowds out buying utilons.
For example, I asked Konkvistador on IRC, since he was planning on buying fuzzies by donating to this person, what utilons he was planning on buying, especially since he had just mentioned he had very little money to spare. He replied with something about not eating ice cream and drinking more water.
I have; now please ponder why I might find repugnant the idea of donating towards something as inefficient and low-probability as cryonics rather than the very high probability charities identified by GiveWell, based solely on some identity politics and a Reddit post.
If everyone is going to justify donating to her on fuzzies, then have the guts to defend fuzzies. Fuzzies are not a good way of helping human beings 'facing death': that's the point. Don't equivocate between arguing that donating to her is a good way of making you feel better, and arguing that donating to her is a utilitarianly optimal sort of donation.
You make an interesting assumption that we care about other people in general. If you assume that we model the human species as a group of people with the bell curve split fifty percent above and below the zero value line symmetrically, then it's perfectly rational to give only to people who are familiar enough with to rank in the positive half.
Note: I do not believe this.
Also, if you actually believe in optimal charity for utilitarian reasons, then abusing people for sub-optimal charity is ridiculous. It does not make them more likely to engage in optimal charity, it makes them more likely not to engage in charity at all. You're shooting your cause in the foot at least as much as they are.
Why did you have to? Do you feel like the strength of your arguments alone wouldn't suffice?
That's exactly it. This page is stuffed with identity politics, prewritten bottom lines, base-rate neglect, likely sexism, sheer abandonment of optimal charity, scope insensitivity, equivocation & abuse of fuzzies vs utilons, and so on.
This is all LW orthodoxy to the extent there is such a thing, yet even so, the pull of 'dying cute girl wants cryonics! MUST HELP!' is so strong that LW orthodoxy + good rhetoric* still earns me a mix of heavy down and upvotes with the flow of donations apparently unabated.
* I don't think I'm very good at rhetoric, but I'll take your word for it.
Ugh. The top comment seems to fall into all the traps of someone rationalising their mortality, and it has received so much positive feedback too! :(
(And also they clearly don't properly know what they are talking about: calling it "cryogenics" and saying the vague and awkwardly phrased "it's been debunked by science".)
Look at the evidence:
If pizzarules1000 (that's what we have to call her, since she won't share her real name) is desperate for her life, she could have fooled me. Why didn't she PM the reddit mods, so that they could verify her information? Why didn't she ask the Cyrogenics Institute to handle preservation fund? Why won't she videoblog? The whole think looks like a lazy attempt to make a few bucks, rather than a desperate attempt to preserve her own life.
There is a conversation going on about her on the CI Facebook page that seems to indicate that she has been in contact with them. According to info there, her name is Kim Suozzi. Also they will set up a fund at CI for her, once she becomes a member and they vet her story. So If you are considering donating, but worried its a scam, it might be best to hold off until then.
Hey guys, you may know me as pizzarules1000, but I want to formally introduce myself to the community. My name is Kim Suozzi. Here's a link to my Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/kimsuozzi), a video I made today (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW3peOK1X9E), and Twitter, which you might enjoy (https://twitter.com/dblchb). I'd be happy to upload some documents confirming my identity/that I have cancer. I'll be at Duke tomorrow and can have my medical records sent to whomever. I also could upload a pathology report today, or have one of my doctors email you guys a document confirming my condition/treatment. I always have my driver license to show you as well. I just made a payment to CI (http://imgur.com/VVdoU) and asked them if they could help with handling the fund. I don't blame you for wanting to be careful.
Anyway, now that I have all of that out of the way (sort of), I want to express how deeply I appreciate everyone's support so far in donating, spreading my story, and otherwise advocating for me. I'm so glad that there's this robust community of intelligent and compassionate people that have come to my aid. As much as it sucks to die now, I'm goddamned lucky to live in the pla...
Kim, I am so sorry about what has happened to you. Reading your post was heartbreaking. Death is a stupid and terrible thing.
