Very interesting, but I do have one concern: this setup does nothing to prevent rationalization. Debates and arguments can facilitate learning in certain situations, but they don't help you notice when you are rationalizing instead of updating. Too much exposure to a learning style that emphasizes clever arguing over evenhandedness may end up being epistemically unhealthy in the long run.
See also: Against Devil's Advocacy
And indeed, the example given is its use in defending Judaism. This should raise red flags!
I've recently had a couple conversations with someone who does this a lot (in the context of Judaism). He appears to be quite smart and instrumentally rational in general, but his epistemology is so horrible as to make communication about theory selection just about impossible. The worst part is that his epistemology is heavily fortified, and there ain't nothin' you can do to talk some sense in- and I'm talking about non religious topics. It seems to be at least another level past that of the average Christian.
As Peterdjones said, a lot of it is metasuggestion. However, that is not the whole story, and there are ways to get the same effects without using the word "hypnosis".
On top of that, most of the interesting stuff just got buried under the label of "suggestion".
"Hypnosis" is a horribly vague word, but its basically all about learning how to talk to the different parts of the brain and engineering what you say as to get the different parts to respond the way you want. "Engineered placebo", perhaps.
What kind of answer are you looking for? I can't explain the whole lot in a short comment, but I'd consider writing a post on what researching hypnosis has taught me, if there's interest.
I trust in our ability to think up ways of avoiding this. The same way Jiu Jitsu, a lethal, murderous martial art, was redeveloped into Judo, a far less lethal version, I think we can use our sense of rationality in such a way as to develop an art of debate that doesn't need to rely on the Dark Arts to persuade the audience
I don't trust anyone's ability to avoid this pitfall. Rationality skills are often learned on the 5-second level, so it's paramount that we train ourselves to not instinctively rationalize things. In general, when persuation takes precedence over truth-seeking, then you're no longer talking about rationality, you're just talking about how to win debates. I agree that there are white-hat ways to debate and black-hat ways to debate and that public speaking is a valuable skill, but rationality is never about arguing for a particular conclusion. As a result, I think it's best to keep the two concepts separate and be very mindful of which thinking skills you are using for each activity.
I attended the world's only yeshiva that is explicitly more open to science and progress than the Orthodox movement for about a year. It is, e.g., co-educational, features openly gay and/or atheist faculty, and pays a certain amount of attention to higher literary criticism. Ironically, it is called the "Conservative Yeshiva in Jerusalem."
http://www.conservativeyeshiva.org/about/egalitarian-yeshiva-philosophy/
While there, I had a chevruta partner for about two months. It functioned exactly as touted in the Wikipedia article, except that ultimately my partner and I realized that we had a fundamental disagreement about epistemology -- he was willing to accept arguments with even minimal plausibility as long as they made him feel good, whereas I required significant plausibility. We parted ways with good will, but not mutual respect -- he saw my insistence on evidence as stingy, and I saw his openness to unsupported traditional claims as irresponsible.
I disagree with JoshuaZ's point about affective death spirals, because, at least at my yeshiva, time in chevruta alternated on a 1:1 basis with time spent in 'seminar' or 'shiur' groups of 10-12 students led by a senior facult...
It is better to be your own chavruta, to check yourself, to ask whether, not why. Being paired with another person of similar level to catch your clever arguing makes it feels more like a competition, makes you want to make your clever arguments more subtle so you get away with them, rather than relinquish them.
I endorse the self-management model of sharpness. It's sort of like the Pratchett quote:
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, Your Grace?"
"I know that one," said Vimes. "Who watches the watchmen? Me, Mr. Pessimal."
"Ah, but who watches you, Your Grace?" said the inspector with a brief little smile.
"I do that, too. All the time."
When the idea of chavrutas came up in an earlier discussion with raw power, I noted that the system doesn't always work out the way it is intended, especially when weird social issues come into play.
Having a lot of experience with this system, it does have pros and cons. One serious con as far as LW should be concerned is two-person meta-affective death spirals. What I mean by this is not affective death spirals so much (although that can be a problem) but reinforcing various types of arguments. To use a Less Wrongish example, one could have two chavrutas who really like anthropic arguments. They might focus on anthropic issues to the exclusion of other types of relevant evidence. Continued for long enough, this sort of thing could result in people giving a lot more weight to some approaches which are completely disproportionate to the approaches' actual usefulness.
I have one of these, and I highly value our relationship. My friend and I have very basic disagreements in our worldview: I'm a mystic, and he's a rationalist. We spend our time working through our differences. He's done more than anybody else to make me question and revise my views on things. I think I've become significantly more correct, and a little bit wiser, due to his influence. He's also the reason I'm here on Less Wrong.
It's actually surprisingly hard to get to a point with somebody where you respect them and listen to them, despite having fundame...
I'd like to give this a try on a specific topic.
I'm Catholic and of late not particularly happy about it. Through reading much of the LessWrong material and noticing the ubiquity of atheists here, my confidence estimates in the relevant religious questions have declined. In response, I spent a few days searching online for pro-atheist or at least pro-agnostic-versus-Catholic evidence and ended up very disappointed in what Google turned up. It's an amusing and puzzling experience to be disappointed about one's own deconversion failure.
I don't want book r...
As a result of this article, I'm seeking a Chavruta. I'll report back on the effectiveness of this method.
Kahneman and Tversky appear to have worked as a great chavrusa, but I do wonder how rare this is
http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/8od/good_interview_with_kahneman_link/
Reading LW (and everything else) with my husband has helped both of us think through things more clearly, I think. It would probably work better for debate/learning purposes if we started out more different from each other, but we fairly often point out flaws in the other's thinking.
