When I say I think I can solve (some of) metaethics, what exactly is it that I think I can solve?

First, we must distinguish the study of ethics or morality from the anthropology of moral belief and practice. The first one asks: "What is right?" The second one asks: "What do people think is right?" Of course, one can inform the other, but it's important not to confuse the two. One can correctly say that different cultures have different 'morals' in that they have different moral beliefs and practices, but this may not answer the question of whether or not they are behaving in morally right ways.

My focus is metaethics, so I'll discuss the anthropology of moral belief and practice only when it is relevant for making points about metaethics.

So what is metaethics? Many people break the field of ethics into three sub-fields: applied ethics, normative ethics, and metaethics.

Applied ethics: Is abortion morally right? How should we treat animals? What political and economic systems are most moral? What are the moral responsibilities of businesses? How should doctors respond to complex and uncertain situations? When is lying acceptable? What kinds of sex are right or wrong? Is euthanasia acceptable?

Normative ethics: What moral principles should we use in order to decide how to treat animals, when lying is acceptable, and so on? Is morality decided by what produces the greatest good for the greatest number? Is it decided by a list of unbreakable rules? Is it decided by a list of character virtues? Is it decided by a hypothetical social contract drafted under ideal circumstances?

Metaethics: What does moral language mean? Do moral facts exist? If so, what are they like, and are they reducible to natural facts? How can we know whether moral judgments are true or false? Is there a connection between making a moral judgment and being motivated to abide by it? Are moral judgments objective or subjective, relative or absolute? Does it make sense to talk about moral progress?

Others prefer to combine applied ethics and normative ethics so that the breakdown becomes: normative ethics vs. metaethics, or 'first order' moral questions (normative ethics) vs. 'second order' questions (metaethics).

Mainstream views in metaethics

To illustrate how people can give different answers to the questions of metaethics, let me summarize some of the mainstream philosophical positions in metaethics.

Cognitivism vs. non-cognitivism: This is a debate about what is happening when people engage in moral discourse. When someone says "Murder is wrong," are they trying to state a fact about murder, that it has the property of being wrong? Or are they merely expressing a negative emotion toward murder, as if they had gasped aloud and said "Murder!" with a disapproving tone?

Another way of saying this is that cognitivists think moral discourse is 'truth-apt' - that is, moral statements are the kinds of things that can be true or false. Some cognitivists think that all moral claims are in fact false (error theory), just as the atheist thinks that claims about gods are usually meant to be fact-stating but in fact are all false because gods don't exist.1 Other cognitivists think that at least some moral claims are true. Naturalism holds that moral judgments are true or false because of natural facts,2 while non-naturalism holds that moral judgments are true or false because of non-natural facts.3 Weak cognitivism holds that moral judgments can be true or false not because they agree with certain (natural or non-natural) opinion-independent facts, but because our considered opinions determine the moral facts.4

Non-cognitivists, in contrast, tend to think that moral discourse is not truth-apt. Ayer (1936) held that moral sentences express our emotions ("Murder? Yuck!") about certain actions. This is called emotivism or expressivism. Another theory is prescriptivism, the idea that moral sentences express commands ("Don't murder!").5 Or perhaps moral judgments express our acceptance of certain norms (norm expressivism).6 Or maybe our moral judgments express our dispositions to form sentiments of approval or disapproval (quasi-realism).7

Moral psychology: One major debate in moral psychology concerns whether moral judgments require some (defeasible) motivation to adhere to the moral judgment (motivational internalism), or whether one can make a moral judgment without being motivated to adhere to it (motivational externalism). Another debate concerns whether motivation depends on both beliefs and desires (the Humean theory of motivation), or whether some beliefs are by themselves intrinsically motivating (non-Humean theories of motivation).