Like JGWeissman, I planned to donate $500.
Stephan has been a close friend of mine for the past decade, and when he told me he was planning to donate $5,000, I wrangled a commitment from him to do what I do and donate a significant and permanent percentage of his income to efficient charities. There are many lives to save, and even though you have to do some emotional math to realize how you should be feeling, it's the right thing to do and it's vital to act.
He wrangled a commitment from me too: when CI manages a fund for you, I will donate $5,000.
Hi Kim, I'm Stephan. Your story hit me harder than probably anyone else here - I'm 29, I intend to sign up for cryonics in the next few years, and glioblastoma multiforme has killed two of my ancestors: my maternal grandmother when I was very young, and my dad in 2010. If I were diagnosed with GBM now, much less at 23, I'd be mewling like a kitten in terror. I am truly sorry to hear of the shitty hand that nature has dealt you.
I will donate $5,000 when CI manages a fund for you (like JGWeissman said).
While some people have been offering you terrible "advice" on Reddit, I swear that this is completely different - I want to point out two important things that you may have missed. (Obviously, you haven't had a ton of time to look into your options here!)
I think that one of the strongest pieces of evidence against this being a scam is that she picked cryonics, which seems low payout even in the demographics of reddit. Not saying that it's not a scam, but if I were designing a scam, I'd pick something else.
I have donated $1000, and I really do believe that our community can get her fully funded. I understand how CI has to be cautious about these sorts of things, but I've seen enough evidence to be more than convinced.
A few of my favorite posts in this thread:
And Death is not something I will ever embrace.
It is only a childish thing, that the human species has not yet outgrown.
And someday...
We'll get over it...
And people won't have to say goodbye any more...
And someday when the descendants of humanity have spread from star to star, they won't tell the children about the history of Ancient Earth until they're old enough to bear it; and when they learn they'll weep to hear that such a thing as Death had ever once existed!
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light!
Also
Fuck you. I like being alive.
(For context, the first two quotes you have there are from HPMoR.)
Is it possible that she could suggest to the Cryonics Institute that they could set up an account in her name and we could donate directly to that account, cutting out the middleman but still directly contributing to this girl?
Also, I think that if it was a scam choosing cryonics is probably a bad choice since plenty of people even in an atheist forum seem to be against it, and thus its not as likely to generate as much sympathy. I think she could have said "I want to go on a safari in Africa" or some sort of trip that is moderately expensive (just like the skydiving comments claim) and received more funding.
Is it possible that she could suggest to the Cryonics Institute that they could set up an account in her name and we could donate directly to that account, cutting out the middleman but still directly contributing to this girl?
This comment on CI's Facebook page indicates that she and CI are in the process of setting that up.
When that is established, I plan to donate $500. (If anyone sees that it is set up, and I haven't followed up yet, respond to this comment.)
(ETA: There is now a fund set up by the Society for Venturism, and I have made my donation through them.)
Live again or die trying.
Wow, I'd heard "live forever or die trying" before, and it came across as just a clever saying. In the context of someone facing this challenge in the immediate future, it came across as deeply emotional.
Rarely am I angry that I don't have more money. This is one of the times. Conditional on being true.
To the people arguing for efficient charity: I prefer to help people who actually want to live forever. Helping someone who wants to die, just not right now, seems like a waste to me.
My current plan, should I be diagnosed with a terminal illness, is to immediately donate all available funds to an optimal charity so that the money canNOT be spent on treatments with extremely high costs and low (if any) benefits.
Well I have a $150 payment that I got from the Good Judgement Project. I will donate that to her on or around 15 September.
I think this is actually a very worthwhile charity, for a number of reasons, I do not really wish to enter into a discussion at this point. However, to those of you who think there is a better use for the money AND think this might be a scam: If you present evidence that this is a scam by 15th September, I will donate the money to the charity of your choice instead.
What about the brain damage her tumor is causing?