I keep looking for someone like that. It would be nice to have someone to debate with, and would probably motivate me to do more research. Usually, I just discuss new things I hear, or beliefs I hold, with my boyfriend or my roommate.
This sounds like a pretty cool idea.
One issue I find with it is that I've been updating my political and other views somewhat frequently. Getting someone with the opposite view would be somewhat odd, and probably most of what we debate would be specific ideas that don't particularly correlate with each other, so I might need more than three.
Along axes that I don't have strong opinions, it would probably be more of a discussion, which would still be cool.
It totally sounds worth a try though.
You've been on Less Wrong for a while. You've become very good at a lot of stuff. Specifically, arguing. You win arguments. All the time. Effortlessly. And the worst part is, you often win for the wrong reasons. Perhaps there were counters to your propositions. Perhaps you failed to mention a very important, non trivial premise, and your public accepted your shaky proposition with as much enthusiasm as if it had been rock-solid, if not more.
They have failed you. You now know that, if you want to remain objective, to keep your grip on reality, to keep your mind sharp and your guard high, you need a Worthy Opponent, someone who's on the same level as you, who's as different in ideology and character from you as possible, who will not hesitate to point out any and every flaw your propositions would have, and would in fact go out of their way to contradict you, just for fun. This intellectual sparring will strengthen you both, and make you more careful in actual debate, on the public arena, whether you choose to use the Dark Arts or not.
Quoth JoshuaZ: In many forms of Judaisms one often studies with a chavruta, with whom one will debate and engage the same texts. Such individuals are generally chosen to be about the same background level and intelligence, often for precisely the sort of reason you touch upon [I paraphrased that in the two first paragraphs] (as well as it helping encourage them to each try their hardest).
A couple of interesting excerpts from the wikipedia artilce:
Unlike conventional classroom learning, in which a teacher lectures to the student and the student memorizes and repeats the information back in tests, and unlike an academic academy, where students do individual research,[5] chavruta learning challenges the student to analyze and explain the material, point out the errors in his partner's reasoning, and question and sharpen each other's ideas, often arriving at entirely new insights into the meaning of the text.[1][6]
A chavruta helps a student stay awake, keep his mind focused on the learning, sharpen his reasoning powers, develop his thoughts into words, and organize his thoughts into logical arguments.[7] This type of learning also imparts precision and clarity into ideas that would otherwise remain vague.[8] Having to listen to, analyze and respond to another's opinion also inculcates respect for others. It is considered poor manners to interrupt one's chavruta.[9]
In the yeshiva setting, students prepare for and review the shiur (lecture) with their chavrutas during morning, afternoon, and evening study sessions known as sedarim.[2] On average, a yeshiva student spends ten hours per day learning in chavruta.[11] Since having the right chavruta makes all the difference between having a good year and a bad year, class rebbis may switch chavrutas eight or nine times in a class of 20 boys until the partnerships work for both sides.[12] If a chavruta gets stuck on a difficult point or needs further clarification, they can turn to the rabbis, lecturers, or a sho'el u'mashiv (literally, "ask and answer", a rabbi who is intimately familiar with the Talmudic text being studied) who are available to them in the study hall during sedarim. In women's yeshiva programs, teachers are on hand to guide the chavrutas.[13]
Chavruta learning tends to be loud and animated, as the study partners read the Talmudic text and the commentaries aloud to each other and then analyze, question, debate, and defend their points of view to arrive at a mutual understanding of the text. In the heat of discussion, they may wave their hands or even shout at each another.[14] Depending on the size of the yeshiva, dozens or even hundreds of chavrutas can be heard discussing and debating each other's opinions.[15][16] One of the skills of chavruta learning is the ability to block out all other discussions in the study hall and focus on one's study partner alone.[2]
In the yeshiva world, the brightest students are highly desirable as chavrutas.[17] However, there are pros and cons to learning with chavrutas who are stronger, weaker, or equal in knowledge and ability to the student. A stronger chavruta will correct and fill in the student's knowledge and help him improve his learning techniques, acting more like a teacher. With a chavruta who is equal in knowledge and ability, the student is forced to prove his point with logic rather than by right of seniority, which improves his ability to think logically, analyze other people's opinions objectively, and accept criticism. With a weaker chavruta, who often worries over and questions each step, the student is forced to understand the material thoroughly, refine and organize his thoughts in a logical structure, present his viewpoint clearly, and be ready to justify each and every point. The stronger chavruta helps the student acquire a great deal of information, but the weaker chavruta helps the student learn how to learn. Yeshiva students are usually advised to have one of each of these three types of chavrutas in order to develop on all three levels.[7]
Given the pattern their interactions have followed online in the past, one could easily think of classifying Yudkowsky and Hanson's relationship as an informal chavruta. And perhaps we should follow their example: Endoself expressed the desire for such a companion, and suggested that we at Less Wrong establish some similar institution.
Honestly, I don't just think this institution should be introduced into Less Wrong. I think it need to be introduced into every educational system. The way the article is written (though I suspect bias since there isn't even the slightest criticism), it sounds like the most freaking awesome way of studying ever.
Now, here in Lesswrong, we can usually count on each other to read the arguments properly and point out any fauts there may be. It's kind of a collective effort. Therefore, I'm not quite sure we need such an institution on the site proper, since we seem to function like a huge hydra of a chavruta right now. Which we shall demonstrate right now, as usual, in the comments section, where I'll be impatiently waiting for feedback from both Jews and Gentiles.