More recently, researchers have run a number of experiments to test the mechanisms by which people make moral judgments. I will list a few of the most surprising and famous results:

  • Whether we judge an action as 'intentional' or not often depends on the judged goodness or badness of the action, not the internal states of the agent.8
  • Our moral judgments are significantly affected by whether we are in the presence of freshly baked bread or a low concentration of fart spray that only the subconscious mind can detect.9
  • Our moral judgments are greatly affected by pointing magnets at the point in our brain that processes theory of mind.10
  • People tend to insist that certain things are right or wrong even when a hypothetical situation is constructed such that they admit they can give no reason for their judgment.11
  • We use our recently-evolved neocortex to make utilitarian judgments, and deontological judgments tend to come from evolutionarily older parts of our brains.12
  • People give harsher moral judgments when they feel clean.13

Moral epistemology: Different views on cognitivism vs. non-cognitivism and moral psychology suggest different views of moral epistemology. How can we know moral facts? Non-cognitivists and error theorists think there are no moral facts to be known. Those who believe moral facts answer to non-natural facts tend to think that moral knowledge comes from intuition, which somehow has access to non-natural facts. Moral naturalists tend to think that moral facts can be accessed simply by doing science.

Tying it all together

I will not be trying very hard to fit my pluralistic moral reductionism into these categories. I'll be arguing about the substance, not the symbols. But it still helps to have a concept of the subject matter by way of such examples.

Maybe mainstream metaethics will make more sense in flowchart form. Here's a flowchart I adapted from Miller (2003). If you don't understand the bottom-most branching, read chapter 9 of Miller's book or else just don't worry about it. (Click through for full size.)

Next post: Conceptual Analysis and Moral Theory

Previous post: Heading Toward: No-Nonsense Metaethics

Notes

1 This is not quite correct. The error theorist can hold that a statement like "Murder is not wrong" is true, for he thinks that murder is not wrong or right. Rather, the error theorist claims that all moral statements which presuppose the existence of a moral property are false, because no such moral properties exist. See Joyce (2004). Mackie (1977) is the classic statement of error theory.

2 Sturgeon (1988); Boyd (1988); Brink (1989); Brandt (1979); Railton (1986); Jackson (1998). I have written introductions to the three major versions of moral naturalism: Cornell realism, Railton's moral reductionism (1, 2), and Jackson's moral functionalism.

3 Moore (1903); McDowell (1998); Wiggins (1987).

4 For an overview of such theories, see Miller (2003), chapter 7.

5 See Carnap (1937), p. 23-25; Hare (1952).

6 Gibbard (1990).

7 Blackburn (1984).

8 The Knobe Effect. See Knobe (2003).

9 Schnall et al. (2008); Baron & Thomley (1994).

10 Young et al. (2010). I interviewed the author of this study here.

11 This is moral dumfounding. See Haidt (2001).

12 Greene (2007).

13 Zhong et al. (2010).

References

Baron & Thomley (1994). A Whiff of Reality: Positive Affect as a Potential Mediator of the Effects of Pleasant Fragrances on Task Performance and Helping. Environment and Behavior, 26(6): 766-784.

Blackburn (1984). Spreading the Word. Oxford University Press.

Brandt (1979). A Theory of the Good and the Right. Oxford University Press.

Brink (1989). Moral Realism and the Foundations of Ethics. Cambridge University Press.

Boyd (1988). How to be a Moral Realist. In Sayre-McCord (ed.), Essays in Moral Realism (pp. 181-122). Cornell University Press.

Carnap (1937). Philosophy and Logical Syntax. Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co.

Gibbard (1990). Wise Choices, Apt Feelings. Clarendon Press.

Greene (2007). The secret joke of Kant's soul. In Sinnott-Armstrong (ed.), Moral Psychology, Vol. 3: The Neuroscience of Morality: Emotion, Disease, and Development. MIT Press.

Haidt (2001). The emotional dog and its rational tail: A social intuitionist approach to moral judgment. Psychological Review, 108: 814-834

Hare (1952). The Language of Morals. Oxford University Press.