This seems important and I'm a little surprised no one's asked. How will her brain damage impact her chances of revival? (From the blog linked in the reddit post, it sounds like she is already experiencing symptoms.) Obviously she is quite mentally competent right now, but what about when she is declared legally dead? I am far from an expert and simply would like to hear some authoritative commentary on this. I am interested in donating but only if there's a reasonable chance brain damage won't make it superfluous.
Though I do agree that this case is probably good exposure for cryonics.
I would furthermore advise the billionaire that what they spend on utilons should be at least, say, 20 times what they spend on warm fuzzies—5% overhead on keeping yourself altruistic seems reasonable, and I, your dispassionate judge, would have no trouble validating the warm fuzzies against a multiplier that large.
To those who have donated to the girl with the express purpose of buying fuzzies: could you please name below the cost-effective charity to which you have given or will soon give at least 20 times the amount donated?
She might be able to afford a lower-quality alternative, but nothing other than plastination seems to show any chance of reversibility. And plastination, to the best of my knowledge, has only been shown to work on thin slices of tissue.
As an example, Thomas Sullivan's brain was chemopreserved by his son, and was later transferred to LN2. And brain-only chemopreservation may turn out to be better for her future chances than vitrification at CI, considering the kind of errors CI has on its record.
Alternatively, people could loan her the money until she is revived and can pay back, though I'm not sure if that's entirely legal.
Saw this on reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ydsy5/reddit_help_me_find_some_peace_in_dying_young_im/
Hey Reddit,
I'm a 23 year old girl with recurrent Glioblastoma multiforme (GBM), a highly aggressive type of brain cancer. I posted a couple of months ago asking for suggestions for things I should try before I die (life expectancy is 3-6 months) and got a lot of great ideas (many of which I've fulfilled).
At the time of my last post, my treatment was undecided. I ended up participating in a phase I trial at Dana-Farber, but I progressed after two months of treatment. There are not many great treatment options left for me, but my next move will be five radiosurgery treatments at Duke University next week. My prognosis looks pretty bleak at this point, and though I am hoping to exceed the 6-10 month median survival, I have to prepare to die. In a way, I am fortunate because the lesion is primarily in my brain stem (controls things like breathing), so I will likely die before the tumor spreads to the areas central to who I am.
I'm back on Reddit again, mostly to ask for help because I want to be cryogenically preserved upon my death. I've been interested in cryonics since long before I was even diagnosed, but I never thought that I would have to secure the finances so fast, and without a career or savings to stand on. As weird as it feels to ask for help here, I feel I should just give it a shot and sees what happens.
I caused a lot of family controversy last week by breaking the news to my parents. I can tell I've alienated them quite a bit as they are Christian and don't see why I'd want to be preserved; in their mind, I am going to heaven and my "soul" will forever leave my body when I die anyway. I clearly upset both of them with the implication that I was agnostic (I didn't say this outright, but it's true). My mom is fairly supportive of my plans to be preserved, but unfortunately, my dad isn't a fan of the idea, and he's really the only family I have that could offer financial help (my parents are divorced and not on good terms). The company I'm looking into, Cryonics Institute, costs $30,000-35,000 with transportation to the facility accounted for. My boyfriend is fully supportive, but like me, he's broke and barely out of college.
I know this is a big thing to ask for, and I'm sure many people are doubtful that preservation is plausible with cryonics. I'm far from convinced, but I would rather take the chance with preservation than rot in the ground or get cremated. The company I'm looking into, Cryonics Institute, has a good intro on their FAQ page that offers a hopeful outlook on future technology: http://cryonics.org/prod.html
A lot of people on reddit wanted to start a fundraiser for me awhile ago to aid in doing fun things before I die. I am hoping that redditors will still have some interest in helping me even if it's not going towards vacation or skydiving and shit like that. Cryopreservation is sincerely what will bring me the most peace in death.
I wish I could give a particularly compelling reason why I deserve another chance at life, but there's not much to say. I'm still just a kid, and hadn't even finished college when I was diagnosed. Unfortunately the most interesting thing I have yet to do is get a terminal disease at a young age.
If you guys can help me out, I would be grateful to a degree I can't possibly describe. I'm desperate. If you care to donate to the cause, the link to my blog and fundraiser is HERE. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, you can do to help would be endlessly appreciated. If you don't want to look at my dumb cancer blog, the direct link to the preservation fund can be found HERE
On a lighter note, I'm open to the idea of trading donations for anything you might want in exchange (within legal limits). This could be fun!
Proof can be found on my earlier post, but here's a pic from today: http://i.imgur.com/Qdkzn.jpg?1
I'm also open to any questions about brain cancer, or my rationale for wanting to be preserved.
EDIT:
I want to explain in a little more detail why I think cryopreservation is worth a try. (Even an expensive try).
First, I want to make it clear that I'm not betting my life on cryopreservation. I am aware of the problems with the current state of cryonics, but I have the hope that technology might come up with a solution in the future. No one knows what technology will be available in 50 years. Yes, it takes "faith" in technology, but it takes faith to assume that technology won't be sufficient to reverse these problems someday.
The main point I want to make here is that it's a better shot at living again than if I were decomposing somewhere or cooked into ash. The relative value of even a slight chance at living again is a huge payoff for what seems like a lot of money to me now, but probably would be an easy decision for me if I had a steady job. Compare the cost of preservation to the cost of traveling overseas to pursue experimental treatments; I think the current state of glioblastoma treatment is just as bleak (if not more), but it doesn't seem so crazy to pursue those routes.
I'm trying to be preserved because I've done everything else in my power to help me extend my life. I've looked at essentially every diet, supplement, clinical trial, and "miracle treatment" out there. This is the last thing I can possibly do to fight for another chance, and if does happen to work, it will be incredible.
Live again or die trying.
EDIT 2: A cool quote
"The correct scientific answer to the question "Does cryonics work?" is: "The clinical trials are in progress. Come back in a century and we'll give you a reliable answer." The relevant question for those of us who don't expect to survive that long is: "Would I rather be in the control group, or the experimental group?" We are forced by circumstances to answer that question without the benefit of knowing the results of the clinical trials." - Dr. Ralph Merkle
TLDR; I want to be cryogenically preserved when I die from brain cancer but can't afford it. I am literally begging for financial help.
I couldn't help be moved by this. I felt a very strong sense that she is one of us, whoever "us" is. Looking at some of the negative comments and worst of all bad arguments people are using as reasons not to donate made me more upset.
I hope some here might join me in dismantling them. I'd also encourage those like me for who this buys a lot of warm fuzzies to donate. Though it might be wise to wait until we hear from CI or some other third party on the matter.
Edit: She has since made a comment on LW! The provided information has made me pretty much certain that this is a genuine plight.
redditors where willing to give her money to go skydiving, they don't want to give her money to buy cryonics. Sometimes I can only weep.
I think it pretty clear that promoting efficient charity in that particular thread is very unlikely to result in people giving money to better causes. Also I just plain want her to be rewarded in some small way! Note the part starting in the second paragraph that I bolded, not only did she realized what she really was, but she stepped over the entire set of pro-death rationalizations and faced the social pressure people she loved exerted on her because they think she might go to heaven ... its not her fault that a few cells in her brain went haywire before she could afford an insurance policy, I just don't want people like that not having something to show after getting so much stuff right.
2n Edit:
For anyone who just realized the universe sucks and wishes to do something about that whole people dying thing, they are welcome to engage in some optimal death defeating philanthropy by donating to The Brain Preservation Prize that has been endorsed by both Robin Hanson and Eliezer Yudkowsky.
I know that there are more than 17 other people like me in the world, who really want to see the results of these attempts. A world in which brains can be cheaply preserved indefinitely is a world I want to live in - and it would just be sad if this project fizzled because it lacked the funds to verify the already-existing results.