Jackson (1998). From Metaphysics to Ethics. Oxford UniversityPress.

Joyce (2001). The Myth of Morality. Cambridge University Press.

Knobe (2003). Intentional Action and Side Effects in Ordinary Language. Analysis, 63: 190-193.

Mackie (1977). Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong. Penguin.

McDowell (1998). Mind, Value, and Reality. Harvard University Press.

Miller (2003). An Introduction to Contemporary Metaethics. Polity.

Moore (1903). Principia Ethica. Cambridge University Press.

Schnall, Haidt, Clore, & Jordan (2008). Disgust as embodied moral judgment. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 34(8): 1096-1109.

Sturgeon (1988). Moral explanations. In Sayre-McCord (ed.), Essays in Moral Realism (pp. 229-255). Cornell University Press.

Railton (1986). Moral realism. Philosophical Review, 95: 163-207.

Wiggins (1987). A sensible subjectivism. In Needs, Values, Truth (pp. 185-214). Blackwell.

Young, Camprodon, Hauser, Pascual-Leone, & Saxe (2010). Disruption of the right temporoparietal junction with transcranial magnetic stimulation reduces the role of beliefs in moral judgments. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 107: 6753-6758.

Zhong, Strejcek, & Sivanathan (2010). A clean self can render harsh moral judgment. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 46 (5): 859-862

What is Metaethics?
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Hm. What is this post for? It doesn't explain the ideas it refers to in any detail sufficient to feel what they mean, and from what it does tell, the ideas seem pretty crazy/simplistic, paying attention to strange categories, like that philpapers survey. (The part before "Mainstream views in metaethics" section does seem to address the topic of the post, but the rest is pretty bizarre. If that was the point, it should've been made, I think, but it probably wasn't.)

My posts are now going to feel naked to me whenever they lack a comment from you complaining that the post isn't book-length, covering every detail of a given topic. :)

Like I said, I don't have much interest in fitting my views into the established categories, but I wanted to give people an overview of how metaethics is usually done so they at least have some illustrations of what the subject matter is.

And if you find mainstream metaethics bizarre, well... welcome to a diseased discipline.

6Amanojack
Since you understand how diseased the discipline of ethics is, I'm hoping the next post in the series will focus heavily on clearing up the semantic issues that have made it so diseased. I don't think any real sense can be made of metaethics until the very nature of what someone is doing when they utter an ethical statement is covered. We use language to do a lot of things: express emotions, make other people do stuff, signal, intimidate, get our thoughts into other people's minds, parrot what someone else said - and often more than one of these at a time. Since we presumably are trying to get at the speaker's intention, we really can't know the "meaning" without asking the speaker, yet various metaethical theorists call themselves emotivists, error theorists, prescriptivists, and so on. It seems to me the choice of an meta-ethical theory boils down to a choice of what the theorists wants to presume people are trying to do when they use the word ought. Surely no one can deny that sometimes some people do indeed intend "You ought not steal" as a command, or as a way of expressing disgust at the notion of theft, or simply as a means of intimidation. My meta-meta-ethical theory is that it all depends on what the person uttering the statement intends to accomplish by saying it. A debate between these meta-ethical theories sounds very likely to revolve around whose definition of ought is "correct". In short, I think the main reason ethics is so diseased as a discipline is that the theorists are trying to argue whose definition is better, rather than acknowledging that it is pretty hard for anyone to know what each person intends by their moralistic language.
5Clippy
My definition of "ought" is correct.
3lukeprog
Yes, I agree with all this.
0[anonymous]
Maybe the preoccupation with "statements" is part of the disease. After all, there would probably be ethics even without language or with a very different language. And after all, when investigating x, you should investigate x, not statements about x.
3CuSithBell
But first you need to identify x. Which is a question about the meaning of a word.
0Amanojack
Though Bongo is surely right there would be moral sentiments even without language, now we are dealing with something identified: specific emotions like empathy, sense of justice, disgust, indignation, pity. Yeah those would exist without language. And yes, language has made things much more complicated, and the preoccupation with analyzing sentences makes it even even worse. If people can realize all that without looking at the very nature of communication, that would be great, but in my experience most people feel hesitant about scrapping so many centuries of philosophy and need to see how the language makes such a mess of things before they can truly feel comfortable with it. If Bongo is ready to scrap language analysis now and drop all the silly -isms, I'm preaching to the choir.
2Amanojack
Ethics is unique, at least to me, in that I still have no idea what the heck people are even referring to most of the time when they use moralistic language. I can't investigate X until I know what X is even supposed to be about. Most of the time there is a fundamental failure to communicate, even regarding the definition of the field itself. And whenever there isn't such a failure, the problem disappears and all discussants agree as if nothing.
-9Gray
2lukeprog
I should add that nobody who has read and understood the sequences should be surprised by what I'll describe as 'pluralistic moral reductionism.' I'm writing this sequence because I think this basic view on standard metaethical questions hasn't yet been articulated clearly enough for my satisfaction. And then, I want to make a bit of progress on the hard questions of 'metaethics' (it depends where you draw the boundary around 'metaethics') - but only after I've swept away the easy questions of metaethics.

This post covered at least as much material as my old college moral philosophy classes did in a month. It also left me feeling more confident that I understood all the terms involved than that month of classes did. Thank you for being able to explain difficult things clearly and concisely.

I request an explanation of why my comment telling Luke he did a good job is more highly upvoted than the post Luke did a good job on. If you agree with me that Luke did a good job strongly enough to upvote the statement, why not upvote Luke?

[-]zaph120

Couldn't that just be due to a higher number of total votes (both up an down) for the OP? I would assume fewer people read each comment, and downvoters may have decided to only weigh in on the OP. A hypothetical controversial post could have a karma of 8, with 10 downvotes negating 10 upvotes, and a supportive comment could have 9 upvotes due to half of the upvotes of the first post giving it their vote. The comment has higher karma, but lower volatility, so to speak.

0wedrifid
Good explanation.
4prase
I have upvoted your comment because it gives a feedback to the author, which should be encouraged (negative feedback leads to improvement, but surely we don't want to read only disapproval, do we?). Not always when I upvote a comment, I agree with its content.
3TheOtherDave
Oddly, the comment is now less upvoted than the post, but your request for an explanation is being downvoted. I'm kinda curious as to the underlying thought processes now, myself.
6NancyLebovitz
This is making me wonder if karma can cause people to model LW as having a group mind, and if people generally think of social groups which are too large to model each individual as being group minds.
1TheOtherDave
I'm not sure if it's related to what you're wondering, but if it helps clarify anything I'll add that I don't exactly know what a group mind is, or what exactly it means to model a group as one, but that when I ask questions of a forum (or, as in this case, mention to a forum that I'm curious about something) I expect that a large number of individuals will read the question, decide individually whether they have a useful answer and whether they feel like providing it, and act accordingly. In this case, more specifically, I figured that the people whose voting patterns matched the group-level behavior -- e.g., the ones who upvoted Yvain but not Luke at first, or who downvoted Yvain's request for explanation -- might address my curiosity with personal anecdotes... and potentially that various other people would weigh in with theories.
1NancyLebovitz
What I was thinking of with the "group mind" is that it can be tempting if one is flamed by a few people in a group, to feel as though the whole group is on the attack.
1wedrifid
For my part I model karma interactions and group thinking processes here via subgroups (which are not necessarily mutually exclusive). There are also a few who get their own model - which is either a compliment, insult or in some cases both.
0[anonymous]
Tolerate tolerance? For example, I downvoted the post, but not your comment.
0RobinZ
I expect to upvote this after I can see how it fits into the sequence better.
2Emile
WrongBot said something similar, but I found it a bit hard to follow, especially since I'm unfamiliar with some of the terminology like "natural facts", and also because keeping track of a lot of newly-introduced terminology describing the various positions is not easy.
0lukeprog
Thanks!
[-]PlaidX120

I still have a hard time seeing how any of this is going to go somewhere useful.

4lukeprog
Luckily, for the moment, some people are already finding it useful.
2thomblake
Here is my understanding: Ethics is the study of what one has most reason to do or want. On that definition, it is directly relevant to instrumental rationality. And if we want to discover the facts about ethics, we should determine what sort of things those facts would be, so that we might recognize them when we've found them - this, on one view, is the role of metaethics. This post is an intro to current thought on metaethics, which should at least make more clear the scope of the problem to any who would like to pursue it.

What does "natural fact" mean?

4lukeprog
It means different things to different people. Moore (1903) wrote: Alternatively, Baldwin (1993) suggests: Warnock's (1960) interpretation of Moore was: Miller (2003) concludes:
8Will_Newsome
If you plan on using the word 'naturalistic' to describe your meta-ethics at some point, I hope you give a better definition than these philosophers have given. "Naturalistic" often seems to be a way of saying "there is no magic involved!", but it's not like metaphysical phenomena are necessarily magical. Using logical properties of symmetric decision algorithms to solve timeless coordination problems, for instance, doesn't fit into Miller's definition of natural properties, but it's probably somewhat tied up into some facets of meta-ethics (or morality at the very least, but that line is easily blurred and probably basically shouldn't exist in a correct technical solution). I'm really just trying to keep a relevant distinction between "naturalistic" and "metaphysical" which are both interesting and valid, instead of having two categories "naturalistic" and "magical" where you get points for pointing out how non-magical and naturalistic a proposed solution is. This stems from a general fear of causal / timeful / reductionist explanations that could miss important points about teleology / timelessness / pattern attractors / emergence, e.g. the distinction between timeless and causal decision theory or between timeless and causal validity semantics (if there is one), which have great bearing on reflective/temporal consistency and seem very central to meta-ethics. I don't think you're heading there with your solution to meta-ethics, but as an aside I'm still confused about what it is you're trying to solve if you're not addressing any of these questions that seem very central. Your past selves' utility functions are just evidence. Meta-ethics should tell you how to treat that evidence, just as it should tell you how future selves should treat your present utility function as evidence. Figuring out what my past selves' or others' utility functions are in some sense is of course a necessary step, but even after you have that data you still need to figure out what the
3torekp
A better answer than any that Luke cited would start with the network of causal laws paradigmatically considered "natural," such as those of physics and chemistry, then work toward properties, relations, objects and facts. There might (as a matter of logical possibility) have been other clusters of causal laws, such as supernatural or non-natural laws, but these would be widely separated from the natural laws with little interaction (pineal gland only?) or very non-harmonious interaction (gods defying physics). We had a discussion about this earlier. I will try to dig up a link.

I am increasingly getting the perception that morality/ethics is useless hogwash. I already believed that to be the case before Less Wrong and I am not sure why I ever bothered to take it seriously again. I guess I was impressed that people who are concerned with 'refining the art of rationality' talk about it and concluded that after all there must be something to it. But I have yet to come across a single argument that would warrant the use of any terminology related to moral philosophy.

The article Say Not "Complexity" should have been about mo... (read more)

3[anonymous]
I would argue that the problem is not with morality, but with how it is being approached here. This is a starting point for understanding morality. is utilitarianism, which seems to be the house approach to morality - the very approach which you find unpersuasive. Not quite. It's possible to wish a person dead, while being reluctant to kill him yourself, and even while considering anyone who does kill him a murderer who needs to be caught and brought to justice. Morality derives from preferences in a way, but it is indirect. An analogous phenomenon is the market price. The market price of a good derives from the preferences of everyone participating in the market, but the derivation is indirect. The price of a good isn't merely what you would prefer to pay for it, because that's always zero. Nor is it merely what the seller would prefer to be paid for it, because there is no upper limit on what he would charge if he could. Rather, the market price is set by supply and demand, and supply and demand depend in large part on preferences. So price derives from preferences, but the derivation is indirect, and it is mediated by interaction between people. Morality, I think, is similar. It derives from preferences indirectly, by way of interaction. This leaves open the possibility that morality is as variable as prices, but I think that because of the preferences that it rests on, it is much, much less variable, though not invariable. Natural selection holds these preferences largely in check. For example, if some genetic line of people were to develop a preference for being slaughtered, they would quickly die out.
-1XiXiDu
This just shows that human wants are inconsistent, that humans are holding conflicting ideas simultaneously, why invoke 'morality' in this context? People or road blockades, what's the difference? I just don't see why one would talk about morality here. The preferences of other people are simply more complex road blockades on the way towards your goal. Some of those blockades are artistically appealing so you try to be careful in removing them...why invoke 'morality' in this context?
2[anonymous]
But these two desires are not inconsistent, because for someone to die by, say, natural causes, is not the same thing as for him to die by your own hand. You could say the same thing about socks. E.g., "I just don't see why one would talk about socks here. Socks are simply complex arrangements of molecules. Why invoke "sock" in this context?" What are you going to do instead of invoking "sock"? Are you going to describe the socks molecule by molecule as a way of avoiding using the word "sock"? That would be cumbersome, to say the least. Nor would it be any more true. Socks are real. They aren't imaginary. That they're made out of molecules does not stop them from being real. All this can be said about morality. What are you going to do instead of invoking "morality"? Are you going to describe people's reactions as a way of avoiding using the word "morality"? That would be cumbersome, to say the least. Nor would it be any more true. Morality is real. It isn't imaginary. That it's made out of people's reactions doesn't stop it from being real. Denying the reality of morality simply because it is made out of people's reactions, is like denying the reality of socks simply because they're made out of molecules.
3XiXiDu
Consider the the trolley problem. Naively you kill the fat guy if you care about other people and also if you only care about yourself, because you want others to kill the fat guy as well because you are more likely to be one of the many people tied to the rails than the fat guy. Of course there is the question about how killing one fat guy to save more people and similar decisions could erode society. Yet it is solely a question about wants, about the preferences of the agents involved. I don't see how it could be helpful to add terminology derived from moral philosophy here or elsewhere.
-4Peterdjones
It is meaningful wherever it is meaningful to discuss whether there are wants people should and shouldn't have.
1XiXiDu
I am going to use moral terminology in the appropriate cultural context. But why would one use it on a site that supposedly tries to dissolve problems using reductionism as a general heuristic? I am also using the term "free will" because people model their decisions according to that vague and ultimately futile concept. But if possible (if I am not too lazy) I avoid using any of those bogus memes. Of course, it is real. Cthulhu is also real, it is a fictional cosmic entity. But if someone acts according to their fear of Cthulhu I am not going to resolve their fear by talking about it in terms of the Lovecraft Mythos but in terms of mental illness. How so? Can you give an example where the use of terminology derived from moral philosophy is useful instead of obfuscating?
-1XiXiDu
Consider the Is–ought problem. The basis for every ought statement is what I believe to be correct with respect to my goals. If you want to reach a certain goal and I want to help you and believe to know a better solution than you do then I tell you what you ought to do because 1.) you want to reach a goal 2.) I want you to reach your goal 3.) my brain does exhibit a certain epistemic state making me believe to be able to satisfy #1 & #2.
-2[anonymous]
It is no more a philosophical puzzle that needs dissolving than prices are a philosophical puzzle that need dissolving. I think that the concept of "free will" may indeed be more wholly a philosopher's invention, just as the concept of "qualia" is in my view wholly a philosopher's invention. But the everyday concepts from which it derives are not a philosopher's invention. I think that the everyday concept that philosophers turned into the concept of "free will" is the concept of the uncoerced and intentional act - a concept employed when we decide what to do about people who've annoyed us. We ask: did he mean to do it? Was he forced to do it? We have good reason for asking these questions. Philosophers invent bogus memes that we should try to free ourselves of. I think that "qualia" are one of those memes. But philosophers didn't invent morality. They simply talked a lot of nonsense about it. Morality is real in the sense that prices are real and in a sense that Cthulhu is not real. Some people talk about money in the way that you want to talk about morality, so that's a nice analogy to our discussion and I'll spend a couple of paragraphs on it. They say that the value of money is merely a collective delusion - that I value a dollar only because other people value a dollar, and that they value a dollar only because, ultimately, I value a dollar. So they say that it's all a great big collective delusion. They say that if people woke up one day and realized that a dollar was just a piece of paper, then we would stop using dollars. But while there is a grain of truth to that (especially about fiat money), there's also much that's misleading in it. Money is a medium of exchange that solves real problems. The value of money may be in a sense circular (i.e., it's valued by people because it's valued by people), but actually a lot of things are circular. A lot of natural adaptations are circular, for example symbiosis. Flowers are the way they are because bees are th
-5Peterdjones
1Morendil
Otherwise known as The True Knowledge.
0hairyfigment
You just did use it. Now, in this case we could probably rephrase your statement without too much trouble. But it does not seem at all obvious that doing this for all of our beliefs has positive expected value if we just want to maximize epistemic or instrumental rationality.
0endoself
I agree with most of this. The only reason for using the word morality is when talking to someone who does not realize that "Whatever you want." is the only answer that really can be given to the question of "What should I do next?". (Does that sentence make sense?) The main thing I have to add to this is what Eliezer describes here. The causal 'reason' that I want people to be happy is because of the desires in my brain, but the motivational 'reason' is because happiness matches {happiness + survival + justice + individuality + ...}, which sounds stupid, but that is how I make decisions; I look for what best matches against that pattern. These two reasons are important to distinguish - "If neutrinos make me believe '2 + 3 = 6', then 2 + 3 = 5". Here, people use that world 'morality' to describe an idealized version of their decision processes rather than to describe the desires embodied in their brain in order to emphasize that point, and also because of the large number of people that find this pseudo-equivalence nonobvious.
0XiXiDu
If you are confused about facts in the world then you are talking about epistemic rationality, why would one invoke 'morality' in this context?
-2endoself
I'm not sure I understand this. Are you objecting to my use of the word 'idealized', on the grounds that preferences and facts are different things and uncertainty is about facts? I would disagree with that. Someone might have two conflicting but very strong preferences. For example, someone might be opposed to homosexuality based on a feeling of disgust but also have a strong feeling that people should have some sort of right to self-determination. Upon sufficient thought, they may decide that the latter outweighs the former and may stop feeling disgust at homosexuals as a result of that introspection. I believe that this situation is one that occurs regularly among humans.
-1Peterdjones
But that is not the answer if someone wants to murder someone. What you have here is actually a reductio ad absurdam o the simplistic theory that morals=desires.
4NMJablonski
It only isn't the answer if you have a problem with that particular person being murdered, or perhaps an objection to killing as a principle. I also would object to wanton, chaotic, and criminal killings, but that is because I have a complex network of preferences that inform that objection, not because murder has some intrinsic property of absolute "wrongness". It is all preferences, and to think otherwise is the most frequent and absurd delusion still prevalent in rationalist communities. Even when a moralistic rationalist admits that moral truths and absolutes do not exist, they continue operating as if they do. They will say: "Well, there may not be absolute morality, but we can still tell which actions are best for (survival of human race / equality among humans / etc)." The survival of the human race is a preference! One which not all possible agents share, as we are all keenly aware of in our discussions of the threat posed by superintelligent AI's that don't share our values. There is no obligation for any mind to adopt any values. You can complain about that reality. You can insist that your preferences are the one, true, good and noble preferences, but no rational agent is obligated, in any empirical sense, to agree with you.
-5Peterdjones
3Amanojack
It just depends on if "should" is interpreted as "what would best fulfill my wants now" or "what would best fulfill your wants now" (or as something else entirely). We can't make sense of ethical language until we realize different people mean different things by it.
2Gray
And that's what morality always was in the first place. It's a way of getting other people to do otherwise than what they wanted to do. No one would be convinced by "I don't want you to kill people", but if you can convince someone that "It is wrong to kill people", then you've created conflict in that person's desires. I wonder, in the end, if people here truly want to "be rational" about morality. Myself, I'm not rational about morality, I go along with it. I don't critique it in my personal life. For instance, I refuse to murder someone, no matter how rational it might be to murder someone. Stick to epistemic rationality, and instrumental rationality, but avoid at all costs normative rationality, is my opinion.
3[anonymous]
This is a widespread but mistaken theory of morality. After all, we don't - and can't - convincingly say that just any old thing is "wrong". Here, I'll alternate between saying that actually wrong things are wrong, and saying that random things that you don't want are wrong. Actually wrong: "it's wrong to kill people." Yup, it is. You just don't want it: "it's wrong for you to arrest me just because I stabbed this innocent bystander to death." Yeah, right. Actually wrong: "it's wrong to mug people." No kidding. You just don't want it: "it's wrong for you to lock your door when you leave the house, because it's wrong for you to do anything to prevent me from coming into your house and taking everything you own to sell on the black market". Not convincing. If there were nothing more to things being wrong than that you use the word "wrong" to get people to do things, then there would be no difference between these four attempts to get people to do something. But there is: in the first and third case, the claim that the action is wrong is true (and therefore makes a convincing argument). In the second and fourth case, the claim is false (and therefore makes for an unconvincing argument). Sure, you can use the word "wrong" to get people to do things that you want them to do, but you can use a lot of words for that. For example, if you're somebody's mother and you want them to avoid driving when they're very sleepy, you can tell them that it's "dangerous" to drive in that condition. But as with the word "wrong", you can't use the word "dangerous" for just any situation, because it's not true in just any situation. When a proposed action is really dangerous - or really wrong - then you can use that fact to convince them not to pursue that action. But it's still a fact, independent of whether you use it to get other people to do things you want.
0Amanojack
Objective ethics on LW? I'm a little shocked. This whole post is basically argument from popularity (perhaps more accurate to call it argument from convincingness). Judgments of valuation may be universal or quasi-universal, but they are always subjective. Words like "right" and "wrong" (and "innocent" and "own") and other objective moralistic terms obscure this, so let me do some un-obscuring. You have this backwards: The claim makes a convincing argument (to you and many others), therefore you call the claim "right"; or the claim makes an unconvincing argument against the action, therefore you call the claim "wrong." Notice you had to tuck in the word "innocent," which already implies your conclusion that it is "actually wrong" to harm the bystander. Here you used the word "own," which again already implies your conclusion that it is wrong to steal it. Both examples are purely circular. Most people are disgusted by killing and theft, and they may be counterproductive from most people's points of view, but that is just about all we can say about the matter - and all we need to say. We are disgusted, so we ban such actions. Moral right and wrong are not objective facts. The fact that you and I subjectively experience a moral reaction to killing and theft may be an objective fact, but the wrongness itself is not objective, even though it may be universal or near-universal (that is, even though almost everyone else may feel the same way). Universal subjective valuation is not objective valuation (this latter term is, I contend, completely meaningless - unless someone can supply a useful definition). Although he was speaking in the context of economics, Ludwig von Mises gave the most succinct explanation of why all valuation is subjective when he said, "We originally want or desire an object not because it is agreeable or good, but we call it agreeable or good because we want or desire it."